lazyboy97o
Well-Known Member
The High Desert Corridor is not a Brightline project. It’s a third, local government project separate from Brightline West and California High Speed Rail.
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Would You Take a Bullet Train from Anaheim to Las Vegas?... Brightline West
- Thread starter TP2000
- Start date
Hypothetically, yes. Realistically, no. Even if by "realistically" you acknowledge that the CHSR won't begin service until the mid 2030's at the very earliest between the glamour capitals of Bakersfield and Merced, it would be well into the 2040's before CHSR might make it south of Bakersfield to Palmdale.
But honestly? At this point, it's not wise to pin our hopes on some future CHSR service arriving anytime in the first half of the 21st century.
Unless, of course, a private railroad were to take it over and build it within a decade or less. Like the parent company Florida East Coast Industries and their Brightline passenger train division seems obviously able to do. Which is why I'm of the opinion Brightline West should work on a quick Phase 2, if not a Phase 1.1, of extending the line from Cucamonga down to Anaheim's nearly abandoned ARTIC bullet train station.
In theory, yes.
But not in the lifetime of anyone here in this thread, unless we've got some junior high students here who might take that one-transfer trip when they are in their 60's.
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Oh. So, it won't be happening then?
NobodyElse
Well-Known Member
Thank you for pointing this out. (Despite some of the slick renderings omitting the wires) I'm surprised I didn't take them into consideration. In the past, I've often wondered about inter-operability. It seems like we have a fairly efficient means of moving people and goods with our largely two-level passenger carriages and double-stacked container flatbeds. but it seems like those would not leave proper clearance for overhead catenary wires. I'll have to try and look that up.
lazyboy97o
Well-Known Member
There are duplex high speed rail systems. TGV is particular uses a lot of duplex trains. If it’s planned for, it is possible for even high speed trains to be able to operate in different conditions. The Northeast Corridor still has legacy electrification that pre-dates Amtrak and Acela is able to move between these different systems which even vary in how much power they provide. Europe also has some lines with different requirements as they cross borders.
It’s not just track gauge and electrification. There are other potential issues like loading gauge, platform heights and even station length. Go look up at some of the issues over in Miami. Amtrak was supposed to move to Miami Intermodal Center next to the airport, but the station platforms are not long enough for the trains Amtrak runs in the winter and roads will now have to be closed while trains are at the station. Tri-Rail, the local commuter train service, has not yet been able to extend service to Brightline’s Miami Central terminal due to issues with clearances and even concerns about the weight that can be accommodated by the elevated tracks. So even where you had the same track gauge and diesel power, the three different operators are not using trains that can just pull into each other’s stations.
NobodyElse
Well-Known Member
More random stuff:
According to a letter found HERE, Brightline West is planning on running Siemens Velaro Novo trains, which are (or will be) their latest and greatest. They can apparently handle slightly steeper grades than their previous generation, which will come in handy heading up the Cajon Pass. I look forward to checking those out.
Another note about trying to connect Anaheim to Las Vegas: When I took the previously mentioned Amtrak trip (from Fullerton) the route basically paralleled the 91 / 215 freeway. Trying to re-use that route would probably call for some odd detouring from San Bernardino back to Rancho Cucamonga. Not very desirable. More of a blue-sky route would be to continue the Brightline path on down the 15 (if possible) connecting up with the 91 corridor somewhere in Corona, but that would still make for an awkward spur to the R.C. station.
I think a more likely (without being likely) scenario would be continuing from R.C. on into Union Station. Then sometime long after that adding a line from Union Station to ARTIC. It's up to future generations to see if something like that ever happens.
According to a letter found HERE, Brightline West is planning on running Siemens Velaro Novo trains, which are (or will be) their latest and greatest. They can apparently handle slightly steeper grades than their previous generation, which will come in handy heading up the Cajon Pass. I look forward to checking those out.
Another note about trying to connect Anaheim to Las Vegas: When I took the previously mentioned Amtrak trip (from Fullerton) the route basically paralleled the 91 / 215 freeway. Trying to re-use that route would probably call for some odd detouring from San Bernardino back to Rancho Cucamonga. Not very desirable. More of a blue-sky route would be to continue the Brightline path on down the 15 (if possible) connecting up with the 91 corridor somewhere in Corona, but that would still make for an awkward spur to the R.C. station.
