You're going to pay to ride.

[Trackmaster]

- (probably the most egregious one - and, yes, I see this being written in the future on this board): "The standby line gives those who can't afford it the option of still riding but they'll just have to wait a little longer."

I do a lot of thinking about these systems, as I go to parks of all prices, scale, and quality across the county, as I'm really into Disney and Universal, but also a major coaster enthusiast too. I use the argument that you don't like a lot, and roll my eyes at people who don't get it, but honestly I'm with you if we're talking about Universal or Disney. Six Flags has a $50 season pass that gives unlimited visits, free parking, and some discounts. Cedar Fair isn't too far behind them with the pricing. You can also get your hands on $20 or $30 tickets for those park with the scales. I'm sorry, in those cases, I'll have no problem buying my way out to give them the park experience that they deserve when their admission was $4 a day in some cases.

But I'm with you on Disney and Universal. When people are paying $140 a day for tickets, and at least in Disney's cases, $1,000+ for APs, I'm sorry Chapek, those people deserve a chance to wait in line without their capacity being stolen from them, or a free virtual queuing system with no preferences.

I just wanted to jump in and say that the tiered ticket system (just park admission only vs. buying a Fast Lane) actually makes sense for regional amusement parks where 90% of your customers can't or won't pay big prices, but there are some diehards and/or wealthy ones that you can make some more money on to subsidize the rest.

I think that Universal is a bigger offender than Disney though -- they charge the same prices as Disney, and they still sell $200-300 PER DAY Express passes on top of admission being required. And the two most popular rides aren't even on them. Disney's system is just convoluted and dumb, but the price is more or less not going to break the bank.

 

[mikejs78]

I think that about anyone who’s willing to pay for the new system.

Isn't using the laugh reaction as a way of ridiculing someone's opinion against forum rules? I get that you don't like the new system and you've become a bit bitter, but laughing at someone who presents an alternative view is not cool. I'm honestly very surprised to see that coming from you, you've always struck me as a stand-up guy.

 

[Trackmaster]

I just made a post, but I wanted to make another one since that one was getting too long already:

Its fun for me to think of the "perfect" Fast Pass system and try to tweak it based on what's fair, reasonable, and easy to understand. But the more I tinkered, the more I realized: there isn't one. The problem isn't the system, the problem is that Disney oversells, doesn't have enough rides, and the newer popular rides need better capacity/throughput. I think that the first step to solving the problem of the lines would just be for ride capacity to meet guest demand. If you don't enough seats in your park to get all of your paying guests on all of the rides (not all of the rides, but enough to make people happy) you're going to have 1+ hour lines for everything or you're going to have a goofy system that angers a lot of people and shuts people out.

It was telling that FP+ had issues from the early days with not even having enough reservations to give every guest three rides before the park opened, despite originally allocating 100% of the capacity to FP+ without considering delays in loading, breakdowns, and people who didn't know that they had to use FP+. They had to tinker with it, add stuff on FP+ that shouldn't have been on it (like shows, fireworks, and unpopular rides), added the Tier 1 system, and start putting out new FP+s randomly throughout the day to make people happy. I agree with the fixes (except I think that adding new reservations and allowing replacement when reservations are discarded is dumb), but its just hard and solid proof that Disney doesn't plan to have enough seats available for every paying customer. When you don't have enough ride capacity at your park, it isn't a virtual queue, its a robbing Peter to pay Paul system.

The paid systems are a hidden cost/upcharge, and the free systems are just a system to benefit to savvy those who can figure it out and jailbreak it.

 

[mergatroid]

Yes, skip the line systems provide a much better experience for those who previously had to accept that they couldn’t do everything they wanted because of the way they chose to vacation. That’s why they exist. Calling it cheating or sad or whatever doesn’t change that fact.

The system isn't sad. It's sad so many pay because if they didn't it wouldn't exist. The problem is that people will continue to pay because they believe that if they don't others will still anyway, so they may as well. I get that and that's why I'm saying people have the right to choose. If you asked people would you like Genie+ free, how many do you think would say "No, I prefer paying"? That's the only 'sad' part, they could do that but won't because people pay. The system isn't 'sad' and neither are those that pay. It's 'sad' that we have to pay is what I'm saying.

