Captain America 4

[Agent H]

Just so I don’t always seem like a defender, nor a trades worshiper, I just love the data.

The data is love. the data is life.

 

[Screamface]

I’m beginning to believe people have too high expectations for superhero films.

They managed to meet expectations for many, many years. It's not the audience's fault if they can no longer do that.

 

[Tony the Tigger]

They managed to meet expectations for many, many years. It's not the audience's fault if they can no longer do that.

View attachment 848481

They were never Shakespeare.

Not even Star Wars.

Frankly, there’s very little difference IMO between the ones that are worshipped and the ones that are trashed.

 

[WoundedDreamer]

I’m beginning to believe people have too high expectations for superhero films.

I do agree that we are in a painful period of adjusting our expectations to a streaming landscape. Still, I think it's fair to say Captain America 4 is a disappointment.

Films like Black Panther 2, Thor 4, and GotG 3 are a good baseline for a solid Marvel gross. Not as big or successful as 7 years ago, but still solid performers. GotG 3 and BP 2 both had strong reviews and were established franchises. Thor 4 was murkier critically, but likely sailed to a comfortable gross based on Hemsworth’s goodwill and Thor 3’s popularity.

Quantumania and CA 4 were both panned by critics. This gives us important context. Both these films earned weaker grosses than the films I mentioned earlier. Drawing a connection between the weaker gross and the critical problems seems entirely reasonable.

If two poorly reviewed films have grossed in the $400-$500 million range, what could a well-constructed Marvel film gross? That tier above CA 4/Quantumania is what a good Marvel film should be aiming for. Not Deadpool 3 or No Way Home numbers, but solid performance nonetheless. There’s a middle ground between the juggernauts and CA 4/Quantumania.

Disney is going to need to accept smaller grosses in a streaming world, but I don’t think Captain America 4 is the new baseline. Disney/Marvel is in transition. Captain America 4 seems like it was impacted by the Marvel Overproduction Crisis. Thunderbolts also seems like an impending stinker. Marvel’s turnaround will need a little while longer to start having an impact. Fantastic Four is the pivot point.

They were never Shakespeare.

Not even Star Wars.

Frankly, there’s very little difference IMO between the ones that are worshipped and the ones that are trashed.

Even the Walt Disney Company's CEO has acknowledged there was a quality dip:

"We've been working hard with the studio to reduce output and focus more on quality. That's particularly true with Marvel. I know you mentioned television shows. Some of what is coming up is a vestige of basically a desire in the past to increase volume. We're slowly going to decrease volume and go to probably about 2 TV series a year instead of what had become 4, and reduce our film output from maybe 4 a year to 2 to the maximum 3. And we're working hard on what that path is."

The Co-President of Marvel Studios admitted there was a quality dip:

“Maybe when you do too much, you dilute yourself a little bit... we’re not going to do that anymore. We learned our lesson. Maybe two to three films a year and one or two shows, as opposed to doing four films and four shows.”

And the Deadpool 3 director acknowledged it:

“You’d have to live under a rock not to know that the last few Marvel movies have failed to ignite the world in the way that so many did...”

There's no shame in admitting that mistakes were made. Iger has identified the root issue as overproduction. Personally, I think this is a reasonable explanation. The more projects there are the less oversight there is from the core management team. Problems can multiply rapidly without competent guidance from producers. Projects that should not have been approved for production were given the green light in order to meet the endless hunger for "content." It all makes intuitive sense.

Arguing that nothing changed over the last few years is a losing proposition.

 

[Screamface]

It's also interesting to consider that this may end up being a massive year for the Marvel comeback. Daredevil back on TV and is great so far. Thunderbolts looks decent. Fantastic Four will probably be huge and next year an Avengers movie and a Spiderman.

 

[Willmark]

FF has not traditionally done well on the big screen, but it does have my interest. Thunderbolts no idea what happens with that one, could see it going either way.

But I do agree the later end of the year I to next had a lot more promise.

 

[Rambozo]

I think he has little tolerance for inane posts.

this from a clown?

If you're trying to whip up the crowd to attack another poster whom you don't happen to like, go back to 4Chan.

Ahhh.., did Tony post something that hit a little too close to the truth for you

Whoa, don't be so sensitive! The guy gives an angry emoji at the drop of a hat. Maybe you guys should go out and get some fresh air and stop living on the boards. You remind me of the people on Twitter... well actually probably more like Blue Sky.

