WSJ: Even Disney Is Worried About The High Cost Of A Disney Vacation (gift link)

[Agent H]

IMO it's cause Disney makes a big production of new additions. What they should do is announce the big things at D23. Announce smaller additions through social media.

Is this not what they’ve been doing? They announced the big stuff at d23 and announced the smaller additions (muppets coaster villains show)on the parks blog.

 

[Jrb1979]

I’m confused. If attendance isn’t “it” then what’s “it”? Capacity?

Capacity isn't changing much with these new attractions coming. Yes these new attractions will be ridden more than the older ones but in terms of attraction number it doesn't change.

To your point about new attractions drawing visitors, for Disney and to an extent Universal, they don't boost attendance as much as many think. Mainly due to how early people book their visits, many don't book Disney vacations solely for new attractions.

 

[DisneyHead123]

The problem many overlook is if things continue with declining attendance, which will lower guest spending unless they raise prices again. If that does happen there is a good chance that a lot of these planed attractions have budget cuts.

It could go the opposite way though - they could see it as evidence that they really need to add things.

 

[Jrb1979]

It could go the opposite way though - they could see it as evidence that they really need to add things.

Maybe but I doubt it. New attractions aren't why numbers are down. Price and value is pushing people away. Cars and Villans isn't bringing those people back.

 

[TheCoasterNerd]

Capacity isn't changing much with these new attractions coming. Yes these new attractions will be ridden more than the older ones but in terms of attraction number it doesn't change.

To your point about new attractions drawing visitors, for Disney and to an extent Universal, they don't boost attendance as much as many think. Mainly due to how early people book their visits, many don't book Disney vacations solely for new attractions.

Attraction numbers don't equal capacity. Imagine they tear out a coaster that loads four people per minute and install an omnimover which is consistently loading - maybe ten per minute. Then you go from 240 per hour to 600 per hour. In a 14 hour day, you go from 3300 to 8400, more than doubling the amount of people who can ride each day. Same plot of land, higher capacity.

 

[Agent H]

Capacity isn't changing much with these new attractions coming. Yes these new attractions will be ridden more than the older ones but in terms of attraction number it doesn't change.

To your point about new attractions drawing visitors, for Disney and to an extent Universal, they don't boost attendance as much as many think. Mainly due to how early people book their visits, many don't book Disney vacations solely for new attractions.

Disney has publicly announced that tropical Americas will open in 2027 I think the people that want to see it will plan their trips accordingly either late this year or early 2026.

 

[Jrb1979]

Attraction numbers don't equal capacity. Imagine they tear out a coaster that loads four people per minute and install an omnimover which is consistently loading - maybe ten per minute. Then you go from 240 per hour to 600 per hour. Same plot of land, higher capacity.

I said numbers wise it till be higher, in terms of capacity as in attractions its the same number. They replaced 3 attractions with 3 attractions. That's my point.

 

[Agent H]

I said numbers wise it till be higher, in terms of capacity as in attractions its the same number. They replaced 3 attractions with 3 attractions. That's my point.

It’s fair to want more capacity. I still think animation courtyard should have been developed before grand avenue.

 

[el_super]

Maybe but I doubt it. New attractions aren't why numbers are down. Price and value is pushing people away. Cars and Villans isn't bringing those people back.

If new attractions can't bring people back, they should just close the place now and sell it for condos.

I said numbers wise it till be higher, in terms of capacity as in attractions its the same number. They replaced 3 attractions with 3 attractions. That's my point.

You're over emphasizing the importance of capacity here. If you built 100 new attractions to increase capacity to your theoretical optimum, and had to raise prices to $400-$500 a day to pay for them, attendance would nose dive and you wouldn't need all that extra capacity then. Capacity isn't just solved by more attractions, it can also be solved through pricing and operating hours. Hence there isn't much of a capacity problem at all.

 

[TheMaxRebo]

Capacity isn't changing much with these new attractions coming. Yes these new attractions will be ridden more than the older ones but in terms of attraction number it doesn't change.

