News EPCOT's Harmonious to be replaced with new nighttime spectacular Luminous

[SplashJacket]

Genuinely asking, are the crowds for Luminous actually less then ROE or Harmonious? Or are people just scrutinizing more now than before? I recall ROE always being easy to see with lots of spots summer 2013.

@wdwmagic or @lentesta have you heard?

Also important to remember that Harmonious was empty, even in the few spots it was visible. This, like ROE, does not have that problem

 

[lentesta]

Genuinely asking, are the crowds for Luminous actually less then ROE or Harmonious? Or are people just scrutinizing more now than before? I recall ROE always being easy to see with lots of spots summer 2013.

@wdwmagic or @lentesta have you heard?

I mean, Disney's said attendance is down, so crowds would be smaller just based on that.

As has been said here, sit-down dining is taking a beating in WDW as well. That would seem to affect EPCOT more than most parks.

As for survey results:

IllumiNations remains EPCOT's highest-rated nighttime show* since 2000, averaging 4.5 stars across every age group from teens through seniors. And that's on > 18,000 surveys, so the margins of error are tiny.

Luminous averages 4.0 stars across all age groups except seniors, who rate it 4.5. That's on < 100 surveys, so margin of error there is going to be wider than for IllumiNations.

Harmonious averaged 4.0 stars across all age groups except grade schoolers, who rated it 4.5 stars. Smaller margin of error there, but not as small as IllumiNations.

*Pretty sure Wishes is the highest-rated nighttime show in WDW history. It averaged 5 stars from anyone over age 19, and 4.5 for everyone whose brain was still in the process of forming. Happily Every After averages 4.5 stars across the board, which is great. It's the difference between an All-Star and a Hall of Famer though.

 

[SoFloMagic]

Genuinely asking, are the crowds for Luminous actually less then ROE or Harmonious? Or are people just scrutinizing more now than before? I recall ROE always being easy to see with lots of spots summer 2013.

@wdwmagic or @lentesta have you heard?

People scrutinize everything. Engagement is all that matters online, so outrage is the new thing.

As one data point, I've seen the show 10 or so times, and crowds in general feel a bit more than for EF, but substantially more than Humongous, which often was completely empty outside of the Stargate viewing zones.

 

[Disone]

People scrutinize everything. Engagement is all that matters online, so outrage is the new thing.

As one data point, I've seen the show 10 or so times, and crowds in general feel a bit more than for EF, but substantially more than Humongous, which often was completely empty outside of the Stargate viewing zones.

My personal experiences matches this as well. I've seen it a bunch of times. It seems to be much more engagement than harmonious which like you observed was pretty packed for the Stargate viewing area but elsewhere could be sparse.

I was surprised that @lentesta revealed that Harmonious ratings were pretty favorable. I liked the show very much, probably more than luminous but I do like luminous. However there was no doubt the show had a huge following of critics online. But the ratings revealed showed that overall it seemed to be doing pretty well with the guests so I'm surprised that Disney moved forward with changing it. Regardless as someone else pointing out I think luminous grows on me with each subsequent viewing. I too have gone from it's good to its very good. I'm probably going to fall in love with the show with a few more viewings.

 

[SoFloMagic]

I mean, Disney's said attendance is down, so crowds would be smaller just based on that.

As has been said here, sit-down dining is taking a beating in WDW as well. That would seem to affect EPCOT more than most parks.

As for survey results:

IllumiNations remains EPCOT's highest-rated nighttime show* since 2000, averaging 4.5 stars across every age group from teens through seniors. And that's on > 18,000 surveys, so the margins of error are tiny.

Luminous averages 4.0 stars across all age groups except seniors, who rate it 4.5. That's on < 100 surveys, so margin of error there is going to be wider than for IllumiNations.

Harmonious averaged 4.0 stars across all age groups except grade schoolers, who rated it 4.5 stars. Smaller margin of error there, but not as small as IllumiNations.

*Pretty sure Wishes is the highest-rated nighttime show in WDW history. It averaged 5 stars from anyone over age 19, and 4.5 for everyone whose brain was still in the process of forming. Happily Every After averages 4.5 stars across the board, which is great. It's the difference between an All-Star and a Hall of Famer though.