 

[marni1971]

Isn't using the laugh reaction as a way of ridiculing someone's opinion against forum rules? I get that you don't like the new system and you've become a bit bitter, but laughing at someone who presents an alternative view is not cool. I'm honestly very surprised to see that coming from you, you've always struck me as a stand-up guy.

It was either that or the angry emoji. But anger is such a harsh emotion. I could swap it for the sad face?

Though I wasn’t ridiculing the post.

 

[mikejs78]

It was either that or the angry emoji. But anger is such a harsh emotion. I could swap it for the sad face?

I find ridicule worse than anger. The laughing emoji should be reserved for when something is genually funny.

But regardless, I think Steve has specifically asked us not to use the laughing emoji for that purpose.

 

[marni1971]

I find ridicule worse than anger. The laughing emoji should be reserved for when something is genually funny.

But regardless, I think Steve has specifically asked us not to use the laughing emoji for that purpose.

Sorry, you missed my addition. I wasn’t ridiculing the post.

 

[UNCgolf]

I think that Universal is a bigger offender than Disney though -- they charge the same prices as Disney, and they still sell $200-300 PER DAY Express passes on top of admission being required. And the two most popular rides aren't even on them. Disney's system is just convoluted and dumb, but the price is more or less not going to break the bank.

I feel the opposite -- the Universal system is so expensive because it's actually an incredibly good system for the people who have it. The Disney one is much cheaper, but it's also terrible. If you want to ride a bunch of rides at Universal (or even ride a smaller number of rides multiple times) it's not a bad value.

I probably wouldn't pay the $200-300 for the Universal system because there are a lot of rides I don't care about there, but it also comes with a deluxe hotel room (which is why I had it) and it was really fantastic. We rode what we actually wanted to ride multiple times without waiting, which isn't possible at Disney even with the paid system.

I don't think it hinders capacity nearly as much as Disney's system either, because I never saw anyone actually waiting in line with the Express Pass (unlike at Disney, where people can still end up waiting 15-20 minutes even after paying extra). I think a much smaller percentage of guests have it than at Disney.

 

[World_Showcase_Lover007]

The parking garages are owned/operated by RCID and are not allowed to charge for their use.

Well that settles that…

Interesting that Reedy Creek owns the DS garages…didn’t know that.

also interesting that media articles claim that garages were paid by “taxpayers”.

Thing is: Reedy Creek doesn’t have any taxpayers, being only a small handful of CMs live on property. That’s some fuzzy math lol.

So where did the money for garages come from? Ultimately it comes from Disney, but i see how this would make it difficult for Disney to charge for garage access being that RC “officially” owns it. Very craft accounting trick there.

 

[jasminethecat]

Here's my unsolicited opinion - I love disney and I stick up for them a lot in my mind, but I don't get Genie+ or LL. My last WDW trip was in 2017. I really liked the old FP+ system because I like to over-plan my vacations at Disney. I get overwhelmed if I don't have a game plan, especially for the big rides and meals. I understood all the in's and out's of the old reservation systems, free dining, ADR's and FP+.

For Universal, I would stay in the deluxe resorts like UNCGolf did for their express passes because I would likely only spend 2 or at most 3 days at their parks total and I think it's worth it to skip most of the lines and sleep in a nicer hotel. For Disney, I would be willing to just have higher WDW ticket or hotel prices to be able to reserve times for my favorite rides weeks/months in advance like FP+ did. But I don't like the idea of paying extra for Genie+ just to hope to be able to use it on the day-of. Same for paying for rides - if i could pay for a reservation in advance I would take it, but if my hopes of going on RotR is based on a paid technology lottery that morning or waiting several hours in a line and hope the ride doesn't break (or that people in the freaking starcruiser don't take up the ride queue somehow) then I have to pass because some parts of my trip aren't optional in my mind.

 

[Disstevefan1]

Interesting that Reedy Creek owns the DS garages…didn’t know that.

also interesting that media articles claim that garages were paid by “taxpayers”.