 

[Tony the Tigger]

I do agree that we are in a painful period of adjusting our expectations to a streaming landscape. Still, I think it's fair to say Captain America 4 is a disappointment.

Films like Black Panther 2, Thor 4, and GotG 3 are a good baseline for a solid Marvel gross. Not as big or successful as 7 years ago, but still solid performers. GotG 3 and BP 2 both had strong reviews and were established franchises. Thor 4 was murkier critically, but likely sailed to a comfortable gross based on Hemsworth’s goodwill and Thor 3’s popularity.

Quantumania and CA 4 were both panned by critics. This gives us important context. Both these films earned weaker grosses than the films I mentioned earlier. Drawing a connection between the weaker gross and the critical problems seems entirely reasonable.

If two poorly reviewed films have grossed in the $400-$500 million range, what could a well-constructed Marvel film gross? That tier above CA 4/Quantumania is what a good Marvel film should be aiming for. Not Deadpool 3 or No Way Home numbers, but solid performance nonetheless. There’s a middle ground between the juggernauts and CA 4/Quantumania.

Disney is going to need to accept smaller grosses in a streaming world, but I don’t think Captain America 4 is the new baseline. Disney/Marvel is in transition. Captain America 4 seems like it was impacted by the Marvel Overproduction Crisis. Thunderbolts also seems like an impending stinker. Marvel’s turnaround will need a little while longer to start having an impact. Fantastic Four is the pivot point.


Even the Walt Disney Company's CEO has acknowledged there was a quality dip:

"We've been working hard with the studio to reduce output and focus more on quality. That's particularly true with Marvel. I know you mentioned television shows. Some of what is coming up is a vestige of basically a desire in the past to increase volume. We're slowly going to decrease volume and go to probably about 2 TV series a year instead of what had become 4, and reduce our film output from maybe 4 a year to 2 to the maximum 3. And we're working hard on what that path is."

The Co-President of Marvel Studios admitted there was a quality dip:

“Maybe when you do too much, you dilute yourself a little bit... we’re not going to do that anymore. We learned our lesson. Maybe two to three films a year and one or two shows, as opposed to doing four films and four shows.”

And the Deadpool 3 director acknowledged it:

“You’d have to live under a rock not to know that the last few Marvel movies have failed to ignite the world in the way that so many did...”

There's no shame in admitting that mistakes were made. Iger has identified the root issue as overproduction. Personally, I think this is a reasonable explanation. The more projects there are the less oversight there is from the core management team. Problems can multiply rapidly without competent guidance from producers. Projects that should not have been approved for production were given the green light in order to meet the endless hunger for "content." It all makes intuitive sense.

Arguing that nothing changed over the last few years is a losing proposition.

Cap 4 was much more watchable to me than Cap 1, which put me to sleep over and over again before I finally got through it. Everyone is different.

One could quibble over details, but cannot overlook the “not my Cap” campaign, which had zero to do with the quality of the film, but definitely affected the numbers.

Similar story with The Marvels, which I enjoyed more than most Marvel movies. Maybe I’m just not that into, or sick of the usual superhero schtick/formula. I grew up with the old Superman, which was cool. But unlike many in the bro-verse, I have no trouble accepting women in the leads, and a more lighthearted feel to the film.

I only watched Marvel movies selectively, after enjoying Iron Man and then being quickly bored by Iron Man 2. Ant-Man was one of my favorites, along with Guardians. Loved the first two Ant-Man films. Saw QM right away, started out hysterical about him saving the world, took a detour into the quantum realm - ok. I tend to go with the flow, and allow for the creatives to take me where they’re going. There was the same extra bad cgi with giant Ant-Man as there was with giant Ursula in TLM. I walked out after the film with some critique (as I do with every film - our ride home is discussing them) but not thinking it was a bomb. I would have preferred less quantum realm, but I get the whole Kang thing.

Maybe because I did grow up with Superman as my baseline, everything seems somewhat impressive - although I still don’t like cgi except for backgrounds. I begrudgingly accept it as part of the way movies are made now. I don’t generally hold superhero movies in high regard. If they’re fun, they work. Not meant to be taken so seriously.

Regardless, I stand by my point that there’s not a huge swing of difference between Cap 1 and Cap 4, between Captain Marvel and The Marvels, between Ant-Man 1 and QM, or between (insert any two Marvel movies here.)

 

[Tony the Tigger]

Whoa, don't be so sensitive! The guy gives an angry emoji at the drop of a hat.

