Would You Take a Bullet Train from Anaheim to Las Vegas?... Brightline West

[truecoat]

Back in 2012, I drove from Las Vegas to Anaheim as part of a bigger trip. We spent one day in LV on our way to California. After a tour of the Hoover Dam, we headed to LA on that Sunday with a planned boat ride in Newport to see the Christmas lights.

Nightmare drive. We sat in traffic for 3 hours and there was only one reason...the Valley Wells Rest Area. It's small and all the traffic headed back to the LA area is stopping there and clogging up the highway. As soon as we made it past this spot it was free sailing but we were too late to make it to the boat and missed our chance.

I would hop on this train in a heartbeat if I was just going to or from Vegas. After riding trains in England and to France, it is a great way to travel.

 

[TP2000]

I would hop on this train in a heartbeat if I was just going to or from Vegas. After riding trains in England and to France, it is a great way to travel.

I've been a big fan of train travel my whole life, and still remember having Santa Fe french toast in the dining car with my grandparents. Since Amtrak began, I have taken several of Amtrak's premier routes in a sleeping car, and have done the Coast Starlight too many times to count now.

I also convinced friends and neighbors to vote yes on Prop 1A back in 2008 to spend Billions of our tax dollars on California High Speed Rail; and yes, I had to eat plenty of crow at neighborhood barbecues and parties by the late 2010's on that disastrous debacle. Oops!

But this Brightline West thing seems very different. It helps that it already exists and is successful in Florida. That it's coming to the Southwest so quickly and so competently (thus far) is also a good sign. The Brightline folks really do seem to be doing stuff, instead of just holding endless bureaucracy meetings and issuing vapid press releases.

The thing is though, Brightline simply HAS TO get this train further into the LA metro area. Whether that's down to Anaheim's nearly abandoned ARTIC station meant for high speed rail, or in to LA Union Station, either one has to happen. My preference would be for both, tapping into the huge tourism market Anaheim represents. The only thing that gives me pause so far on Brightline West is the plan to terminate in Rancho Cucamonga. That might handicap the ridership right at the start, and they may never recover.

It would also bring back the old Jack Benny and Beach Boys comedy line of "Anaheim, Azusa and Cu-ca-monga!"

TP2000's Map To Ridership Success

 

[Professortango1]

I've been a big fan of train travel my whole life, and still remember having Santa Fe french toast in the dining car with my grandparents. Since Amtrak began, I have taken several of Amtrak's premier routes in a sleeping car, and have done the Coast Starlight too many times to count now.

I also convinced friends and neighbors to vote yes on Prop 1A back in 2008 to spend Billions of our tax dollars on California High Speed Rail; and yes, I had to eat plenty of crow at neighborhood barbecues and parties by the late 2010's on that disastrous debacle. Oops!

But this Brightline West thing seems very different. It helps that it already exists and is successful in Florida. That it's coming to the Southwest so quickly and so competently (thus far) is also a good sign. The Brightline folks really do seem to be doing stuff, instead of just holding endless bureaucracy meetings and issuing vapid press releases.

The thing is though, Brightline simply HAS TO get this train further into the LA metro area. Whether that's down to Anaheim's nearly abandoned ARTIC station meant for high speed rail, or in to LA Union Station, either one has to happen. My preference would be for both, tapping into the huge tourism market Anaheim represents. The only thing that gives me pause so far on Brightline West is the plan to terminate in Rancho Cucamonga. That might handicap the ridership right at the start, and they may never recover.

It would also bring back the old Jack Benny and Beach Boys comedy line of "Anaheim, Azusa and Cu-ca-monga!"

TP2000's Map To Ridership Success
View attachment 776668

What's wrong with taking the Metro to Rancho to ride the express train? Doesn't make sense to needlessly extend it into OC/LA.

 

[TP2000]

What's wrong with taking the Metro to Rancho to ride the express train? Doesn't make sense to needlessly extend it into OC/LA.

It's been proven over and over again around the world; when you require people to ride a first train to then transfer to the real train they're trying to get on that takes them there, ridership decreases. Especially Americans who have easy access to their own cars that can quickly cut out that middle man, thus weakening the entire premise of taking the train in the first place.

If you are building a business plan on cross-platform transfers, it's already a weak starting point. And if your first leg of the journey is to take commuter rail, or even worse - metro light rail, both forms of transportation that are not set up to be friendly to tourism demographics with kids and luggage, then you've damaged the entire business model before the first train even leaves the station.

I couldn't have done this any better if I tried.... I just Googled "Metro Gold Line train car" to try and find an image that showed how narrow the seats were without room for a piece or two of luggage, and instead I got this as the first Google image. Welcome aboard the LA Metro Gold Line, your Fun Start Transfer Train to a fabulous vacation!...

I know they were getting funding to extend the Gold Line (or whatever it's called now) to Ontario Airport a few years ago. Don't know where that stands now, or if they are still trying to extend the Metro any further past Montclair.

