On layoffs, very bad attendance, and Iger's legacy being one of disgrace

[flynnibus]

The Internet didn't kill Epcot. It only killed Future World. World Showcase will be killed by Virtual Reality.

Imagine what World Showcase would be to adults these days if Disney hadn't come up with the festivals... It's biggest draw and awe is completely watered down now. No one walks into Italy anymore and is awed by the architecture... no one walks through England and feels like they are near the tower. It's a backdrop... no longer a 'travel the world' experience. People have had far too much exposure beyond the photos or grainy TV that the boomer generation grew up with.

Futureworld aged out in 8 years due to the rapid advance of technology. WS took longer, but it's premise as a culture doorway was surpassed by the same technology and social advances that 'shrunk' distances around the world.

 

[_caleb]

Imagine what World Showcase would be to adults these days if Disney hadn't come up with the festivals... It's biggest draw and awe is completely watered down now. No one walks into Italy anymore and is awed by the architecture... no one walks through England and feels like they are near the tower. It's a backdrop... no longer a 'travel the world' experience. People have had far too much exposure beyond the photos or grainy TV that the boomer generation grew up with.

Futureworld aged out in 8 years due to the rapid advance of technology. WS took longer, but it's premise as a culture doorway was surpassed by the same technology and social advances that 'shrunk' distances around the world.

Are you aware of the Instagram effect on travel?

Schofield’s Insurance found that 40% in the ages of 18-33 years are choosing their travel location based on the Instagrammability (how worth is it to post it on Instagram) of the location (Hayhurst, 2017).

Why wouldn't the same apply to World Showcase?

 

[the.dreamfinder]

Imagine what World Showcase would be to adults these days if Disney hadn't come up with the festivals... It's biggest draw and awe is completely watered down now. No one walks into Italy anymore and is awed by the architecture... no one walks through England and feels like they are near the tower. It's a backdrop... no longer a 'travel the world' experience. People have had far too much exposure beyond the photos or grainy TV that the boomer generation grew up with.

Futureworld aged out in 8 years due to the rapid advance of technology. WS took longer, but it's premise as a culture doorway was surpassed by the same technology and social advances that 'shrunk' distances around the world.

And disinformation/misinformation and “engagement” driven platforms have driven us straight into “a flood of electronic babble”!

 

[Brer Panther]

why did people blame Chapek and not Iger?

If the "Iger and Chapek are arguing over whether or not to keep Splash Mountain" thing is true, I think we might've misjudged Chapek.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

This couldn’t possibly be due to an organized effort on social media and fan sites.

The legend of Iger has always been greatly exaggerated...

It’s this weird dynamic where all 3 of the vocal groups that comment on Disney are lined up.

 

[UNCgolf]

Remember when epcot was designed, viewing multiple countries meant going to the library and flipping through National Geographic. There was no form of film on demand... people didnt evn really have VHS yet.. and most people had just a handful of tv stations... not hundreds. Nevermind the lack of ethnic foods, etc.

Completely differnet experience to what a a millienial would have had...

I don't think the availability of ethnic foods has changed significantly. If you live in a big city, there are plenty of options and have been for years. If you don't, you're a lot less likely to have those options. I also don't think being able to look up countries on the Internet really affects the World Showcase -- especially since it's still pretty popular. Future World is the area of EPCOT that saw a dramatic decline; not World Showcase.

The other reason this argument doesn't pass muster to me is that EPCOT's collapse really happened before the rise of widespread, fast Internet. Sure, the Internet existed in the mid 90s. But the majority of people in the US didn't have home Internet access until the 2000s, and it was closer to 2010 before the majority of the country had high-speed Internet at home.

 

[flynnibus]

Are you aware of the Instagram effect on travel?

Schofield’s Insurance found that 40% in the ages of 18-33 years are choosing their travel location based on the Instagrammability (how worth is it to post it on Instagram) of the location (Hayhurst, 2017).

Why wouldn't the same apply to World Showcase?

Connect the dots... people not just want to take a picture, the instagram world wants to STAND OUT. No one is discovering or standing out by taking a instagram photo of the EPCOT version of the tower of london... or what everyone can pickout as the undersized WDW knockoff vs the grand originals.

 

[Brer Oswald]

The few dozen people online who follow and care about such things are so easily swayed...

