Joel
Well-Known Member
Finally, after all these decades, people can stop asking "what would Walt do?" It's like he's back with us now!
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News Reflections of Earth confirmed to be replaced by Harmonious
- Thread starter wdwmagic
- Start date
RoysCabin
Well-Known Member
Just watched some of this and...yikes. The last few years have been painful to watch, especially as an EPCOT Center nerd, but this might have been the thing to really break me.
I don't know, man; I'm in my mid-30s, born a few years after EPCOT Center opened. I grew up right on the cusp of the whole "Disney Renaissance" era, so I have plenty of memories of Beauty and the Beast/Aladdin/Lion King/etc. flooding the airwaves with toy ads and tie-in promotions and appearing in the parks in different ways. But it means I also still got to grow up with a Disney that felt like it didn't just want to be that, you know? The parks always felt like they contained a whole universe of things Disney wanted to have a hand in: the animated films were highlighted, certainly, but so was everything from the art of moviemaking, to "hey, check out this awesome dinosaur diorama", to properties that came from outside the Disney canon (though obviously the Muppets and Lucasfilm stuff are all under the umbrella, now), and all kinds of experiences that felt Disney without feeling like it was trying to sell you a brand called Disney. That extended to everything from new, original attractions, to theming and entertainment/shows in restaurants, to the level of guest services you'd receive in the parks and around the resort, and that vibe stuck around for a good, long while.
The original EPCOT wanted to be something else, too; it played on Walt's city idea and his futurism hobbies, and even when it shifted around the mid-90s and lost a lot of what had made it great it at least tried to remain distinct and different, so that a day at EPCOT didn't feel like a day at Magic Kingdom. And I appreciated that! Since I was a very small child, fortunate enough to grow up under circumstances that allowed my family to visit WDW around once a year, EPCOT was always where my heart was when we'd visit. Losing Dreamfinder, Horizons, and the rest was always a gut punch, but the skeleton of a monumental accomplishment in themed entertainment remained, so you could always sit there and armchair imagineer what felt like realistic solutions that, hey, maybe they'd just be a few years away!
But I think that's gone, now. Change is inevitable, no one would deny that, and the parks can't remain preserved in amber, but this just isn't EPCOT anymore. Again, even as a small child Disney meant a lot more to me than "just" Mickey and friends, or "just" the animated movies; but the more I see from the parks in recent years, the more I feel like there's less to be had from the experience if you're not going in a fully committed fan of the enormous amount of content Disney churns out every month...and I'm just not. I have plenty of Disney movies/properties I've loved throughout my life, but enjoying them never felt like a requisite for enjoying what WDW had to offer.
Again, EPCOT was the escape from that: it was the "different" park. It was, again, "Disney" without feeling like they were selling you "Disney". I'll say once more, even as a child I loved that there was a place I could go in the resort where I wasn't being bombarded with Mickey and the others (even though I still liked meeting them when I was little!), yet everything still felt authentically "Disney". But now it's not just enough to have a casual understanding of Disney's classic films and then go and enjoy the rest of what they have to offer: they expect you to be a Disney+ subscriber who isn't missing any new films from any of their major studios, who brings the kids to see every one of them even as they come out month after month after month, not every few years like the ancient days. And I don't enjoy that. I don't want to have to know who Anna and Elsa are in order to enjoy the Norway pavilion. I shouldn't need to stay on top of Pixar's or Marvel's release schedule to fully enjoy the parks. Having them around isn't so bad, MGM always had an annual parade based around the newest animated films, but they're everything now about the park experience.
And sadly, in the era of these online streaming megaservices, as seen in cynical material like the latest Space Jam movie we're just living in a world of these megacorporations sucking up every property they can get their hands on and throwing it in our faces so that we'll subscribe, buy, and build our lives around them, because "Hey, you remember THIS movie you loved as a kid?! Here, have an endless supply of it!" It's references instead of actual experiences, and it's shallow and it's dull and it's dispiriting.
