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Coronavirus and Walt Disney World general discussion

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mmascari

Well-Known Member
In my opinion, the only useful information gained by the percentage of positive tests is to ensure that you have enough testing capacity. Without random sampling it doesn't really provide that accurate a picture of community spread on its own.

For example, Miami-Dade County has a new case positivity around 5% on average the past two weeks. The University of Miami which is located in the heart of Miami-Dade County requires all people that step onto campus to be tested once every two weeks. For the 30 days ending 10/14 when this policy was put into place, the positivity has been 0.74%. The latter is overall not specifically new case.

The data from the University of Miami testing is a much better approximation of disease prevalence and is much more valuable to determine the trends, especially looking at week over week type numbers. I guess since they require once every two week testing the best comparison would be two week periods. The last two 14 day periods in this data were 0.68% and 0.62%. This seems to indicate that the rate of spread hasn't really changed in the past month.
The number is more about understanding where spread is occurring not just how prevalent spread is. The low number at the University of Miami means that for the population of people at the University of Miami there is a high understanding of where spread is occurring. That they know who is infected and are able to take steps to isolate those people and work to contain the spread. Which seems kind of obvious if they're testing everyone every two weeks, they'll find infected people faster.

The University of Miami is a subset of the population of Miami-Dade County. The higher number for Miami-Dade County in general means there's less understanding of where spread is occurring across the larger expanded population that's not overlapping with the university. The lower understanding means there is less ability to isolate infected people and less ability to contain community spread.

I don't think you can take the University of Miami number and use it to extrapolate to all of Miami-Dade County just because the have more data points. That's kind of the point, without the data points, the same actions cannot be taken with the larger group.

For example, a person that only interacts with people at the university is less likely to come in contact with an infected person because infected people are identified and isolated quickly. Presumably, they're doing good contact tracing on positives not just waiting for the next testing cycle. It's not impossible to come in contact, there's still spread before cases are found and it's not a bubble there's still people that interact outside of the university.

While a person that only interacts with people not at the university is more likely to come in contact with an infected person because there's less knowledge of who is infected and hence less isolation.
 

baymenxpac

Well-Known Member
If the number of COVID-19 deaths are inflated then how do you explain the excess deaths every week since late-March? The CDC chart I linked to yesterday should be enough to end any suspicion of "inflated numbers."

just want to chime in here:

excess deaths are a good measure to use, but as with most numbers, it isn't perfect and there is some important nuance that shouldn't be ignored.

for example, there has been some research around the idea that countries that had mild flu seasons the last two years (as the US did) were more susceptible to COVID deaths, since there was a larger population of very frail patients for COVID to affect. remember, the average age of a COVID death in the US is higher than the average life expectancy. this doesn't mean, "eh, they're old, who cares?" it just means that elderly patients are more susceptible to any respiratory virus, and thus, we need to take that into consideration to gauge overall severity of illness.

also, not every excess death is a COVID death. inflated death numbers here in the northeast undoubtedly can be partially attributed to the "vent hard, vent early" course of treatment that the WHO recommended that ended up doing far more harm than good. i won't go too far into the nursing home problems that exist in my home state and its closest neighbor, as they've been well documented. the biggest problem with NY though is that state health department only counts a death as a nursing home/acute care facility death IF the death occurred at the nursing home. so nursing home patients that went to the hospital and died en route or at the hospital are NOT counted as a nursing home death by the state of NY. that's a problem, because it overstates the risk to the general population.

also, i know people hate to hear this, but it's true: our reaction to the virus caused (and will continue to cause) death. people that delayed care for heart attacks and strokes for fear of going to the hospital. people that delayed cancer screenings that will have their cancer found in later stages, and thus, have worse outcomes. alzheimer deaths have skyrocketed, and those deaths are very likely due to isolation and/or caregivers being too overwhelmed/too scared to offer care. CMS just released a study (covered in reuters) that 21% of the medicare population (that's ~12 million seniors 65+) decided to forego non-COVID care due to the pandemic, the most commonly cited reason was not wanted to risk being at a medical facility.

healthcare occurs on a continuum. our (in my opinion) myopic focus on one virus -- COVID -- has caused far greater loss of life than COVID ever could. remember that when you inevitably see some study (one is being pushed by eric deng on twitter right now, which is just an embarrassment) that claims we're undercounting COVID deaths. it's why public health messaging needs to be pragmatic, and -- at all costs -- avoid inciting wide-scale panic.

the other issue is the 'with' vs. 'of' issue, which is real. PCR is very, very sensitive testing; great for surveillance, crummy for clinical diagnosis. it works by taking your sample and amplifying it to find microscopic viral RNA. the higher your "cycle threshold" is (or how many times your nasal swab sample has been amplified), the less likely you are to have contagious virus. why that matters?