I think a more likely (without being likely) scenario would be continuing from R.C. on into Union Station. Then sometime long after that adding a line from Union Station to ARTIC. It's up to future generations to see if something like that ever happens.
Thank you! I'll have to check that info out!
Agreed. I thought of those various alignment options also, although I had to look at maps as I don't have personal experience with Metrolink's Inland Empire routes, only their OC routes.
It looks like there's plenty of existing transfer curves and land that you could make the curve eastbound out of the Cucamonga station south to the Metrolink's Inland Empire/OC trunk line down to Corona. And then, as you say, onward through the Anaheim Canyon route towards ARTIC via the Santa Fe spur through Orange that Metrolink uses.
There are direct, existing rail connections at all those key junctions; Rialto, Riverside, and just a half mile south of ARTIC headed north towards Cucamonga. It's all rail that currently exists, and almost all of it is already in daily use by Metrolink.
The wild card option, and likely the best option, is for Brightline West to build a new line the four miles due south from their Cucamonga Station to the Pedley area where Metrolink runs a route to the Anaheim Canyon line. You'd need to go along, or over, Milliken Avenue for much of those 4 miles, but it's all industrial or commercial area without any adjacent housing, so that's a plus.
For a private company like Brightline that can get things done, it's certainly doable.
The problem with that is that its Los Angeles. And you're dealing with Union Station, which has made almost no headway on their decades-old plans to build a high speed rail facility at Union Station. There's been big talk, and all talk, for years about finally building out a loop of rail to prevent Union Station from being the inefficient stub line station its been since it opened in the 1930's.
But so far its just talk. Lots and lots of talk. With occasional chatter amongst the talk. For decades now.
Anaheim already has a modern, full size bullet train station that was designed and built to handle 50,000+ passengers per day. But since Sacramento has proven to be inept, that ARTIC station is sitting nearly abandoned and largely unused. So use it!
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truecoat
Well-Known Member
Here's a little info on Brighline schedules. I looked up a one-way ticket from Orlando to Miami on Friday, Oct 6th. The cost was 79 bucks and they offer a whopping 16 trains that day. The first one leaves at 5 am and the last time to leave was 8:50 pm. I would expect the line going to Vegas to have a similar schedule.
Brightline seems to be quite flexible with their schedules too, adding trains as needed as demand and activities dictate.
I looked at their weekend schedule earlier in this thread for this weekend, and found they had 20 trains in one day departing downtown Miami, with three separate trains leaving in quick succession every 15 minutes from 11:30pm to 12:15am called "Buzzer Beaters" on their website. I assume that's a reference to a late night basketball game?
Or is "Buzzer Beater" some sort of euphemism the kids are using now that I don't want to know about?
But on the average day, they have 16 to 18 trains per day, leaving once per hour. Incredible!
New article today in Las Vegas papers...
Japan built and opened its first bullet train for the 1964 Tokyo Summer Olympics.
Brightline wants to do the same for the 2028 Los Angeles Summer Olympics, linking Las Vegas to the games for... gaming.
www.reviewjournal.com
"Plans call for laying a mile of track per day for 270 days in order to meet the Olympic deadline."
Japan built and opened its first bullet train for the 1964 Tokyo Summer Olympics.
Brightline wants to do the same for the 2028 Los Angeles Summer Olympics, linking Las Vegas to the games for... gaming.
Brightline striving to be on track for ’28 L.A. Olympic Games
Brightline CEO Mike Reininger noted they are prepared to break ground on the $12 billion project this year, pending regulatory approval and the securing of a federal grant.
www.reviewjournal.com
"Plans call for laying a mile of track per day for 270 days in order to meet the Olympic deadline."
MoonRakerSCM
Well-Known Member
It's not my firm, but we're sort of a niche industry and we all know each other and work alongside each other for the most part. A few geologists I know were on the project and a bunch of drillers I contract with were on it (made it a nightmare to get jobs done for over a year because they were always booked and out in the mojave!).I wanted to come back to this post. I had no idea you were employed by a firm that was involved in this Brightline West project!