If I Google up "Metrolink commuter rail train car" to demonstrate the lack of luggage/travel space on those high density commuter trains, you at least get a safer and better smelling class of people than the LA Metro. But the size restraints of those cars and seats without luggage racks are about the same as the LA Metro.

Honestly, I'm sure 95%+ of the people in SoCal who look at this map just think "Well, we'd have to drive to Rancho Cucamonga first and then get on the train...".

And god help the folks from the Las Vegas market who want to go to "Disneyland!" or "Hollywood!" or "the beach!" and realize the train stops 45 miles from their ultimate coastal destination. No one wants to go on vacation in Rancho Cucamonga, so why does the train end there?

If Brightline West is to succeed, it needs to get much closer to the coastal tourist sites and population centers in LA and OC.

 

[TP2000]

I just checked;

Metrolink runs 17 trains per day from LA Union Station to Rancho Cucamonga on weekdays; roughly once per hour from 7am until 8:30pm with a few extra trains between 4:45pm and 6:00pm for evening rush hour. So, it's doable if you don't try and take luggage as a family or group.

On Sundays, when most SoCal'ers would come home from Las Vegas, there are only 4 trains in the afternoon and evening from Rancho Cucamonga to LA Union Station; a 2pm, 3pm, 6pm and 8pm train westbound. Metrolink would need to beef up Sunday westbound service to get Brightline passengers back towards LA for onward connections/drives. Would Metrolink, heavily subsidized by state and local governments, do that for a private railroad like Brightline I wonder?

With that said, 95% is probably a huge understatement of the people who would just drive out to Rancho Cucamonga to take the Brightline train. But again, that sort of defeats the purpose of the whole thing and weakens the business case. Troubling.

 

[TP2000]

Las Vegas TV news is hyping Brightline West construction again today. It really does seem to be happening, and moving beyond just a splashy website and intern-authored press releases.

I'm driving down I-15 to San Diego tomorrow afternoon for this weekend's Councours event and to open up the beach house for perhaps the last summer of use. I am looking forward to trying to spot some Brightline scouting crews along the way!

Construction preparation starts for high-speed rail between Nevada, California

Field investigation work started for Brightline West's high-speed rail between Southern California and Nevada.

www.fox5vegas.com

 

[mattpeto]

Any idea how long would it take from Vegas to Anaheim via a bullet train?

 

[truecoat]

Any idea how long would it take from Vegas to Anaheim via a bullet train?

About 2 hours to get to the Rancho Cucamonga station and another 2+ hours to get to Anaheim from that station according to the Metrolink schedule.

 

[NobodyElse]

In somewhat related news, Caltrain has electrified their tracks between San Francisco and San Jose.

Railway-News

(If I come across the story I read earlier, I'll post it as well. It went into further detail about the new trains, improved schedules, etc.)

One of the byproducts is that if/when the Cal HS rail finally makes its way from Madera or Merced across to Gilroy and up to San Jose, it will be able to continue (at lower speeds) on up to SF. The potential parallel here would be if Metrolink were to electrify from Rancho Cucamonga to Union Station and/or ARTIC, the infrastructure would be in place for non-transfer travel on Brightline trains from Las Vegas to Los Angeles or Anaheim.

 

[truecoat]

Let's say you wanted to get from Los Vegas to Disneyland.

Brightline round trip is about $120 for the cheapest ticket based on the current line in Florida going from Miami to Orlando.

Metrolink from Cucamonga station to Anaheim, 21.00 round trip.

Uber to your hotel and back, $50 round trip probably less.

About 5 hours each way with 2 train changes and roughly 165 per person if going as a couple.

 

[mattpeto]

About 2 hours to get to the Rancho Cucamonga station and another 2+ hours to get to Anaheim from that station according to the Metrolink schedule.

5 hours doesn't sound great but looks to be 4+ driving not taking into account traffic.

 

[Professortango1]

5 hours doesn't sound great but looks to be 4+ driving not taking into account traffic.

Yeah, it has taken me 7+ hours in traffic to get from Vegas to Riverside. Which is about 40 minutes to an hour closer than Anaheim. I'd be first in line for that train as the drive from Vegas has been why I rarely go anymore.

 

[TP2000]

I saw 'em! There were Brightline crews in vests and with surveying equipment working along several stretches of I-15 yesterday afternoon in both Nevada and California.

I almost honked and waved at the first crew I saw, but then thought otherwise as I didn't want to scare them or alarm other drivers. So instead I just waved at them at 80mph like an idiot.

 

[TP2000]

Brightline is touting a 2 hour 10 minute travel time from Las Vegas to Rancho Cucamonga, at speeds up to 200mph over much of its route.

It's a 35 mile rail segment from Rancho Cucamonga to Anaheim, but I'm not sure Metrolink is the best analogy as that's not a direct line and requires a transfer and backtrack to San Bernardino and includes over a dozen station stops.