I was in EPCOT in 2019, my last trip as of this writing, and literally teared up at the finale of Reflections of Earth, partly due to the knowledge it'd be the last time I'd see it but also due to the amazing musical score and the way the pyrotechnics synced up so well with it all. And then we got the word that the replacement would be...another show where they basically have you sing-a-long to your "favorite" Disney songs. Because we can't get that anywhere else? Thousands and thousands of acres of property, yet the parks all have to be homogenized: same songs, same movies, same merchandise, same "GO HOME AND SUBCRIBE TO DISNEY+ TODAY" messaging.
tl;dr - I'm not a "the past was always better!" guy. I have a MA in history, I know full well the past was usually pretty awful in most regards. But this just feels dystopian to me, and seeing it replace something as beautiful and moving as RoE feels like the straw that's breaking the camel's back for me. I wanted to get back to WDW by 2022 for the EPCOT 40th, but I'm starting to question why I'd bother...and I'm questioning why I'd bring a potential future child of mine, since there's nothing there to build a connection with outside of "look, honey, there's that character from one of the movies Disney gets me to put on a rotation to stream for you!" Scary stuff.
I don't know, man; I'm in my mid-30s, born a few years after EPCOT Center opened. I grew up right on the cusp of the whole "Disney Renaissance" era, so I have plenty of memories of Beauty and the Beast/Aladdin/Lion King/etc. flooding the airwaves with toy ads and tie-in promotions and appearing in the parks in different ways. But it means I also still got to grow up with a Disney that felt like it didn't just want to be that, you know? The parks always felt like they contained a whole universe of things Disney wanted to have a hand in: the animated films were highlighted, certainly, but so was everything from the art of moviemaking, to "hey, check out this awesome dinosaur diorama", to properties that came from outside the Disney canon (though obviously the Muppets and Lucasfilm stuff are all under the umbrella, now), and all kinds of experiences that felt Disney without feeling like it was trying to sell you a brand called Disney. That extended to everything from new, original attractions, to theming and entertainment/shows in restaurants, to the level of guest services you'd receive in the parks and around the resort, and that vibe stuck around for a good, long while.
The original EPCOT wanted to be something else, too; it played on Walt's city idea and his futurism hobbies, and even when it shifted around the mid-90s and lost a lot of what had made it great it at least tried to remain distinct and different, so that a day at EPCOT didn't feel like a day at Magic Kingdom. And I appreciated that! Since I was a very small child, fortunate enough to grow up under circumstances that allowed my family to visit WDW around once a year, EPCOT was always where my heart was when we'd visit. Losing Dreamfinder, Horizons, and the rest was always a gut punch, but the skeleton of a monumental accomplishment in themed entertainment remained, so you could always sit there and armchair imagineer what felt like realistic solutions that, hey, maybe they'd just be a few years away!
But I think that's gone, now. Change is inevitable, no one would deny that, and the parks can't remain preserved in amber, but this just isn't EPCOT anymore. Again, even as a small child Disney meant a lot more to me than "just" Mickey and friends, or "just" the animated movies; but the more I see from the parks in recent years, the more I feel like there's less to be had from the experience if you're not going in a fully committed fan of the enormous amount of content Disney churns out every month...and I'm just not. I have plenty of Disney movies/properties I've loved throughout my life, but enjoying them never felt like a requisite for enjoying what WDW had to offer.
Again, EPCOT was the escape from that: it was the "different" park. It was, again, "Disney" without feeling like they were selling you "Disney". I'll say once more, even as a child I loved that there was a place I could go in the resort where I wasn't being bombarded with Mickey and the others (even though I still liked meeting them when I was little!), yet everything still felt authentically "Disney". But now it's not just enough to have a casual understanding of Disney's classic films and then go and enjoy the rest of what they have to offer: they expect you to be a Disney+ subscriber who isn't missing any new films from any of their major studios, who brings the kids to see every one of them even as they come out month after month after month, not every few years like the ancient days. And I don't enjoy that. I don't want to have to know who Anna and Elsa are in order to enjoy the Norway pavilion. I shouldn't need to stay on top of Pixar's or Marvel's release schedule to fully enjoy the parks. Having them around isn't so bad, MGM always had an annual parade based around the newest animated films, but they're everything now about the park experience.