I have a theory about wishes. I remember seeing it 20 years ago and thinking it was so vivid in it's storytelling. I remember vivid projections on the castle and a beautiful soundtrack and strong storytelling. Now that I know what projection mapping can do, I don't think I would have felt the imagery was strong for wishes.

I wonder if wishes could only have scored so high in the time it existed in. It didn't distract with animations on every corner of the castle, but we didn't know that was a thing. If it came out new today, would we bash it as "cheap"?

 

[marni1971]

so I'm surprised that Disney moved forward with changing it

Humungous had many issues, some including third parties who weren’t best pleased with lack of clientele because of it.

I have a theory about wishes. I remember seeing it 20 years ago and thinking it was so vivid in its storytelling. I remember vivid projections on the castle and a beautiful soundtrack and strong storytelling. Now that I know what projection mapping can do, I don't think I would have felt the imagery was strong for wishes.

I wonder if wishes could only have scored so high in the time it existed in. It didn't distract with animations on every corner of the castle, but we didn't know that was a thing. If it came out new today, would we bash it as "cheap"?

Imagine if Wishes premiered today with today’s tech. That would be something.

 

[wbostic12]

My personal experiences matches this as well. I've seen it a bunch of times. It seems to be much more engagement than harmonious which like you observed was pretty packed for the Stargate viewing area but elsewhere could be sparse.

I was surprised that @lentesta revealed that Harmonious ratings were pretty favorable. I liked the show very much, probably more than luminous but I do like luminous. However there was no doubt the show had a huge following of critics online. But the ratings revealed showed that overall it seemed to be doing pretty well with the guests so I'm surprised that Disney moved forward with changing it. Regardless as someone else pointing out I think luminous grows on me with each subsequent viewing. I too have gone from it's good to its very good. I'm probably going to fall in love with the show with a few more viewings.

I know this has been discussed over and over, but I really don't think it was truly guest satisfaction of the show that did Harmonious in. I think the problem was part people looking across WSL and being annoyed/confused by the barges, the majority of the crowds not making it late enough to experience it, and the fact that it became a maintenance nightmare.

I did recently have another thought about the relationship between Harmonious and Luminous, and I wonder if anyone thinks this makes sense or knows if I may be on the right track. At the press event on the day of Harmonious' preview show, Davison spoke to someone (I can't remember who it was with) and stated that they already had a version of Harmonious in place to replace ROE that they had created, and then said that Chapek came in and said he wanted a Disney concert, and that edict changed Harmonious into what actually ended up running. Based on the speed at which Luminous seemingly came together, is it out of the realm of possibility that Luminous (in general theme or in full show) is the reincarnated version of that first draft of Harmonious? Looking at the track list for Luminous, Into the Unknown is the newest song (2019), and I think that since there was very little in term of details for that initial Harmonious proposal, this might be (at least in part) true.
Any thoughts on this theory?

EDIT: Found the Video (Linked to time stamp)

 

[trainplane3]

I know this has been discussed over and over, but I really don't think it was truly guest satisfaction of the show that did Harmonious in. I think the problem was part people looking across WSL and being annoyed/confused by the barges, the majority of the crowds not making it late enough to experience it, and the fact that it became a maintenance nightmare.

I did recently have another thought about the relationship between Harmonious and Luminous, and I wonder if anyone thinks this makes sense or knows if I may be on the right track. At the press event on the day of Harmonious' preview show, Davison spoke to someone (I can't remember who it was with) and stated that they already had a version of Harmonious in place to replace ROE that they had created, and then said that Chapek came in and said he wanted a Disney concert, and that edict changed Harmonious into what actually ended up running. Based on the speed at which Luminous seemingly came together, is it out of the realm of possibility that Luminous (in general theme or in full show) is the reincarnated version of that first draft of Harmonious? Looking at the track list for Luminous, Into the Unknown is the newest song (2019), and I think that since there was very little in term of details for that initial Harmonious proposal, this might be (at least in part) true.
Any thoughts on this theory?