I would imagine that even if the final 35 miles to Anaheim were at regular track speed of 60 to 79mph instead of the higher 200mph Brightline West will go through the desert, because there would be no stops for Brightline West that final segment, the trip time from Rancho Cucamonga to Anaheim would add another 40 to 45 minutes onto the trip time (including a 5 minute station stop at Rancho Cucamonga).

So... Las Vegas to Anaheim in just under 3 hours.

If they electrified the route between Cucamonga and Anaheim and did 125mph, it would be about 2 hours and 30 minutes between Las Vegas and Anaheim

 

[truecoat]

Brightline is touting a 2 hour 10 minute travel time from Las Vegas to Rancho Cucamonga, at speeds up to 200mph over much of its route.

It's a 35 mile rail segment from Rancho Cucamonga to Anaheim, but I'm not sure Metrolink is the best analogy as that's not a direct line and requires a transfer and backtrack to San Bernardino and includes over a dozen station stops.

I would imagine that even if the final 35 miles to Anaheim were at regular track speed of 60 to 79mph instead of the higher 200mph Brightline West will go through the desert, because there would be no stops for Brightline West that final segment, the trip time from Rancho Cucamonga to Anaheim would add another 40 to 45 minutes onto the trip time (including a 5 minute station stop at Rancho Cucamonga).

So... Las Vegas to Anaheim in just under 3 hours.

If they electrified the route between Cucamonga and Anaheim and did 125mph, it would be about 2 hours and 30 minutes between Las Vegas and Anaheim

That would be so awesome. I'd grab a cheap flight to Vegas for a day or two then off to Disneyland via the train.

 

[TP2000]

FYI, the max speed for Metrolink routes in SoCal is 90mph, but in many stretches it's 79mph.

The problem is that there are station stops every 5 to 10 miles, so Metrolink trains are constantly slowing down and stopping, which adds a lot of time to the travel.

A non-stop route from the Cucamonga station to Anaheim at 79mph would take 30 minutes or less, but you'd need to attach a diesel locomotive to the train at Cucamonga to finish the journey. If you electrified that final leg of the route to Anaheim and got up to 125mph, it would be 20 minutes or less from Cucamonga to Anaheim.

Which is why I really do think Brightline West has just GOT TO figure out a way to get their trains to the abandoned and unloved Anaheim ARTIC station, which was vastly overbuilt for the California High Speed Rail system that will no longer go there.

 

[captveg]

At least with Brightline they believe that part of the way to get better infrastructure built is to at least have a key operational section that can sell itself as a proof of concept. Getting the Rancho > Anaheim section electrified is a far easier argument / proposal once the Vegas > Rancho train is operating.

 

[TP2000]

At least with Brightline they believe that part of the way to get better infrastructure built is to at least have a key operational section that can sell itself as a proof of concept. Getting the Rancho > Anaheim section electrified is a far easier argument / proposal once the Vegas > Rancho train is operating.

Well, that's true. I just hope it's successful enough with the Rancho Cucamonga logistical setup.

But either Anaheim ARTIC or LA Union Station needs to be the ultimate goal terminus for Brightline West. It's obvious that California High Speed Rail will never arrive at either of those stations, at least not before 2050. So why not use their current and planned expansions to host a real high speed rail line?

And I'd have to think the entire business model works much better if you connect to a major tourism magnet like Disneyland.

 

[NobodyElse]

FWIW, here's a little post-groundbreaking video regarding Brightline West.


At about 8:27, Wes Edens is asked about over time connecting Rancho Cucamonga to Union Station. He says they are connected via Metrolink (technically true). He'd love to see that line get electrified "and get down there" but that's not part of the current plan. Anaheim didn't come up at all.

Something else I kind of forgot about when I suggested electrifying the Metrolink tracks to Union Station to continue without changing trains was that Rancho Cucamonga is supposed to feature a separate, raised track. They would need to build a sloped connector somewhere (or add the expense of keeping their track raised for as long as possible). I don't know if the current right of way would allow for that.

Just random thoughts...

 

[TP2000]

FWIW, here's a little post-groundbreaking video regarding Brightline West.


At about 8:27, Wes Edens is asked about over time connecting Rancho Cucamonga to Union Station. He says they are connected via Metrolink (technically true). He'd love to see that line get electrified "and get down there" but that's not part of the current plan. Anaheim didn't come up at all.

I'm afraid the whole Anaheim thing only came from the pointless musings of a crazy man. Namely, me.

I just thought the idea made sense, since Anaheim already built a huge train station for a California High Speed Rail system that will never arrive there. Plus, you know, there's Disneyland down the street.

I drove home yesterday and the Brightline crews were still doing surveying along I-15 in both California and Nevada. I made my obligatory stop at Ceasars' for dinner at Bacchannal, and as I was there way before my reservation time I drove around and scoped out the location for the new Brightline station off the strip. Yup, it's a vacant lot with splashy signage still, but it really does seem to be happening!