The Spirited Seventh Heaven ...

[asianway]

This is a prime example of the hyperbole created when nostalgia, romantic notions of what never was, and the irrationality of not accepting what is clearly in high public demand and shows no signs of slowing down.

* "Characters don't belong in Epcot!" - Characters have been a part of Epcot since it opened, I can show you pictures of me with Space Minnie from the 80's, and pictures of meeting the World Showcase double-decker "Character Bus" that used to bring them out there (I believe Chip and Dale used to run with that crowd).

* There is no "slippery slope" here as is being implied - unless Disney is suddenly going to spend the money and build attractions at more countries, this was it folks. And you know what? If Disney does want to build more attractions - heck, since they build so few, at least they would be building something, LOL. That said, I do not for one second think you have to worry - the rest of WS will remain as stagnant as it has been for the last quarter century for your continued shopping and substance consumption enjoyment.

* The ride everyone is kvetching about replacing was ALREADY seen by many long-time observers as the first shot in the "ruination" of the edutainment aspect of Epcot to begin with. There is nothing educational nor specifically historical about it - a ride largely of darkness with some brief show scenes with references to esoteric Gods and encounters with mythical Trolls, and suddenly an oil rig is involved. At least now folks will know what the bloody heck is going on in the attraction and it will have some cohesiveness.

This is coming from someone who is only a theme park fan because of dark rides, and I've always had a soft spot for Maelstrom in particular because of it's quirky nature - but as I said before, blindfold someone, bring them to the ride vehicle, remove the blindfold, and let them ride - if you asked them when they got off maybe 1 out of a 100 would have said "oh, Norway!" That's why they have that tacky film at the end (which for the past decade has been the only thing anyone has ever discussed about the attraction - more specifically - how to get around watching it).




I can't speak for the fans of the film. I'm not one, at least yet (though I do quite like Kristin Bell). Truth be told, haven't even seen it (though I'm thinking I might finally do so this weekend, this has all piqued my interest). Yet, I know all the characters names, the plot, the songs - because it's so popular and has struck such a chord with audiences.

That said, you just told the story of every attraction pretty much ever. Yes, it would be great if Disney built a big castle in Fantasyland and put a great dark ride in there. Oh wait, they did that with TLM - but some folks around these parts consider that a failure.

I don't think this is perfect, nor the best thing that could have happened - the point is, a lot more folks are going to be pleased and excited about a Frozen attraction than ever were about the confusing juxtaposition of elements that is the Maelstrom, as much as I enjoy quirky dark rides. This does nothing to change WS except give it an attraction that folks actually will want to seek out - but like I said, don't worry - the rest of it will remain the stagnant museum with the revolving door of restaurants that it always has been, Frozen isn't going to change that.

Small correction. Characters didn't make it to EPCOT until 85ish. That was due to their purposeful omission and subsequent addition due to guest demand. Quite possibly the slipperiest slope you'll ever see.

 

[71jason]

Speaking of EPCOT, random observation: saw five bachelorette parties today (best t-shirt: "Look like a beauty, drink like a beast"). Ton of small groups of CMs clearly there to day-drink, as well. Why didn't TDO ever try opening up PI during the day on weekends? Could've made a killing.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Speaking of EPCOT, random observation: saw five bachelorette parties today (best t-shirt: "Look like a beauty, drink like a beast"). Ton of small groups of CMs clearly there to day-drink, as well. Why didn't TDO ever try opening up PI during the day on weekends? Could've made a killing.

Because the ever honest surveys said people wanted more shopping and dining in a decade and a half.

Small correction. Characters didn't make it to EPCOT until 85ish. That was due to their purposeful omission and subsequent addition due to guest demand. Quite possibly the slipperiest slope you'll ever see.

I'm still not convinced the guest demand was ever that overwhelming. The parks, even with the huge sums poured into the ECPOT Center construction, are what kept Walt Disney Productions profitable. It was only after the "Disneyland is about movies" crowd of Roy Disney and Eisner came in that such changes really started to take hold (1985-sh) and then were accelerated following the financial disaster at Euro Disney. The huge success of merchandise at Tokyo Disneyland probably has not helped either as the American executives have salivated over the prospect of such numbers since 1983 and the Japanese certainly do love their characters.

 

[TalkingHead]

Anyone who cares about traditional theme park values should give a (DARN!).

What are "traditional theme park values" and why would anyone care about them one way or another?

 

[MotherOfBirds]

Speaking of EPCOT, random observation: saw five bachelorette parties today (best t-shirt: "Look like a beauty, drink like a beast"). Ton of small groups of CMs clearly there to day-drink, as well. Why didn't TDO ever try opening up PI during the day on weekends? Could've made a killing.

Because people paying park admission to spend more money on booze is more lucrative

 

[Animaniac93-98]

What are "traditional theme park values"?

Wearing heels or a tie to Disneyland?

 

[Animaniac93-98]

Because people paying park admission to spend more money on booze is more lucrative

They should have seperate turnstiles and admission into World Showcase.

 

[Tigger1988]

What are "traditional theme park values"

Not letting princes marry each other?

 

[MotherOfBirds]

They should have seperate turnstiles and admission into World Showcase.

They sort of do (for us FL residents anyway). There used to be a 4pm annual pass so that you could pop in for dinner in the WS after a certain time.

 

[AEfx]

.
And who cares about BK at this point? I think D23 can have future events wrapped around it (I say that since I was told what convinced Tony Baxter to attend the November, rescheduled from July, WDW event was the ability to shill DL's equivalent project that never happened -- his own Discovery Bay!)

Admittedly - I don't pay much attention to D23. I remember when it came about discussing it here and like many, I felt like somehow I was and should have been in the prime target audience - but it just didn't offer anything of interest to me.