EDIT: Found the Video (Linked to time stamp)

I remember there being hope early on, like 2014/2015ish, the RoE replacement was looking good. Then a rapid shift all of the sudden. I did laugh at how they were pinning Chapek as the reason for the change before the debut. It's like they knew something wasn't right.

Just remember with Luminous we got a show with a extremely limited budget. The actual RoE replacement would've been better. I believe a chunk of the systems and the second Harmonious maintenance barge were reused for Luminous.

 

[Chef idea Mickey`=]

I did recently have another thought about the relationship between Harmonious and Luminous, and I wonder if anyone thinks this makes sense or knows if I may be on the right track. At the press event on the day of Harmonious' preview show, Davison spoke to someone (I can't remember who it was with) and stated that they already had a version of Harmonious in place to replace ROE that they had created, and then said that Chapek came in and said he wanted a Disney concert, and that edict changed Harmonious into what actually ended up running. Based on the speed at which Luminous seemingly came together, is it out of the realm of possibility that Luminous (in general theme or in full show) is the reincarnated version of that first draft of Harmonious? Looking at the track list for Luminous, Into the Unknown is the newest song (2019), and I think that since there was very little in term of details for that initial Harmonious proposal, this might be (at least in part) true.
Any thoughts on this theory?

EDIT: Found the Video (Linked to time stamp)

Made me always wonder why the barges looked like they were to been spread out, maybe if they weren't built yet were to been smaller as they appear lower than the countries heights so we could still see them as opposed to blocked as here and here they are used in the show as a backdrop projection of more just what ever the character or animation it's representing at each given time.

The laser lights, flame throwers, which weren't in the end up existing Harmonious and the greater biggest highlight being the fireworks as the main character an not the barges shows a much different story and more grand lit up beautiful show throughout World Showcase than color disco all in one place everything just from coming out centralized barges.

 

[Chef idea Mickey`=]

I know this has been discussed over and over, but I really don't think it was truly guest satisfaction of the show that did Harmonious in. I think the problem was part people looking across WSL and being annoyed/confused by the barges, the majority of the crowds not making it late enough to experience it, and the fact that it became a maintenance nightmare.

I did recently have another thought about the relationship between Harmonious and Luminous, and I wonder if anyone thinks this makes sense or knows if I may be on the right track. At the press event on the day of Harmonious' preview show, Davison spoke to someone (I can't remember who it was with) and stated that they already had a version of Harmonious in place to replace ROE that they had created, and then said that Chapek came in and said he wanted a Disney concert, and that edict changed Harmonious into what actually ended up running. Based on the speed at which Luminous seemingly came together, is it out of the realm of possibility that Luminous (in general theme or in full show) is the reincarnated version of that first draft of Harmonious? Looking at the track list for Luminous, Into the Unknown is the newest song (2019), and I think that since there was very little in term of details for that initial Harmonious proposal, this might be (at least in part) true.
Any thoughts on this theory?

EDIT: Found the Video (Linked to time stamp)

If you have seen or watch the 2019 Demonstration of the finale which the Opening was ended as being the Finale then you can see the synchronization kinetics of all the elements correlating together uniquely individually the lasers, the flames, the fireworks, lasers from the arms. I'm not seeing fountains here unless they are there small in their own location.

Is this a Bob Chapek approved concept. Fooling you at D23 so no one backfires at seeing a concept art of Giant Barges sitting in the middle blocking views is not what was teased at the Preview Center!

When they teased the largest Biggest nighttime spectacular Disney has ever produced I believed them by the fireworks display then.

Bob Chapek saying he wants a concert is basically taking all these things together surpringly removing the flames, lasers and rainbow all the colors together into a chaos a disco concert. Locking the barges together and seeing everything in one location is basically what a concert stage is.

 

[bmr1591]

Harmonious' failure had to do with three things:

1. Barges didn't move in and out as originally planned. That harmed a lot of guest perception.

2. PhotoPass sales for EPCOT were awful because people didn't want a picture with the barges in the background. Apparently, EPCOT had to assure PhotoPass a certain amount of purchases a day, and if they didn't make it, that money had to be paid from the park to the PhotoPass services, which made EPCOT execs hate the show.