To your point about new attractions drawing visitors, for Disney and to an extent Universal, they don't boost attendance as much as many think. Mainly due to how early people book their visits, many don't book Disney vacations solely for new attractions.

I assume Indy vs Dino will be a wash and not that they are pushing through more vehicles an hour

TriceratopSpin was 600 guests/hour ... Primeval whirl which was gone for a while now but if we want to include it, that is 900 guests/hour - so 1,500 guests an hour if it was full

We don't know what Encanto will but seeing comparisons to Journey into Imagination with Figment which is 2,200 guests an hour, if true omnimover then Haunted Mansion can do as much as 2.620 guests an hour

So definitely should increase capaciyt and if demand is up you are also having people in line freeing up capacity elswhere

Definitely not as much as if they flat out added a third attraction to Pandor or build a new Lion King area, but it should improve capacity at AK

 

[DisneyHead123]

Interesting note, I saw that DFB posted a video about what’s still good about Disney World, that talked a fair bit about people having negative attitudes about Disney right now. I don’t know if that’s correct (that a lot of people have negative attitudes about Disney right now,) and maybe they just wanted a fresh angle to reach different viewers, but that was the first time I’ve seen a really pro-Disney channel flat out say that lots of people are complaining “The magic is gone”.

 

[Jrb1979]

If new attractions can't bring people back, they should just close the place now and sell it for condos.




You're over emphasizing the importance of capacity here. If you built 100 new attractions to increase capacity to your theoretical optimum, and had to raise prices to $400-$500 a day to pay for them, attendance would nose dive and you wouldn't need all that extra capacity then. Capacity isn't just solved by more attractions, it can also be solved through pricing and operating hours. Hence there isn't much of a capacity problem at all.

A good example is the people that find Disney too expensive now and not worth the cost., you honestly think Cars or Villains is going to make those people come back?

Capacity is very important. LLs and after hour parties are why people stopped going. If they had more to do, and longer hours, they wouldn't to rely on virtual queues and after hours to move crowds around. You don't need to spend a fortune to add capacity. More shows, things like the Citizens of Hollywood would help a lot for capacity.

 

[Laketravis]

IMO what is hurting them the most is going away from that all inclusive feel they used to have. While Disney was always high priced, once you paid for it, almost everything was included when you got there.

A simplistic analogy is that WDW parks were very much like a Golden Corral - pay one price to get inside "The best buffet in the USA!" and enjoy an unlimited amount of many different items included.

But if Golden Corral were to raise the entry price to premium steakhouse levels while reducing the quality of the items available, charging extra for some items, removing other items completely and limiting the amount allowed on the rest, there would be no doubt they are on a path to self destruction. And I no longer believe adding capacity is the solution when it's provided under these conditions.

 

[John park hopper]

As a younger person, I often kinda wish I could experince the mythical “WDW in the 90s/back then” that everyone talks about. Alot of stuff looks cool. Though I’m sure it had its problems like wdw has now. Nostalgia is a funny thing for us fans. We probably see the past better than it was.

Though I do accept my fate of eventually being doomed to berate how WDW was “better back in my day” with no genie+, river, the rides, ect, and how “chapek and iger” muddled with everything. Its inevitable. Especially as an Epcot person.

Well the 70's and 80's were the best of WDW IMO the 90's were good also WDW was run totally different and that is not from rose colored glasses.

 

[el_super]

A good example is the people that find Disney too expensive now and not worth the cost., you honestly think Cars or Villains is going to make those people come back?

Of course. They're a theme park. Their business is building new attractions.

What is the alternative? Lower prices, stop spending and hope that people keep coming for new popcorn buckets? That high volume business model certainly can work, and worked for a great many years, but they pretty much hit the ceiling on what the parks could support and couldn't show any growth going forward without a reset.

I think they will be fine. If you imagine that their pricing and offerings are on a sliding scale between high prices and more offerings, and low prices and low offerings, they will always end up putting out one group or the other.