Thing is: Reedy Creek doesn’t have any taxpayers, being only a small handful of CMs live on property. That’s some fuzzy math lol.

So where did the money for garages come from? Ultimately it comes from Disney, but i see how this would make it difficult for Disney to charge for garage access being that RC “officially” owns it. Very craft accounting trick there.

Well RC = WDW no matter what folks tell you.

I hope I am wrong, but I feel someday we will be paying to park there; maybe it will not be called a “parking fee”, maybe It will be called a resort fee, or maybe all non electric vehicles will be charged a carbon fee.

This is just like Fast passes. Simply charge for something that was previously free. Instant money.

 

[jasminethecat]

Interesting that Reedy Creek owns the DS garages…didn’t know that.

also interesting that media articles claim that garages were paid by “taxpayers”.

Thing is: Reedy Creek doesn’t have any taxpayers, being only a small handful of CMs live on property. That’s some fuzzy math lol.

So where did the money for garages come from? Ultimately it comes from Disney, but i see how this would make it difficult for Disney to charge for garage access being that RC “officially” owns it. Very craft accounting trick there.

Wouldn't Golden Oaks be considered as living on property? It's not huge, but they have some houses. Also couldn't some of the hotel/resort fees be considered as taxpayer revenue? Just thinking out loud.

 

[UNCgolf]

Well RC = WDW no matter what folks tell you.

I hope I am wrong, but I feel someday we will be paying to park there; maybe it will not be called a “parking fee”, maybe It will be called a resort fee, or maybe all non electric vehicles will be charged a carbon fee.

This is just like Fast passes. Simply charge for something that was previously free. Instant money.

Disney Springs is different because most of the businesses there aren't owned or run by Disney. If charging for parking eliminates some of their business because people choose to go elsewhere in Orlando instead, Disney could lose tenants and/or have to lower rent. It's not necessarily in Disney's best interests to charge for parking there.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Interesting that Reedy Creek owns the DS garages…didn’t know that.

also interesting that media articles claim that garages were paid by “taxpayers”.

Thing is: Reedy Creek doesn’t have any taxpayers, being only a small handful of CMs live on property. That’s some fuzzy math lol.

So where did the money for garages come from? Ultimately it comes from Disney, but i see how this would make it difficult for Disney to charge for garage access being that RC “officially” owns it. Very craft accounting trick there.

So what you’re saying is…

Well RC = WDW no matter what folks tell you.

I hope I am wrong, but I feel someday we will be paying to park there; maybe it will not be called a “parking fee”, maybe It will be called a resort fee, or maybe all non electric vehicles will be charged a carbon fee.

This is just like Fast passes. Simply charge for something that was previously free. Instant money.

…yep

Disney Springs is different because most of the businesses there aren't owned or run by Disney. If charging for parking eliminates some of their business because people choose to go elsewhere in Orlando instead, Disney could lose tenants and/or have to lower rent. It's not necessarily in Disney's best interests to charge for parking there.

…a valid point. I think it’s unlikely they charge there…but Disney is reedy creek. That was by design in 1964. A “municipality” that didn’t have the corporate name.

 

[trainplane3]

Wouldn't Golden Oaks be considered as living on property? It's not huge, but they have some houses. Also couldn't some of the hotel/resort fees be considered as taxpayer revenue? Just thinking out loud.

Only two neighborhoods are truly "on property". You have the two very small Bay Lake (north of Wilderness Lodge/FW) and Buena Vista (directly east of Port Orleans/north of Disney Springs) "neighborhoods". Golden Oak owners aren't considered true residents.

 

[Disstevefan1]

Disney Springs is different because most of the businesses there aren't owned or run by Disney. If charging for parking eliminates some of their business because people choose to go elsewhere in Orlando instead, Disney could lose tenants and/or have to lower rent. It's not necessarily in Disney's best interests to charge for parking there.

I hope I am wrong. Everyone wants parking to remain free. Time will tell.

 

[castlecake2.0]

Interesting that Reedy Creek owns the DS garages…didn’t know that.

also interesting that media articles claim that garages were paid by “taxpayers”.