there's no national standard of counting COVID deaths. so, for some states, any death within 30-to-60 (varies on states) of a positive PCR test is counted as a COVID death. in other states, they don't count deaths if there is an obvious, non-related cause (accident, poisoning, etc.), but there ARE over 6,000 of those types of deaths in the national death count.

that's not really the bulk of the issue though. the issue is when you pop a positive PCR, it's entirely possible you cleared the virus. (provided you have a Ct score over 30, which 97% of positive PCR tests at this level have been found to contain no contagious virus). if you die of end stage renal failure 20 days later after a positive PCR at a 33 cycle count, this wasn't a COVID death. you died of end stage renal failure (which is a very grim state of living). but in many states, you'll have COVID listed as a secondary cause, and be counted as a death. that's skewed. it's like saying, "every fly ball out of the infield is a hit," and after the top of the 1st when the braves bloop a single and then fly out to right three times, you say they got four hits. not so much.

is this a conspiracy to overcount deaths? i don't think so. i just think it's a data integrity problem, and combined with the widespread fear that public health officials stoked in the spring, it's led to some panicky policy from some very craven politicians.
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
I mean, medical billing is a voodoo art under the best of conditions... The people doing front line coding rarely know what the current negotiated deal this week is or even which insurance or supplemental plan will actually wind up fulfilling a claim... I’m sure covid has thrown more then a few wrenches in that already crazy system.

Never attribute to malice what can be easily explained by confusion or incompetence.
Different people. Cause of death isn’t being determined by the people doing billing. The scale of the accusations is also too big. Sure, there are incompetent doctors who are misdiagnosing people but for there to be a substantial problem with the reported deaths most doctors would have to be incompetent. I’m not sure most doctors being incompetent is better than most doctors being addicted to the thrill of fraud.

Honestly, all of these claims add up to modern medicine being a total sham. A system built only on greed that just makes things up regardless of the outcome.
 

DCBaker

Premium Member
Numbers are out - there were 94 new reported deaths.

Screen Shot 2020-10-16 at 11.47.55 AM.png
Screen Shot 2020-10-16 at 11.48.07 AM.png
Screen Shot 2020-10-16 at 11.48.19 AM.png
Screen Shot 2020-10-16 at 11.48.29 AM.png
 

MisterPenguin

President of Animal Kingdom
Premium Member
just want to chime in here:

excess deaths are a good measure to use, but as with most numbers, it isn't perfect and there is some important nuance that shouldn't be ignored.

for example, there has been some research around the idea that countries that had mild flu seasons the last two years (as the US did) were more susceptible to COVID deaths, since there was a larger population of very frail patients for COVID to affect. remember, the average age of a COVID death in the US is higher than the average life expectancy. this doesn't mean, "eh, they're old, who cares?" it just means that elderly patients are more susceptible to any respiratory virus, and thus, we need to take that into consideration to gauge overall severity of illness.

also, not every excess death is a COVID death. inflated death numbers here in the northeast undoubtedly can be partially attributed to the "vent hard, vent early" course of treatment that the WHO recommended that ended up doing far more harm than good. i won't go too far into the nursing home problems that exist in my home state and its closest neighbor, as they've been well documented. the biggest problem with NY though is that state health department only counts a death as a nursing home/acute care facility death IF the death occurred at the nursing home. so nursing home patients that went to the hospital and died en route or at the hospital are NOT counted as a nursing home death by the state of NY. that's a problem, because it overstates the risk to the general population.

also, i know people hate to hear this, but it's true: our reaction to the virus caused (and will continue to cause) death. people that delayed care for heart attacks and strokes for fear of going to the hospital. people that delayed cancer screenings that will have their cancer found in later stages, and thus, have worse outcomes. alzheimer deaths have skyrocketed, and those deaths are very likely due to isolation and/or caregivers being too overwhelmed/too scared to offer care. CMS just released a study (covered in reuters) that 21% of the medicare population (that's ~12 million seniors 65+) decided to forego non-COVID care due to the pandemic, the most commonly cited reason was not wanted to risk being at a medical facility.

healthcare occurs on a continuum. our (in my opinion) myopic focus on one virus -- COVID -- has caused far greater loss of life than COVID ever could. remember that when you inevitably see some study (one is being pushed by eric deng on twitter right now, which is just an embarrassment) that claims we're undercounting COVID deaths. it's why public health messaging needs to be pragmatic, and -- at all costs -- avoid inciting wide-scale panic.