Whoa, don’t be so sensitive at an angry emoji - especially after I explained my usage of it.

And if you research my emoji use you will find I absolutely do not use it at the drop of a hat. I use it when it is merited, which is not often.

And once again, if you’re going to talk about me, have the guts to say it to me and tag me.

 

[Chi84]

Whoa, don’t be so sensitive at an angry emoji - especially after I explained my usage of it.

And if you research my emoji use you will find I absolutely do not use it at the drop of a hat. I use it when it is merited, which is not often.

And once again, if you’re going to talk about me, have the guts to say it to me and tag me.

Or maybe we can stop feeding the clown. I can guarantee no one will miss anything worthwhile.

 

[Vegas Disney Fan]

I just want to log that it really never looked that high following the debut weekend. I’m not sure what everyone else was thinking throwing those numbers around. The comp was always Quantumania and it was pretty locked with the CinemaScore. No second weekend miracle internationally materialized.

I use a very simple equation with movies, opening weekend is historically 25-33% of a movies domestic box office, and DBO is historically about 50% of total box office. The MCU usually does more international so in Marvels case I adjust domestic to 40-45% of total BO.

For Cap4 a $90m OW put that estimate at $180-270m domestically and about $400-675m worldwide. It’s going to fall in that range, just on the low end, based on a pretty solid 79 rotten tomatoes score I thought it would fall in the middle range instead.

That’s why I said Disney is likely disappointed over this, it likely fell within their predictions also, but on the low end which is disappointing.

 

[MisterPenguin]

You remind me of the people on Twitter... well actually probably more like Blue Sky.

Nice dog whistle there. Who's being sensitive again?

 

[Agent H]

Whoa, don't be so sensitive! The guy gives an angry emoji at the drop of a hat. Maybe you guys should go out and get some fresh air and stop living on the boards. You remind me of the people on Twitter... well actually probably more like Blue Sky.

In my experience blue sky is a much better site than twitter so I’m not sure what you’re point is there.

 

[MisterPenguin]

In my experience blue sky is a much better site than twitter so I’m not sure what you’re point is there.

It's a political one.

 

[Agent H]

It's a political one.

Can’t say I’m surprised.

 

[Agent H]

Yeah, that's true.

Normal people don't give an angry emoticon for everything they disagree with.

That is not what @Tony the Tigger does as they already explained.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Top 10 reasons Captain Falcon flopped




1. Falcon is a very unlikable Main Character

(From The Falcon "crybaby" show)


- Let's look for the right person to say it to. Oh there you are. "You gotta do better Senator."

- "Don't call her a terrorist!" (... even though she's blowing up buildings and killing innocent people).

- I can't get a bank loan... BOO HOO! ... Ant-man works at Baskin-Robbins for Pete's sake!



2. He is also a side character, with no good villains of his own. He's worse than Supergirl (see final reason for the reason why).


3. Because he doesn't have his own villains he was given Hulk's Villains, which seem really out of place. "Maybe they should have... I don't know... Fought the Hulk."


4. Blurry Background CGI, "Whoa look at the blurry Cherry Blossoms kids!"


5. Miscasting and poor representation of Thunderbolt Ross. "You couldn't keep him as a General and cast a mustached Stephen Lang."


6. Spent way too much money (350+ million), "Maybe you could have kept the budget down if you didn't do the next 2."


7. No Script


8. an Inexperienced Director... Again


9. Based on a Bad 21st Century Comic, during the worst time in Comic History


10. He's also not a Super Soldier, "So yes you're not Steve Rogers. You're a wimp compared to THE REAL CAP."

Evans was the backbone character of the whole thing

If they wanted to off him/not pay him…then they needed go in a completely different direction

 

[BrianLo]

I just saw Cap 4, “for free”.

It was just fine and innocuous but sort of pointless. I do really like the new Falcon Danny Ramirez.

 

[Tony the Tigger]

I just saw Cap 4, “for free”.

It was just fine and innocuous but sort of pointless. I do really like the new Falcon Danny Ramirez.

Aren’t most superhero movies pointless?

I thought showing the effects of racism across generations elevated this one a touch, even if the rest was just as pointless as most lol.

 

[Phroobar]

I just saw Cap 4, “for free”.

It was just fine and innocuous but sort of pointless. I do really like the new Falcon Danny Ramirez.

Agree. The new Falcon was pretty good. He was much more interesting than new Cap.

Like I said, good action movie, bad Captain America movie.