My Magic + details ...

[dadddio]

Jacking up room rates and food prices made a whole lot of people feel the dining plans were worth it, so I assume making the lines longer will make people think FPP is worth it.

The facts that room and food prices have increased have made the dining plans worth it for many guests. They are ACTUALLY worth it. They don't just feel worth it. You can actually sit down with a calculator and see how much money is saved.

It is true that they are not worth it for all guests, but that doesn't mean that they aren't a savings for many guests.

 

[devoy1701]

The facts that room and food prices have increased have made the dining plans worth it for many guests. They are ACTUALLY worth it. They don't just feel worth it. You can actually sit down with a calculator and see how much money is saved.

It is true that they are not worth it for all guests, but that doesn't mean that they aren't a savings for many guests.

Artificially though. Room Rates are well above market value, and that doesn't change the fact that the food has become subpar at most sitdown restaurants. I guess when you're getting it for "free" you give it a pass. I feel like there should be a separate menu for DDP and actual paying guests. So arguing that the dining plans are worth it because they jacked up their room rates so high is kind of a moot point. Disney probably still makes out on the end (raise room rates 20%-30% on double occupancy, order lower quality food and give it "away" for free OR charge the same price we used to charge on prime cuts).

 

[dadddio]

Artificially though. Room Rates are well above market value, and that doesn't change the fact that the food has become subpar at most sitdown restaurants. I guess when you're getting it for "free" you give it a pass. I feel like there should be a separate menu for DDP and actual paying guests. So arguing that the dining plans are worth it because they jacked up their room rates so high is kind of a moot point. Disney probably still makes out on the end (raise room rates 20%-30% on double occupancy, order lower quality food and give it "away" for free OR charge the same price we used to charge on prime cuts).

There are a few flaws in your logic.

First, the idea that room rates are above market value seems incorrect. The fact that people still book those rooms shows that they are not above market rate.

Second, the idea that people give poor quality food a pass because they are getting it for 'free' seems wrong. I say this because throughout the year, most people on the DDP are paying for it, not getting it for free. Also, it ignores that huge number of people who eat in this restaurants without participating in DDP.

At the end of the day, DDP is worth it for many people. You can actually calculate the savings realized by purchasing DDP or buying a package which includes free dining.

 

[devoy1701]

There are a few flaws in your logic.

First, the idea that room rates are above market value seems incorrect. The fact that people still book those rooms shows that they are not above market rate.

Second, the idea that people give poor quality food a pass because they are getting it for 'free' seems wrong. I say this because throughout the year, most people on the DDP are paying for it, not getting it for free. Also, it ignores that huge number of people who eat in this restaurants without participating in DDP.

At the end of the day, DDP is worth it for many people. You can actually calculate the savings realized by purchasing DDP or buying a package which includes free dining.

And you're missing the part where most guests are dumb and don't know any better. People without a dining plan eat at these locations mostly out of convenience, knowingly paying $30 for a cut of steak that would cost $15 off-property, while others still just pay the prices because they don't know any better. Sure there's some theming and environment that you're paying for. But even then, venues such as character dinings and buffets are all grossy overpriced.

And...You can get a suite at the Waldorf with is still ON Property for cheaper than you can pay for a standard view room at the Wilderness Lodge or the Family Suites. And I think you're buying into occupancy rates a bit more than you should.

The Value of the DDP is all artificial.

 

[dadddio]

And you're missing the part where most guests are dumb and don't know any better. People without a dining plan eat at these locations mostly out of convenience, knowingly paying $30 for a cut of steak that would cost $15 off-property, while others still just pay the prices because they don't know any better. Sure there's some theming and environment that you're paying for. But even then, venues such as character dinings and buffets are all grossy overpriced.

And...You can get a suite at the Waldorf with is still ON Property for cheaper than you can pay for a standard view room at the Wilderness Lodge or the Family Suites. And I think you're buying into occupancy rates a bit more than you should.

The Value of the DDP is all artificial.

I think that it is a mistake to balance your entire argument on "everyone who eats in these restaurants is dumb" because the the logical conclusion to that argument is that your expectations must be out of step.

Further, it doesn't matter if hotel rooms can be obtained anywhere else for less. The very fact that people still book these rooms means that they are not overpriced. This is really the same argument as the one about increases in the prices of park tickets.

 

[devoy1701]

I think that it is a mistake to balance your entire argument on "everyone who eats in these restaurants is dumb" because the the logical conclusion to that argument is that your expectations must be out of step.

Further, it doesn't matter if hotel rooms can be obtained anywhere else for less. The very fact that people still book these rooms means that they are not overpriced. This is really the same argument as the one about increases in the prices of park tickets.