Without putting your employer or yourself at risk, what's your opinion on this Brightline project getting up and running by the time the '28 Olympics kick off? As you say, Brightline really seems to be "getting things done" as America's first private passenger railroad in many decades, and Brightline's current success in Florida is testament to that.
But even though Brightline is a private firm, which I've learned is a wholly owned division of Florida East Coast Industries and a direct descendent of Henry Flagler's industrial empire, they need cooperation from local/state governments. Do you think Brightline will be as successful at getting this on track (pun intended) and running in California?
Las Vegas seems to have leaders who are able to get big private projects approved and built, as their recent proven ability to steal mutliple pro sports teams from California cities and get them into dazzling new facilities clearly demonstrates.
In learning of this whole Brightline West thing from the local Las Vegas news media and hearing the full throated support it has from political leaders in Clark County and Carson City, I am not in the least bit worried that Las Vegas and Nevada will be able to uphold their end of the bargain to get Brightline going. But 90% of the line will be across the border in California.
As for California?... I'm less confident, but optimistically hopeful. Any insight you can offer to give us more hope is appreciated!
I'll say this... it comes down to their management. If they have competent people in charge who understand all the needs of every single entity and organization that is involved and can corral the cats... they can do great things.
That being said... "laying a mile of track per day for 270 days" is insane... IF they can achieve anything near that, then can do anything and are beyond impressive.
Gosh, it’s almost as though you are describing the management that made Disneyland run so well and be such great hosts for ten+ million guests per year in the 1960’s, 1970’s, 1980’s and 1990’s…. Dick Nunis, Ron Dominguez, Jack Lindquist, John Cora, etc.
To your point, great things ARE humanly possible when the humans in charge are competent and have an innate and clear understanding of what the organization’s goals are, the standards by which the results are measured, and how the entire organization works to achieve those goals.
It’s not rocket science if you get that, but it’s still hard work that demands great talents to pull it off.
TrainsOfDisney
Well-Known Member
There are places on the Amtrak system where auto racks and superliners run under catenary. It’s definitely possible.
I wouldn’t call 10 Amtrak trains a day “nearly abandoned” but it would be nice to see it get more.
Thank you. I thought the same thing. I know the Superliners are prevented from using many routes east of Chicago because of lower tunnel heights from pre World War 1, but that modern catenary systems were able to be worked around with easy modifications. I was going to look into that more, but kept forgetting.
I still need to do some research into the feasibility of an electric train also using tracks used by double decker Metrolinks or Amtrak Superliners that call regularly in Anaheim. But I’ve been dedicated recently to some relandscaping for the first summer in my new house. I just need to focus bit more!
Valid point. There are many midsize to large US cities that would be envious of the dally Amtrak schedule of regional trains Anaheim has, with direct connections to cross-country trains like the Southwest Chief and Sunset Limited that call at Fullerton.
My point there was only to reinforce that ARTIC was designed and built to accomodate 50,000+ passengers per day in the 2020’s as the final southern terminus of the failed California High Speed Rail system to San Francisco. That is a train that will never arrive at the station, but they didn’t know that in 20111 when ARTIC was approved to be built with $180 Million in California taxpayer’s hard earned money.
It is “nearly abaondoned” with barely 1,000 passengers per day only because it was supposed to have 51,000 per day this decade. Oops!
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@TrainsOfDisney, you will likely appreciate this OT thought, since you are a person who can obviously use the word “Superliner” in a sentence…
My interest in train travel came to me in adulthood, not boyhood as usual. In 1978 I remember going to a big Amtrak exhibit when they were taking the first batch of Superliner cars around the country on a publicity tour. They were built by Budd, but specifically for Amtrak to help retire the ragtag fleet that Amtrak started with in ‘71. It was such a big deal to go see these huge new modern double decker trains with domed lounges and fancy diners and mod Disco Era interiors with carpeting everywhere except the ceiling! And who knew the color brown came in so many shades?!?