the other issue is the 'with' vs. 'of' issue, which is real. PCR is very, very sensitive testing; great for surveillance, crummy for clinical diagnosis. it works by taking your sample and amplifying it to find microscopic viral RNA. the higher your "cycle threshold" is (or how many times your nasal swab sample has been amplified), the less likely you are to have contagious virus. why that matters?

there's no national standard of counting COVID deaths. so, for some states, any death within 30-to-60 (varies on states) of a positive PCR test is counted as a COVID death. in other states, they don't count deaths if there is an obvious, non-related cause (accident, poisoning, etc.), but there ARE over 6,000 of those types of deaths in the national death count.

that's not really the bulk of the issue though. the issue is when you pop a positive PCR, it's entirely possible you cleared the virus. (provided you have a Ct score over 30, which 97% of positive PCR tests at this level have been found to contain no contagious virus). if you die of end stage renal failure 20 days later after a positive PCR at a 33 cycle count, this wasn't a COVID death. you died of end stage renal failure (which is a very grim state of living). but in many states, you'll have COVID listed as a secondary cause, and be counted as a death. that's skewed. it's like saying, "every fly ball out of the infield is a hit," and after the top of the 1st when the braves bloop a single and then fly out to right three times, you say they got four hits. not so much.

is this a conspiracy to overcount deaths? i don't think so. i just think it's a data integrity problem, and combined with the widespread fear that public health officials stoked in the spring, it's led to some panicky policy from some very craven politicians.

"Excess deaths is a great indicator, but now I'm gonna tell how it's all wrong."
 

zurj

Active Member
That is a standard response when someone can't provide evidence to back up a claim. If you cannot provide facts to back your opinion, then please stop posting it.
Suggesting that there has been a concerted effort to drown out the voices of doctors who speak out against the narrative is a standard response? There is plenty of evidence that doctors were being pressured to label deaths as covid related. Because I'm not doing research for you and posting it here does not mean there is not plenty of evidence to back up my statement.

I'm not required to post a link to a source in order to voice what there is plenty of evidence for. You can look at the headlines of the last two days as proof that social media companies will do as they please to drown out stories that disagree with there narratives.
 

Parker in NYC

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
Suggesting that there has been a concerted effort to drown out the voices of doctors who speak out against the narrative is a standard response? There is plenty of evidence that doctors were being pressured to label deaths as covid related. Because I'm not doing research for you and posting it here does not mean there is not plenty of evidence to back up my statement.

I'm not required to post a link to a source in order to voice what there is plenty of evidence for. You can look at the headlines of the last two days as proof that social media companies will do as they please to drown out stories that disagree with there narratives.
My favorite argument: "I won't do your work for you," which is usually followed by a 🤦‍♀️ (depending on the poster).
 

MisterPenguin

President of Animal Kingdom
Premium Member
Rather then counter the point? I mean, most of the excess deaths are due to COVID I am sure, but I am sure some of them were from patients unable to or too fearful to receive care.
The number of excess deaths far exceed those attributed to COVID indicating that COVID deaths are actually being undercounted.


1602864259590.png


The lengths people will go to to discredit health officials and medical personnel at international, federal, state, county, and local levels just to make the case "it's not that bad" is astounding. The posting of conspiracies that would require tens of thousands of people all over the world to be complicit without any whistle blowers (with credible evidence) coming forward is insane.

There were reports and pictures of corpses piling up in streets of Italy.... "uh... maybe we have a strong flu this year..." Astounding.
 

Heppenheimer

Well-Known Member
Notice how ya'll keep talking about conspiracy theories and not news.

Remdesivir, not helpful for severe cases. Mortality rate between the group that received the drug 11%, control group 11.2%

Not surprised on interferon, since it was only used in trials and didn't have good safety data in MERS or SARS.

The jury is not quite out yet for remdesivir completely, since this study only looked at mortality. It's main use thus far is that it seems to keep people off of ventilators, although the data on this isn't exactly strong at this point in time.
 

Chip Chipperson

Well-Known Member
just want to chime in here:

excess deaths are a good measure to use, but as with most numbers, it isn't perfect and there is some important nuance that shouldn't be ignored.

for example, there has been some research around the idea that countries that had mild flu seasons the last two years (as the US did) were more susceptible to COVID deaths, since there was a larger population of very frail patients for COVID to affect. remember, the average age of a COVID death in the US is higher than the average life expectancy. this doesn't mean, "eh, they're old, who cares?" it just means that elderly patients are more susceptible to any respiratory virus, and thus, we need to take that into consideration to gauge overall severity of illness.