And sadly, in the era of these online streaming megaservices, as seen in cynical material like the latest Space Jam movie we're just living in a world of these megacorporations sucking up every property they can get their hands on and throwing it in our faces so that we'll subscribe, buy, and build our lives around them, because "Hey, you remember THIS movie you loved as a kid?! Here, have an endless supply of it!" It's references instead of actual experiences, and it's shallow and it's dull and it's dispiriting.
I was in EPCOT in 2019, my last trip as of this writing, and literally teared up at the finale of Reflections of Earth, partly due to the knowledge it'd be the last time I'd see it but also due to the amazing musical score and the way the pyrotechnics synced up so well with it all. And then we got the word that the replacement would be...another show where they basically have you sing-a-long to your "favorite" Disney songs. Because we can't get that anywhere else? Thousands and thousands of acres of property, yet the parks all have to be homogenized: same songs, same movies, same merchandise, same "GO HOME AND SUBCRIBE TO DISNEY+ TODAY" messaging.
tl;dr - I'm not a "the past was always better!" guy. I have a MA in history, I know full well the past was usually pretty awful in most regards. But this just feels dystopian to me, and seeing it replace something as beautiful and moving as RoE feels like the straw that's breaking the camel's back for me. I wanted to get back to WDW by 2022 for the EPCOT 40th, but I'm starting to question why I'd bother...and I'm questioning why I'd bring a potential future child of mine, since there's nothing there to build a connection with outside of "look, honey, there's that character from one of the movies Disney gets me to put on a rotation to stream for you!" Scary stuff.
EeyoreFan#24
Well-Known Member
Someone is trying to get ahead of being the fall guy, and I don’t blame them one bit.
trainplane3
Well-Known Member
Won't this end with Steve Davison "Leaving the company to pursue other creative experiences" and replaced with a "yes man"?Chapek vs the world.
Well said. Quoting for posterity.
brb1006
Well-Known Member
If Chapek came up with the concept of Harmonious years before becoming the next CEO of Disney. Then that deserves some major red flags for the future of Disney itself.
Quite possibly. The yes men are infecting elsewhere already.
brb1006
Well-Known Member
These next couple of years of Disney and the Disney Parks (mainly Disneyland and Walt Disney World) is going to be very, very.... interesting. I miss the days when Disney used to have a duo dynamic (Walt/Roy and Eisner/Wells). At least Tokyo Disney Resort is lucky enough to avoid most of this (due to being owned by OLC).Chapek vs the world.
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trainplane3
Well-Known Member
If they keep coming up with bad ideas, the public would still push back at least. I'm still surprised Harm is getting as beat up as it's been. I really thought it'd be loved by most people but it and Enchantment are both being received quite poorly to my surprise.
I'm curious where this will be in a year. Will people keep trying to get dinner reservations to watch this show? Or will it still be doing so poorly that restaurants around WS start making an issue to the powers that be?
I still want to see it but the soundtrack is so sloppy with crap transitions that I'm already starting to not care. It's like we're at RoL: We Are One but we never got the good soundtrack before they butchered it.
CJR
Well-Known Member
I would be sad if he left, but there's another park developing a nighttime show centered around a lagoon that I'm sure would love his consult.