It also helped that NBC had their glitzy drama TV show “Supertrain” at the time. I just wish I’d have saved the brochures and snazzy freebies Amtrak gave out at the debut Superliner exhibit!
My interest in train travel came to me in adulthood, not boyhood as usual. In 1978 I remember going to a big Amtrak exhibit when they were taking the first batch of Superliner cars around the country on a publicity tour. They were built by Budd, but specifically for Amtrak to help retire the ragtag fleet that Amtrak started with in ‘71. It was such a big deal to go see these huge new modern double decker trains with domed lounges and fancy diners and mod Disco Era interiors with carpeting everywhere except the ceiling! And who knew the color brown came in so many shades?!?
It also helped that NBC had their glitzy drama TV show “Supertrain” at the time. I just wish I’d have saved the brochures and snazzy freebies Amtrak gave out at the debut Superliner exhibit!
NobodyElse
Well-Known Member
I guess for academic purposes, I'm wondering if they could electrify the existing tacks between (for instance) Union Station and Rancho Cucamonga, in case they wanted to make that extension at normal speeds. I assume much of that route is shared freight and passenger traffic. From what I can gather, Metrolink cars have a height of 15' 11'. Double-stack container cars run somewhere between 18' 2" and 20' 3". ( I also saw 21' 6" mentioned on a train discussion board.) What I'm unsure of is the height of the contact wires for these new HSR trains, and how variable is that figure based on the flexibility of the pantograph.
I did find THIS which contains the following excerpt:
So for the proposed Cal HSR, they want the wire to be at 17' 5" for dedicated tracks, and 18' 9" for shared (lower speed) sections. So with that in mind, it seems reasonable to extend Brightline to Union Station, or even ARTIC on existing rails, provided potential freight is regulated to stay under that height (which for all I know it may already be in this region).
(Thanks for letting me ramble.)
TrainsOfDisney
Well-Known Member
Very true. They did need a replacement for the small station and platform that served Anaheim at the time though. Certainly building for the future was a good idea… the future is going to take a little longer though unfortunately.
Oh very cool!!!
I hate to bump an old thread, but I just drove 6 hours across the desert and about 4 of those hours were on I-15 along the alignment this private railroad would/could/should take.
While I glided along with the distronic set at 82mph through 200 miles of ridiculously ignored 70mph zone, being passed routinely by speed demons doing 85+, I still had plenty of time to stare at that giant empty I-15 median and the surrounding moonscape of desert. This project needs to happen, there's just so much possibility with that stretch of I-15 between the Cajon Pass and the Rose Parkway interchange that it would be stupid not to.
And it would be fun to see the speed demons doing 90mph get passed by a bullet train doing 125mph.
Fun Fact: Did you know I-15 across eastern California is officially called "The Mojave Freeway"??? I had no idea, but I saw two signs indicating it as such. Who knew? Is that new? I never noticed it before.
While I glided along with the distronic set at 82mph through 200 miles of ridiculously ignored 70mph zone, being passed routinely by speed demons doing 85+, I still had plenty of time to stare at that giant empty I-15 median and the surrounding moonscape of desert. This project needs to happen, there's just so much possibility with that stretch of I-15 between the Cajon Pass and the Rose Parkway interchange that it would be stupid not to.
And it would be fun to see the speed demons doing 90mph get passed by a bullet train doing 125mph.
Fun Fact: Did you know I-15 across eastern California is officially called "The Mojave Freeway"??? I had no idea, but I saw two signs indicating it as such. Who knew? Is that new? I never noticed it before.
Bumping this thread with an update, as Florida's Brightline railroad company continues to move forward quickly with their plans for a high speed Brightline West from Las Vegas to SoCal.
I'm driving I-15 south to San Diego later in April, so I'm going to look forward to seeing if the Brightline crews are still out surveying their route then.
www.reviewjournal.com
I'm driving I-15 south to San Diego later in April, so I'm going to look forward to seeing if the Brightline crews are still out surveying their route then.
Preliminary work begins along I-15 for LV-to-LA rail project
Early work tied to the Brightline West high-speed rail project suggests the long-talked-about project could finally come to fruition.
www.reviewjournal.com