also, not every excess death is a COVID death. inflated death numbers here in the northeast undoubtedly can be partially attributed to the "vent hard, vent early" course of treatment that the WHO recommended that ended up doing far more harm than good. i won't go too far into the nursing home problems that exist in my home state and its closest neighbor, as they've been well documented. the biggest problem with NY though is that state health department only counts a death as a nursing home/acute care facility death IF the death occurred at the nursing home. so nursing home patients that went to the hospital and died en route or at the hospital are NOT counted as a nursing home death by the state of NY. that's a problem, because it overstates the risk to the general population.

also, i know people hate to hear this, but it's true: our reaction to the virus caused (and will continue to cause) death. people that delayed care for heart attacks and strokes for fear of going to the hospital. people that delayed cancer screenings that will have their cancer found in later stages, and thus, have worse outcomes. alzheimer deaths have skyrocketed, and those deaths are very likely due to isolation and/or caregivers being too overwhelmed/too scared to offer care. CMS just released a study (covered in reuters) that 21% of the medicare population (that's ~12 million seniors 65+) decided to forego non-COVID care due to the pandemic, the most commonly cited reason was not wanted to risk being at a medical facility.

healthcare occurs on a continuum. our (in my opinion) myopic focus on one virus -- COVID -- has caused far greater loss of life than COVID ever could. remember that when you inevitably see some study (one is being pushed by eric deng on twitter right now, which is just an embarrassment) that claims we're undercounting COVID deaths. it's why public health messaging needs to be pragmatic, and -- at all costs -- avoid inciting wide-scale panic.

the other issue is the 'with' vs. 'of' issue, which is real. PCR is very, very sensitive testing; great for surveillance, crummy for clinical diagnosis. it works by taking your sample and amplifying it to find microscopic viral RNA. the higher your "cycle threshold" is (or how many times your nasal swab sample has been amplified), the less likely you are to have contagious virus. why that matters?

there's no national standard of counting COVID deaths. so, for some states, any death within 30-to-60 (varies on states) of a positive PCR test is counted as a COVID death. in other states, they don't count deaths if there is an obvious, non-related cause (accident, poisoning, etc.), but there ARE over 6,000 of those types of deaths in the national death count.

that's not really the bulk of the issue though. the issue is when you pop a positive PCR, it's entirely possible you cleared the virus. (provided you have a Ct score over 30, which 97% of positive PCR tests at this level have been found to contain no contagious virus). if you die of end stage renal failure 20 days later after a positive PCR at a 33 cycle count, this wasn't a COVID death. you died of end stage renal failure (which is a very grim state of living). but in many states, you'll have COVID listed as a secondary cause, and be counted as a death. that's skewed. it's like saying, "every fly ball out of the infield is a hit," and after the top of the 1st when the braves bloop a single and then fly out to right three times, you say they got four hits. not so much.

is this a conspiracy to overcount deaths? i don't think so. i just think it's a data integrity problem, and combined with the widespread fear that public health officials stoked in the spring, it's led to some panicky policy from some very craven politicians.

I'm not saying that EVERY excess death is due to COVID, but the vast majority of them are (67% through August 1, according to a JAMA study - https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2771761) and that's why the curve aligns so well with the initial spike in places like NY and NJ and subsequent spikes in places like FL. Also, in your example of someone dying from renal failure 20 days after a positive test, it's entirely possible or even likely that COVID-19 was the cause of the renal failure. If you mean that they already had the problem prior to contracting COVID-19, then it's still a possibility that the virus sped up the process - but it's also possible that this is a person who would fall under "expected deaths" calculations, since the CDC does take into account the typical number of deaths from various causes when determining how many deaths are expected. According to that JAMA article, there was a 3-week increase in expected deaths from heart disease (week ending 3/21 through the week ending 4/11) that coincided with the initial surge in the northeast. There was also an increase in deaths among dementia/Alzheimer's patients that coincided with the surge in FL (week ending 6/6 through week ending 7/25). Outside of that, there has been no statistically significant occurrence of excess deaths from any other causes.

In an interesting note, the authors state that excess deaths have been spread out longer in states that reopened earlier. As a comparison, I looked at the CDC charts for NJ and FL. NJ had excess deaths every week from the week ending 3/21 through the week ending 6/27. FL has had excess deaths every week from the week ending 4/18 through 9/26 (the most recent week listed is the week ended 10/3 and they state that recent weeks are incomplete due to delays in reporting).