Capacity is very important. LLs and after hour parties are why people stopped going. If they had more to do, and longer hours, they wouldn't to rely on virtual queues and after hours to move crowds around. You don't need to spend a fortune to add capacity. More shows, things like the Citizens of Hollywood would help a lot for capacity.

I'm absolutely convinced that the people who say "they need to add more shows" are the ones secretly hoping everyone else goes to those shows so the attraction lines are shorter for themselves.

The parties are not a reason why people stopped going. They are well attended and prove that people want to pay more for lower crowds and a better experience.

Offering a two-tier model is a compromise that works for them. They can have "regular" park hours with a busier park for a reduced rate, or a premium experience for a higher rate. People get to choose the experience they want or can afford.

Same goes for Lightning Lane. They could raise prices and lower attendance to a point where Lightning Lane isn't needed, but that would price out more people.

Some people want to go and pay the absolute minimum necessary. But you can't keep a premium product on that model.

 

[el_super]

Well the 70's and 80's were the best of WDW IMO the 90's were good also WDW was run totally different and that is not from rose colored glasses.

Was that before or after they started charging one price for entry?

A lot of those supposed "capacity" problems could be solved by just charging for individual attractions again.

 

[Jrb1979]

Of course. They're a theme park. Their business is building new attractions.

What is the alternative? Lower prices, stop spending and hope that people keep coming for new popcorn buckets? That high volume business model certainly can work, and worked for a great many years, but they pretty much hit the ceiling on what the parks could support and couldn't show any growth going forward without a reset.

I think they will be fine. If you imagine that their pricing and offerings are on a sliding scale between high prices and more offerings, and low prices and low offerings, they will always end up putting out one group or the other.



I'm absolutely convinced that the people who say "they need to add more shows" are the ones secretly hoping everyone else goes to those shows so the attraction lines are shorter for themselves.

The parties are not a reason why people stopped going. They are well attended and prove that people want to pay more for lower crowds and a better experience.

Offering a two-tier model is a compromise that works for them. They can have "regular" park hours with a busier park for a reduced rate, or a premium experience for a higher rate. People get to choose the experience they want or can afford.

Same goes for Lightning Lane. They could raise prices and lower attendance to a point where Lightning Lane isn't needed, but that would price out more people.

Some people want to go and pay the absolute minimum necessary. But you can't keep a premium product on that model.

Bolded is where the disconnect is. Disney is a premium product only when compared to regional parks. When you start comparing it to cruises and luxury European vacations it's not in the same ball park.

Disney needs to add more lower tier attractions as well as shows to spread out the crowds. If they add about 10 attractions to each park then the parks could support 2019 levels.

The answer is not to keep raising prices to lower attendance. Eventually you run out of people willing to pay those prices for a premium theme park. The demographic they are after, very few are interested in theme parks

 

[threvester]

If new attractions can't bring people back, they should just close the place now and sell it for condos.




You're over emphasizing the importance of capacity here. If you built 100 new attractions to increase capacity to your theoretical optimum, and had to raise prices to $400-$500 a day to pay for them, attendance would nose dive and you wouldn't need all that extra capacity then. Capacity isn't just solved by more attractions, it can also be solved through pricing and operating hours. Hence there isn't much of a capacity problem at all.

Who pays for new attractions anymore?...ILL takes care of that

 

[TheMaxRebo]

Maybe but I doubt it. New attractions aren't why numbers are down. Price and value is pushing people away. Cars and Villans isn't bringing those people back.

I do think there are some people that were used to coming annually but felt with the increased pricing and not a lot new are taking a break and the new stuff coming could entice them to come back ... maybe not to the extent they were before but some ... and could bring in new people that are excited about the new stuff

 

[Naplesgolfer]

Maybe but I doubt it. New attractions aren't why numbers are down. Price and value is pushing people away. Cars and Villans isn't bringing those people back.

When there is more to do/ride in a park, doesn't that increase the value for money paid?