I don't think it is really surprising that the idea came from the top. We've seen this many times in the past. Whenever there is a large spend, it really has to have support from that level. You may not like the idea, but was it executed as well as it could have been?
brb1006
Well-Known Member
That commented just raised an interesting question. Is John Debney and Gavin Greenaway still active with composing music for Disney (mainly the Disney Parks)? Because Steve Davidson is probably the last regular composer that's still active with Disney Parade and show music. John Debney composed the entire soundtrack form Spectromagic, while Greenaway worked on the score for "Share A Dream Come True Parade". Both parades kept the Classic Disney feel and Timelessness that's notably lacking from Disney's modern shows and parades.
trainplane3
Well-Known Member
It'd be sad but let him go someplace else that'll let him be truly creative rather then giving them so many checkboxes for a show that it'll be near impossible to be successful. Joe Rohde left to go do creative space stuff for Virgin. Tony left because he wasn't going to become a yes man.
I'd rather see someone leave and make their name better someplace else then to have their last bits of work have a reputation of "oh...you did that?!".
RoysCabin
Well-Known Member
I'm curious if we're going to hit that point sooner than some expect (though still not for awhile). I just watched some stuff on the new Secret Lives of Pets ride at Universal Hollywood, and it struck me how "classic Disney" it was in its approach: yes, it's based on an IP, one that isn't all that amazing on its own, but the ride doesn't seem to require any knowledge of the material for people to enjoy it regardless, and most importantly it seems more like it's based on an experience ("what if your pets do crazy things when you aren't around?", ala a classic "what if you were in a Caribbean port town when pirates descended on it?") than on either being a "book report ride", a glorified sing-a-long, or a ride with a "something's gone wrong!" narrative. And this is all done using tons of practical effects, not overdoing it on screens, etc.
I feel like we haven't really seen Disney do that in ages. Even just doing a practical effects heavy dark ride, like the Mermaid ride in Fantasyland, still feels like it's coming with the "but it's just a retelling of the movie" caveat that leaves it a pretty unremarkable ride to many people.
Like, I wouldn't have been saying this a few years ago, as even during my most recent trip to Universal in 2019 I felt like they were still way overdoing it on screen-based rides that ultimately felt kind of flat (and downright unrideable for anybody with even a hint of vulnerability to motion sickness), but Universal's creative decisions since the pandemic vs. Disney's has felt like two different planets' worth of difference.
bcoachable
Well-Known Member
This is my thought of what may be going on behind the curtain...
I have been on coaching staffs that the vibe was that no one better dis-like an idea the Offensive Coordinator came up with, or you were not going to be around long...
And I have been a part of staffs that were the epitimy of everyone's input was valued, weighed for accuracy, and used if it would make a positive impact. So much more fun (and successfull) to be in a group that works together rather than work for someone's ego...
Disney Analyst
Well-Known Member
This.
I’ve actually noticed as more are seeing the show in person, comments are getting more and more positive. Crowd reaction also has been loud and positive.
Are there some issues? Yes. Any show can have creative misses that may be fixed over time.
If the mandate was IP driven Disney music montage, I think Steve should be commended for taking that concept to where it is. The concept works, it could use some tweaks in places.
I find the show beautiful, exciting, and I personally love the overall message.
Those with integrity can and do that all the time. Artists decline projects all the time if there not going to fit that artists style or if it might damage there brand. I'm sure he is well off and well known, that a multitude of other projects would present themselves.
I'd go so far as to say, plan your life, so you don't have to work for a company you don't agree with.
But most folks would just throw there hands up and say, come on man... I got bills!
Tom Morrow
Well-Known Member
The overall message: Disney songs are sooo good! Everyone loves them! They even sing them in other languages!
James Alucobond
Well-Known Member
This person is an employee of the Walt Disney Company, not a rockstar freelance designer who accepts or rejects projects on a whim. He's working for a brand, not selling his personal brand. Part of that work is taking input from others, synthesizing it, working within constraints, and creating a product that fulfills the company's vision as filtered through your unique creative lens.
You're acting like he's working for the tobacco industry or big pharma and they've asked him to advertise something unethical. We're talking about a fireworks show. He's not going to quit over the proposed theme unless there are just completely untenable creative differences.