I guess if you really feel like you're getting a value then you have nothing to worry about.

Paying $400+ night at any of the Deluxe resorts is dumb.
Paying $150+ night at any of the Value resorts is dumb.
Paying $45.99/person for a breakfast buffet is dumb.

I think my argument is pretty sound.

 

[MattM]

I guess if you really feel like you're getting a value then you have nothing to worry about.

Paying $400+ night at any of the Deluxe resorts is dumb.
Paying $150+ night at any of the Value resorts is dumb.
Paying $45.99/person for a breakfast buffet is dumb.

I think my argument is pretty sound.

Agreed, especially when you can stay at the Waldorf for well less than $400/night. It may not be as "magical" but its sure more luxurious

 

[dadddio]

I guess if you really feel like you're getting a value then you have nothing to worry about.

Paying $400+ night at any of the Deluxe resorts is dumb.
Paying $150+ night at any of the Value resorts is dumb.
Paying $45.99/person for a breakfast buffet is dumb.

I think my argument is pretty sound.

I'll drop back to my last post. Nothing you wrote changes any of it.

 

[Cletus]

When I can stay at Royal Pacific Resort for less money than POP Century then something is priced above it's market.

 

[CDavid]

Further, it doesn't matter if hotel rooms can be obtained anywhere else for less. The very fact that people still book these rooms means that they are not overpriced. This is really the same argument as the one about increases in the prices of park tickets.

On the contrary, it matters very much because Disney's resorts do not exist in a vacuum. There are many lodging options in the Orlando market which are in competition for the same theme park guests.

Regardless, many people actually are not booking these Disney resort rooms at these inflated prices - they're instead booking at a discount rate or as part of a discounted package (like free dining). If the rooms were so clearly not overpriced, Disney should certainly be able to fill the rooms at rack rate, with no need to discount. But they can't. Rooms are instead being filled at rates closer to what the market is actually willing to pay.

If Disney wants to fill its resort rooms at the price levels they are asking, they need to provide value for the money. That means resorts with more amenities which reflect what you might expect of a hotel in a similar environment and price point, and more critically, theme parks which aren't stale and offer new and expanded experiences guests are anxious to explore.

 

[asianway]

On the contrary, it matters very much because Disney's resorts do not exist in a vacuum. There are many lodging options in the Orlando market which are in competition for the same theme park guests.

Regardless, many people actually are not booking these Disney resort rooms at these inflated prices - they're instead booking at a discount rate or as part of a discounted package (like free dining). If the rooms were so clearly not overpriced, Disney should certainly be able to fill the rooms at rack rate, with no need to discount. But they can't. Rooms are instead being filled at rates closer to what the market is actually willing to pay.

If Disney wants to fill its resort rooms at the price levels they are asking, they need to provide value for the money. That means resorts with more amenities which reflect what you might expect of a hotel in a similar environment and price point, and more critically, theme parks which aren't stale and offer new and expanded experiences guests are anxious to explore.

Couple this with a target group of soccer mommys who have probably never stayed in so much as a Hampton Inn to know what the current standards in the hotel industry are.

 

[Pumbas Nakasak]

There are a few flaws in your logic.

First, the idea that room rates are above market value seems incorrect. The fact that people still book those rooms shows that they are not above market rate.

Second, the idea that people give poor quality food a pass because they are getting it for 'free' seems wrong. I say this because throughout the year, most people on the DDP are paying for it, not getting it for free. Also, it ignores that huge number of people who eat in this restaurants without participating in DDP.

At the end of the day, DDP is worth it for many people. You can actually calculate the savings realized by purchasing DDP or buying a package which includes free dining.

Some people enjoy McDonalds.

 

[Nubs70]

What kind of increases can be expected in order to justify the cost of MM+?

Digging for concrete real time numbers is like drilling holes in water. I settled on the 2012 annual report pg 33. The derived numbers are not exact but should help to shed light on the magnitude of the investment.

The typical payback terms for investment in business is 5 years. This means corporate wants the revenue generated to pay off the price of the investment in 5 years. It is also helpful to understand the margin at which WDW operates. Note - International and Domestic results are included, so this analysis is considering the effect of NGE across WD P&R as a whole. Again while not specifically accurate, describes the magnitude of additional revenue needed to justify NGE.

Revenue - $12,920B
Income (less expenses) - $1,902B
Margin = $1,902/$12,920 = 14.721%

If (for easy math) NGE costs $2.5B and payback equals 5 years, this equates to 5 yearly payments of $500MM.