I’m not sure you’ve been on these platforms...
It’s far more than a few dozen. Far less than the amount that shows in the parks. About as much to fill a petition for a ride retheme

 

[MisterPenguin]

I’m not sure you’ve been on these platforms...
It’s far more than a few dozen. Far less than the amount that shows in the parks. About as much to fill a petition for a ride retheme

Yeah, but how many of those petition signers know whose office to picket: Josh, Bob, Bob, or BoD?

 

[yensidtlaw1969]

Which is worse, the Executive who can’t be bothered to even try to make a good impression, or the one who can’t seem to focus on anything other than his own reputation?

Depends on their results, I suppose.

 

[Brer Oswald]

Yeah, but how many of those petition signers know whose office to picket: Josh, Bob, Bob, or BoD?

They don’t know who’s office to picket. They just go to Chapek’s office (no matter what chair he’s in) while “stanning” Iger And Josh.

 

[flynnibus]

I don't think the availability of ethnic foods has changed significantly. If you live in a big city, there are plenty of options and have been for years. If you don't, you're a lot less likely to have those options.

Exactly the point - in 1980 unless you were in an ethnic neighborhood or diverse mixing bowl of a city... the most exotic 'ethnic' food most people had access to was the chinese carry out in town. Now, there is a nation wide franchise for most.. and every food court in America will have a variety of tastes. It's no longer Sbarro... Chique and boutique is in...

I also don't think being able to look up countries on the Internet really affects the World Showcase -- especially since it's still pretty popular. Future World is the area of EPCOT that saw a dramatic decline; not World Showcase.

It's not just 'looking them up on the internet'. Look at your TV shows, movies, etc.. think the media and mediums people are surrounded by every day of the week. The era of 1000 cable channels... the advent of high quality media. The ability to get virtually anything to your doorstep in a week. The rise of other 'replicas' like Vegas, etc. The point is WS originally presented something that was foreign, different, otherwise new and exciting to you.

All those things erode the impact of something like WS. Imagine world showcase without the DDP, Illuminations, or the festivals. Do you really think it is the draw and has the significance today compared to what it was in the early 80s?

 

[MisterPenguin]

They don’t know who’s office to picket. They just go to Chapek’s office (no matter what chair he’s in) while “stanning” Iger And Josh.

Pop culture has indeed taught us to spot the evil mastermind in any organization based on follicle count.

 

[UNCgolf]

Exactly the point - in 1980 unless you were in an ethnic neighborhood or diverse mixing bowl of a city... the most exotic 'ethnic' food most people had access to was the chinese carry out in town. Now, there is a nation wide franchise for most.. and every food court in America will have a variety of tastes. It's no longer Sbarro... Chique and boutique is in...



It's not just 'looking them up on the internet'. Look at your TV shows, movies, etc.. think the media and mediums people are surrounded by every day of the week. The era of 1000 cable channels... the advent of high quality media. The ability to get virtually anything to your doorstep in a week. The rise of other 'replicas' like Vegas, etc. The point is WS originally presented something that was foreign, different, otherwise new and exciting to you.

All those things erode the impact of something like WS. Imagine world showcase without the DDP, Illuminations, or the festivals. Do you really think it is the draw and has the significance today compared to what it was in the early 80s?

I just don't think the availability of ethnic foods has changed that much. Smaller towns and areas still don't have access to Moroccan food, Norwegian food, even German food -- Mexican and Chinese yes (although some of the WS Mexican is more authentic than what you'd get in most Mexican restaurants in smaller areas), and Japanese in some places, but not everything. If you don't live in a big city, that stuff is still exotic. I spent 3 years in law school 10 years ago in a city with about 100,000 people, and they didn't have anything like that -- that's still the norm. I certainly don't know, but I would guess that anyone who doesn't live in one of the top 30 or so metro areas in the country doesn't have regular access to many of the foods in the WS.

Beyond that, though, I guess I've just never thought of World Showcase as ever that significant in the terms you're describing. Maybe it was in the early 80s when EPCOT first opened, but most of my memories of EPCOT are from the early 90s and later, and I never thought of World Showcase as something overly new and exciting. I'd seen pictures and videos of most of those places but I still enjoyed the WS -- now I've been to several of the countries and I still enjoy WS. But Future World was always the biggest draw.

 

[yensidtlaw1969]

Exactly the point - in 1980 unless you were in an ethnic neighborhood or diverse mixing bowl of a city... the most exotic 'ethnic' food most people had access to was the chinese carry out in town. Now, there is a nation wide franchise for most.. and every food court in America will have a variety of tastes. It's no longer Sbarro... Chique and boutique is in...