In any event, there is no credible evidence that the death count is being inflated - especially intentionally - and credible evidence to suggest that it is NOT being inflated.
 

baymenxpac

Well-Known Member
I'm not saying that EVERY excess death is due to COVID, but the vast majority of them are (67% through August 1, according to a JAMA study - https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2771761) and that's why the curve aligns so well with the initial spike in places like NY and NJ and subsequent spikes in places like FL. Also, in your example of someone dying from renal failure 20 days after a positive test, it's entirely possible or even likely that COVID-19 was the cause of the renal failure. If you mean that they already had the problem prior to contracting COVID-19, then it's still a possibility that the virus sped up the process - but it's also possible that this is a person who would fall under "expected deaths" calculations, since the CDC does take into account the typical number of deaths from various causes when determining how many deaths are expected. According to that JAMA article, there was a 3-week increase in expected deaths from heart disease (week ending 3/21 through the week ending 4/11) that coincided with the initial surge in the northeast. There was also an increase in deaths among dementia/Alzheimer's patients that coincided with the surge in FL (week ending 6/6 through week ending 7/25). Outside of that, there has been no statistically significant occurrence of excess deaths from any other causes.

In an interesting note, the authors state that excess deaths have been spread out longer in states that reopened earlier. As a comparison, I looked at the CDC charts for NJ and FL. NJ had excess deaths every week from the week ending 3/21 through the week ending 6/27. FL has had excess deaths every week from the week ending 4/18 through 9/26 (the most recent week listed is the week ended 10/3 and they state that recent weeks are incomplete due to delays in reporting).

In any event, there is no credible evidence that the death count is being inflated - especially intentionally - and credible evidence to suggest that it is NOT being inflated.
i mean, no, that's not credible evidence that it's not being inflated (and when i say inflated, i mean crudely classified and counted). in the renal failure situation, what you're driving at is "pull ahead" deaths, which sure...that's fair. undoubtedly, there are vast number of people in the very frail category that died in march and april that may would have instead died in july or august. but that doesn't make COVID the driving cause of death. as far as those three week increase in heart disease deaths, it's very likely that those deaths are lockdown/delay of care deaths; people that weren't going to the hospital with chest pains that died at home. that's not a COVID death. that's a bad public policy death. that's a panic death.

what i'm simply saying is this: there's nuance, and it's being lost by hastily ascribing all excess deaths to COVID.
 

SamusAranX

Well-Known Member
There is still hope that Remdesivir can speed up recovery time for patients who are not quite so serious, and decrease the number of patients who eventually need ventilation or ECMO. It's just not a magic bullet.


I don't think we ever will have a magic bullet. COVID will eventually become manageable like flu/colds. Vaccinate, treat symptoms, lather rinse and repeat.
 

Chip Chipperson

Well-Known Member
i mean, no, that's not credible evidence that it's not being inflated (and when i say inflated, i mean crudely classified and counted). in the renal failure situation, what you're driving at is "pull ahead" deaths, which sure...that's fair. undoubtedly, there are vast number of people in the very frail category that died in march and april that may would have instead died in july or august. but that doesn't make COVID the driving cause of death. as far as those three week increase in heart disease deaths, it's very likely that those deaths are lockdown/delay of care deaths; people that weren't going to the hospital with chest pains that died at home. that's not a COVID death. that's a bad public policy death. that's a panic death.

what i'm simply saying is this: there's nuance, and it's being lost by hastily ascribing all excess deaths to COVID.

If it's not credible evidence, then what is the explanation for the increase coinciding with the spread of the pandemic here? And how do you explain the JAMA study attributing 2/3 of the excess deaths (as of August 1) to COVID-19? There are 2 possibilities to explain the large number of excess deaths - either there is a widespread conspiracy to falsely attribute deaths to COVID-19 at the same time that there is an otherwise unexplained surge of deaths in this country OR the COVID-19 death totals are accurate. As for saying someone who died of COVID-19 in March or April "may have" died in July or August instead? That completely ignores that every single week since March 28 has had excess deaths and that if these people had other ailments that would have caused their imminent death then they are likely already factored into the "expected deaths" figure. At some point, you have to recognize that there has yet to be even a single week where it can be said, "Wow, way fewer people died than expected!" If there was some significant number of deaths attributed to COVID-19 that were really just people who were about to die soon anyway, then there would eventually be a period where we fall way below the expected deaths over the course of weeks or months.

Also, people in the northeast weren't prohibited from going to the hospital or doctor for medical treatment due to lockdowns. It's unfortunate that people were afraid to go to the ER because of the COVID-19 surge in the area at that time, but no policy caused that. There was no executive order forbidding people from going to the hospital. If anything, locking down when we did brought an end to those situations as people felt safer seeking medical attention again. I also never claimed they were COVID deaths. I specifically stated that they were not COVID-19 deaths. They fall in the 33% of excess deaths not caused by COVID-19 infections.
 
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