How much revenue does WDW need to generate to have $500MM in Operating Income for NGE payment? After all, it takes money to make money, right?

$500MM/margin = $500MM/.14721 = $3.396B
​

So WDW needs to have NGE increase sales by $3.4B/year (based on 2012 Annual Report) or 26.32%.

If analyzed by per Per Room Guest Spending (PRGS) with the same 2012 ratio of Revenues to PRGS. PRGS will need to increase from $257/night to $325/night.

​

 

[WDW1974]

So, I leave a thread of mine and the Disney apologists try and take over?
Do you work for Disney,@dadddio?

 

[WDW1974]

The fact that FPs for popular rides get spread around among more people makes FP+ a net GAIN for customers. It is a loss for the few of us who now get multiple FPs for these rides each day, but that doesn't make it a net loss for all guests.

The fact is you have your facts wrong. Far fewer people will have access to FPs for attractions like Soarin and TSMM and the MK mountains. Those attractions will book up 60 days out to Disney's on-site guests.

it may be a net gain for SOME guests but will be a net loss for MOST.

 

[WDW1974]

The facts that room and food prices have increased have made the dining plans worth it for many guests. They are ACTUALLY worth it. They don't just feel worth it. You can actually sit down with a calculator and see how much money is saved.

It is true that they are not worth it for all guests, but that doesn't mean that they aren't a savings for many guests.

Yes, Disney is gouging so much that using the tortured numbers logic, folks can find 'value' in DDP.

A smart guest doesn't dine at WDW locales as a rule. Amazing how much can be saved that way.

 

[WDW1974]

There are a few flaws in your logic.

First, the idea that room rates are above market value seems incorrect. The fact that people still book those rooms shows that they are not above market rate.

Second, the idea that people give poor quality food a pass because they are getting it for 'free' seems wrong. I say this because throughout the year, most people on the DDP are paying for it, not getting it for free. Also, it ignores that huge number of people who eat in this restaurants without participating in DDP.

At the end of the day, DDP is worth it for many people. You can actually calculate the savings realized by purchasing DDP or buying a package which includes free dining.

The average room rate in Orlando is about $105 a night. What is the average at WDW?$400? $500?

No, you are incorrect again, WDW rates are out of whack With market value except for the side of Pixie Dust you get at WDW resorts (to make up for lower quality services, food, CMs and amenities).

The DDP is designed go appeal to ignorant guests and the addicts who think even dining at the Swan and Dolphin is too painful because it 'isn't Disney'' ... In no real world way is it a value anymore than DVC is.

 

[pjammer]

The average room rate in Orlando is about $105 a night. What is the average at WDW?$400? $500?

No, you are incorrect again, WDW rates are out of whack With market value except for the side of Pixie Dust you get at WDW resorts (to make up for lower quality services, food, CMs and amenities).

The DDP is designed go appeal to ignorant guests and the addicts who think even dining at the Swan and Dolphin is too painful because it 'isn't Disney'' ... In no real world way is it a value anymore than DVC is.

You seem to forget that this "overhead" helps pay for perks that most people forget about. Disney transpiration does not generate revenue and this helps pay for all the cost of bus drivers to fuel to monorail or boats maintenance. Also extra magic hours which is a current perk. The labor to staff these extra hours is helped by this cost. Not to mention things like lifeguards and special activities at the resorts. DDP is a perk that if is utilized correctly can save money if you plan on not leaving property.

 

[WDW1974]

You seem to forget that this "overhead" helps pay for perks that most people forget about. Disney transpiration does not generate revenue and this helps pay for all the cost of bus drivers to fuel to monorail or boats maintenance. Also extra magic hours which is a current perk. The labor to staff these extra hours is helped by this cost. Not to mention things like lifeguards and special activities at the resorts. DDP is a perk that if is utilized correctly can save money if you plan on not leaving property.

You are talking rates that can be three to ten times what similar off-property locations charge. People often pay more for Disney motel rooms that luxury resorts like the Ritz or Waldorf ... BRAND addiction.

And let's not insult anyone's intelligence by stating Disney actually maintains its monorails

 

[flynnibus]

How much revenue does WDW need to generate to have $500MM in Operating Income for NGE payment? After all, it takes money to make money, right?

$500MM/margin = $500MM/.14721 = $3.396B
​

So WDW needs to have NGE increase sales by $3.4B/year (based on 2012 Annual Report) or 26.32%.

Your logic completely ignores the idea of cost savings or other budget roll-ups like money that would have been spent otherwise maintaining other systems, etc.

Consolidation alone of the various platforms they had previously could be worth tens of millions.. if not even another zero on there... in annual costs.