It's not just 'looking them up on the internet'. Look at your TV shows, movies, etc.. think the media and mediums people are surrounded by every day of the week. The era of 1000 cable channels... the advent of high quality media. The ability to get virtually anything to your doorstep in a week. The rise of other 'replicas' like Vegas, etc. The point is WS originally presented something that was foreign, different, otherwise new and exciting to you.

All those things erode the impact of something like WS. Imagine world showcase without the DDP, Illuminations, or the festivals. Do you really think it is the draw and has the significance today compared to what it was in the early 80s?

You could argue the rise of replicas like Vegas are a testament to the value of World Showcase. Imitation, flattery, and all that.

I see what you're saying, and it makes sense theoretically, but in practice the popularity of World Showcase has not waned meaningfully enough to reflect what you're suggesting. World Showcase and its offerings are generally the reason EPCOT has held on at all in the wake of Future World's implosion.

Also, log on to Instagram and you'll notice that there are a good many people "standing out" with their photos from around World Showcase. The Social Currency the pavilions offer is not *quite* as valuable as their real-world equivalents, but people are far from sneezing at them.

 

[_caleb]

Connect the dots... people not just want to take a picture, the instagram world wants to STAND OUT. No one is discovering or standing out by taking a instagram photo of the EPCOT version of the tower of london... or what everyone can pickout as the undersized WDW knockoff vs the grand originals.

I guess I misunderstood this post then:

magine what World Showcase would be to adults these days if Disney hadn't come up with the festivals... It's biggest draw and awe is completely watered down now. No one walks into Italy anymore and is awed by the architecture... no one walks through England and feels like they are near the tower. It's a backdrop... no longer a 'travel the world' experience. People have had far too much exposure beyond the photos or grainy TV that the boomer generation grew up with.

I thought you were saying that people didn't want to visit WS anymore because they'd seen too many pictures on the internet. But the Instagram effect is the opposite- TONS of photos out there and yet everyone wants to go just to get that same photo.

Now you seem to be saying that people don't want to go to Epcot because the WS recreations are just "undersized knockoffs." So you're of the mind that the World Showcase concept isn't viable because the internet makes people rather see the real thing? If this were the case, then the Festivals are the reason people are coming to Epcot at all? Maybe Disney needs to crank out more limited edition popcorn buckets.

 

[flynnibus]

You could argue the rise of replicas like Vegas are a testament to the value of World Showcase. Imitation, flattery, and all that.

I mention them mainly because they show how WS was once unique, it lost that when others did it better. Anyone who goes through the Venitian and then goes through WS can feel the scale and immersion differences.

I see what you're saying, and it makes sense theoretically, but in practice the popularity of World Showcase has not waned meaningfully enough to reflect what you're suggesting. World Showcase and its offerings are generally the reason EPCOT has held on at all in the wake of Future World's implosion.

I'll repeat... "Imagine world showcase without the DDP, Illuminations, or the festivals" - and reassess that.

WS is where people go to get something (usually food or drink) because that's where Disney put it.

 

[flynnibus]

I guess I misunderstood this post then:

I thought you were saying that people didn't want to visit WS anymore because they'd seen too many pictures on the internet. But the Instagram effect is the opposite- TONS of photos out there and yet everyone wants to go just to get that same photo.

I'll repeat... " the instagram world wants to STAND OUT" - You don't stand out 'gramin the same old stuff. They use the term 'influencers' for a reason... they set ideals the minions all want to imitate because they all want to be that stand out photo themselves. You can't do that with same-ol-same-old.

Now you seem to be saying that people don't want to go to Epcot because the WS recreations are just "undersized knockoffs." So you're of the mind that the World Showcase concept isn't viable because the internet makes people rather see the real thing? If this were the case, then the Festivals are the reason people are coming to Epcot at all? Maybe Disney needs to crank out more limited edition popcorn buckets.

Why do you think disney has invested in more festivals instead of more countries?

 

[Brer Oswald]

If the "Iger and Chapek are arguing over whether or not to keep Splash Mountain" thing is true, I think we might've misjudged Chapek.

Neither of them could care less about the ride. It’s more of a “Mah Legacy” vs “Mah money!”

 

[Jrb1979]

IMO the lack of attractions are what has hurt World Showcase. Its why I think they should have continued to add the attractions that were originally planned and not IP based.