Thing is: Reedy Creek doesn’t have any taxpayers, being only a small handful of CMs live on property. That’s some fuzzy math lol.

So where did the money for garages come from? Ultimately it comes from Disney, but i see how this would make it difficult for Disney to charge for garage access being that RC “officially” owns it. Very craft accounting trick there.

Disney pays property taxes to Reedy Creek. There was some tax breaks because it was “publicly funded” which is the reason they can’t charge for parking there now. Next time you park there you’ll notice it’s all RCID working in the garages. Definitely some ... interesting accounting there. Saying that, the whole concept of RCID and how it functions is incredibly interesting and would never be able to happen if they tried to today.

 

[Trackmaster]

I feel the opposite -- the Universal system is so expensive because it's actually an incredibly good system for the people who have it. The Disney one is much cheaper, but it's also terrible. If you want to ride a bunch of rides at Universal (or even ride a smaller number of rides multiple times) it's not a bad value.

I probably wouldn't pay the $200-300 for the Universal system because there are a lot of rides I don't care about there, but it also comes with a deluxe hotel room (which is why I had it) and it was really fantastic. We rode what we actually wanted to ride multiple times without waiting, which isn't possible at Disney even with the paid system.

I don't think it hinders capacity nearly as much as Disney's system either, because I never saw anyone actually waiting in line with the Express Pass (unlike at Disney, where people can still end up waiting 15-20 minutes even after paying extra). I think a much smaller percentage of guests have it than at Disney.

The first paragraph was unnecessary. Its so expensive because they assume no rational would pay that much, and if a few tourists are foolish enough to pay for it, they'll steal their money. Its a slight of hand to upsell the hotels. I appreciate it for the after 4 PM Express and I'll beg some of my friends for their red carpet rates for the hotels, but you'd have to be a lunatic to pay $300 when the two important rides in the resort aren't even on it. $300 to skip the line for Mummy and Gringott's? Come on. I mean, $300 is also insane, because for $550 you could just get the Premier AP and get Express all year after 4 PM. That being said, Universal's AP is very awesome, it would be nice if Disney gave us some passholder perks, but I get it -- they don't want us there in the first place and just getting free admission and parking all year round is awesome.

Strictly speaking about the Fast Pass and not the new stuff -- I would always think to myself how much more generous Fast Pass was by Express. I'd get angry at all the stand-by people they were letting breeze by when I was in Express, but they always would hook you up with Fast Pass at Disney. Universal has a rule that they try to make Express about 50% of stand-by, but it generally runs a little less, but that there's goal. Disney's rule USED TO BE drain Fast pass at all costs and don't worry about stand-by.

 

[Trackmaster]

Disney Springs is different because most of the businesses there aren't owned or run by Disney. If charging for parking eliminates some of their business because people choose to go elsewhere in Orlando instead, Disney could lose tenants and/or have to lower rent. It's not necessarily in Disney's best interests to charge for parking there.

Yeah, there's a psychological factor when it comes to "free parking." If you're charging $12 for parking everyone (in the Joker's voice) loses their minds. So let's say that he arithmetic mean of the car size that pulls into the garage is 3.0 people. They could equilibrate the prices so that the average amount that you would spend if $4 less per visit, but nobody would care. This is AMERICA, and we want FREE PARKING. For the average American, free parking might as well have been written in the Declaration of Independence.

 

[mergatroid]

Disney pays property taxes to Reedy Creek. There was some tax breaks because it was “publicly funded” which is the reason they can’t charge for parking there now. Next time you park there you’ll notice it’s all RCID working in the garages. Definitely some ... interesting accounting there. Saying that, the whole concept of RCID and how it functions is incredibly interesting and would never be able to happen if they tried to today.

True, I also believe that it's a good reason that Disney have always followed RCID rules. They know it's like the Golden Ticket and they know other parks would give anything to approve their own planning permission etc. When they were building in Orlando they had a lot of leverage and that's why RCID was allowed and set up. To go back on their agreements would cause a lot of issues so even though RCID is a branch of Disney, to not follow what they instruct would hurt them deeply.