3. Restaurants weren't getting traffic at night, which made them angry.

Combine all three and it's no wonder Disney removed it.

 

[Chef idea Mickey`=]

I was surprised that @lentesta revealed that Harmonious ratings were pretty favorable. I liked the show very much, probably more than luminous but I do like luminous. However there was no doubt the show had a huge following of critics online. But the ratings revealed showed that overall it seemed to be doing pretty well with the guests so I'm surprised that Disney moved forward with changing it. Regardless

Harmonious' failure had to do with three things:

1. Barges didn't move in and out as originally planned. That harmed a lot of guest perception.

2. PhotoPass sales for EPCOT were awful because people didn't want a picture with the barges in the background. Apparently, EPCOT had to assure PhotoPass a certain amount of purchases a day, and if they didn't make it, that money had to be paid from the park to the PhotoPass services, which made EPCOT execs hate the show.

3. Restaurants weren't getting traffic at night, which made them angry.

Combine all three and it's no wonder Disney removed it.

If it wasn't for the disco concert formed presentation and barges permanently blocked on the lagoon, and all the reasons listed above, as much as it's one of the only shows where I see people dancing along specifically for it's upbeat vibe that it differentiated from every Epcot show the biggest factor in the end of the day an Epcot show formula is connection, unity and truth and not a party which is why you have pre shows and post shows and also not full Disney IP Animation Covers for the entire 99% of the show.

 

[Chef idea Mickey`=]

Just remember with Luminous we got a show with a extremely limited budget. The actual RoE replacement would've been better.

I can't imagine what more could you plus Luminous so it's not a limited budget. Flames etc

At the press event on the day of Harmonious' preview show, Davison spoke to someone (I can't remember who it was with) and stated that they already had a version of Harmonious in place to replace ROE that they had created

Wow. Does this mean if they were moveable barges like today's Luminous.. would that mean that a temporary Epcot Forever would not been needed to transition from ROE to this?

 

[Surfin' Tuna]

Imagine if Wishes premiered today with today’s tech. That would be something.

Imagine if we had seen something around NYE showing how amazing and loved it still is and could be. Imagine having a show back in the magic kingdom that actually told a story with pacing and emotion.

 

[jrhwdw]

Imagine if we had seen something around NYE showing how amazing and loved it still is and could be. Imagine having a show back in the magic kingdom that actually told a story with pacing and emotion.

IDK why MK doesn't want Wishes for NYE.

 

[Disone]

Humungous had many issues, some including third parties who weren’t best pleased with lack of clientele because of it.

Imagine if Wishes premiered today with today’s tech. That would be something.

Heard but overall strong ratings which I just found surprising.

With harmonious rating as high as it did maybe the issue wasn't harmonious but rather new Epcot as a whole.

I was talking to a friend the other day and came up with a new phrase, "good enough never is". Hopefully Disney will learn that one day.

 

[TTA94]

What could make Luminous better visually is if the fountain barges were spread out or more of them. Also water screens, fire effects and drones. Soundtrack wise I have been torn. I will say I would not be disappointed for a completely new soundtrack.

 

[Chef idea Mickey`=]

What could make Luminous better visually is if the fountain barges were spread out or more of them. Also water screens, fire effects and drones. Soundtrack wise I have been torn. I will say I would not be disappointed for a completely new soundtrack.

The whole everything centered is not appealing to me and yes all fountains sitting all together like a buffet table doesn't cup my tea either.

 

[SoFloMagic]

What could make Luminous better visually is if the fountain barges were spread out or more of them. Also water screens, fire effects and drones. Soundtrack wise I have been torn. I will say I would not be disappointed for a completely new soundtrack.

I don't think it needs to be replaced, but they do need to get rid of the friend like me/friend in me section. We alrwady have that in HEA

 

[Stripes]

Imagine if Wishes premiered today with today’s tech. That would be something.

Paris did it justice for New Years, IMO!