But you are telling me that D23 members go to talks with Disney folks who tell them about all the attractions that they were too cheap to build? And people PAY for this?

On one hand, that's why I think I wasn't interested in D23 - because all the historical stuff is pretty much already available one way or another (one could qualify for a bachelor of Disney Park history just by skimming @marni1971's post history here for crying out loud). On the other, I absolutely have to give it to Disney - only they could make a paid membership benefit to be attend an event where you can sit in rapt attention hearing about all the stuff they never bothered to do.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Admittedly - I don't pay much attention to D23. I remember when it came about discussing it here and like many, I felt like somehow I was and should have been in the prime target audience - but it just didn't offer anything of interest to me.

But you are telling me that D23 members go to talks with Disney folks who tell them about all the attractions that they were too cheap to build? And people PAY for this?

On one hand, that's why I think I wasn't interested in D23 - because all the historical stuff is pretty much already available one way or another (one could qualify for a bachelor of Disney Park history just by skimming @marni1971's post history here for crying out loud). On the other, I absolutely have to give it to Disney - only they could make a paid membership benefit to be attend an event where you can sit in rapt attention hearing about all the stuff they never bothered to do.

What is even more amazing is that there is probably a large chunk of the audience where none of the information and stories is new. People coming again and again to hear the same stories told over and over.

 

[FigmentFreak]

They should have seperate turnstiles and admission into World Showcase.

Next up charge. A park within a park that you have to pay admission for. Six Flags Fiesta Texas did it for years with their waterpark. Don't know if they still do.

 

[AEfx]

Space Mountain is an iconic ride, known by people who have never even traveled to WDW or DL. That comparison is...pretty far off.
The general public will not care about Malestrom and everyone I've talked to about this outside of the fandom says the ride should've been gone years ago. Remove Space Mountain and people will actually care in the real world.

You don't remember that episode of the Golden Girls when they end up on the Maelstrom at the end? Oh wait...

 

[hpyhnt 1000]

Nice twist...

But what you are really reading is that replacing it with something that goes against the concept of ws is a bad idea - not that maelstrom is now loved.

Replace maelstrom with a proper ride for Norway if it has such low marks

Nailed it.

My sentiments exactly.

I don't love Maelstrom. It's quaint...sorta charming, but not what I would call "classic."

But 'toons in World Showcase....no thank you.
Not now, not ever. Horrible idea.

Just wanted to quote these because that's really the crux of the matter. Maelstrom was never the greatest attraction at Epcot, for many reasons. Heck, there have been members on these boards calling for it to be updated and plussed for years.

But at least its "story" and theme were based on the actual country of Norway. Shoehorning Arandelle from Frozen - a fictional place from a fictional, animated fantasy film - into a theme park land themed to real countries and places is just a horrible idea. It flies in the face of everything that World Showcase is supposed to be.

 

[Cesar R M]

Oh screw the Yeti.

The yeti had zero impact on guest attendance or the opinions of the average guest.

Should it be fixed? Yes. Should they have built it right in the first place? Of course.

Disney does not get a gold star for fixing something the didn't even do right in the first place.

Oh, I agre with you 100% with the Yeti.

they took aeons to finally put an ounce of interest in fixing it.

 

[AEfx]

So, everyone who "likes" Disney on Facebook doesn't have a valid opinion just because their comments are on Disney's Facebook page? I would think many people from various walks of life and varying degrees of interest in the parks would "like" the page, not just the die hard fanbois.

No, it's about the folks who have the Disney FB page set for automatic notifications and instantly run there to reply whenever they take a break from camping out there. Same with comments/articles elsewhere. People post out a link to a story and folks descend from Mount Twit upon the site to spew. Average folks aren't sitting on top of these topics/sites waiting to weigh in.

 

[AEfx]

Just wanted to quote these because that's really the crux of the matter. Maelstrom was never the greatest attraction at Epcot, for many reasons. Heck, there have been members on these boards calling for it to be updated and plussed for years.

But at least its "story" and theme were based on the actual country of Norway. Shoehorning Arandelle from Frozen - a fictional place from a fictional, animated fantasy film - into a theme park land themed to real countries and places is just a horrible idea. It flies in the face of everything that World Showcase is supposed to be.

Precisely...except for the fact that Maelstrom had little recognizable association with Norway to begin with.

 

[hpyhnt 1000]

Precisely...except for the fact that Maelstrom had little recognizable association with Norway to begin with.

Not really denying that. One of the big problems with Maelstrom was its basis on "the spirit" and folklore of Norway rather than the physical country itself. While great conceptually, the final version of the ride ended up being a blur of seemingly disconnected scenes.

Still, Maelstrom's shortcomings don't justify, if you will, the decision to replace the pavilion with Frozen.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Precisely...except for the fact that Maelstrom had little recognizable association with Norway to begin with.

Disney's creative rut stems from them being overly concerned with the recognizable and the known. World Showcase, and really the whole park, would be at its creative best if it was actively engaging visitors in what they do not immediately recognize as being related. It's not the most coherent progression of events, but it is a quick smattering of mythology, folklore and then-contemporary industry.

 

[misterID]

I never heard of Maelstrom being so "underwhelming" either until the Frozen rumors began. People seem to only care because its a movie thats "new", not because it fits thematically. The overlay could easily be one of the cheapest rides ever created by Disney.

Okay, I've heard this a lot lately, and we're approaching revisionism. I do grant you some of you are newer members, but Maelstrom has always been very divisive. Too short, outdated, nonsensical, loads of missed potential. Those were the arguments. The Polar Bear argument was always pretty entertaining. They just show up out of nowhere.