Unfortunately, it seems that only your facts are the ones that matter....
And I'm not sure what the PS4 or TV comment was about, but I suppose it harkens back to the iPhone ones from earlier....
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Workers want pay boost
- Thread starter Figaro928
- Start date
And I'm not sure what the PS4 or TV comment was about, but I suppose it harkens back to the iPhone ones from earlier....
slappy magoo
Well-Known Member
After you raise the first and last month's deposit you need for a new apartment. And the moving van unless you sell most of what you own. And a little money so you can spend a few weeks in your brave new world job hunting without starving unless you take the very first thing that comes along that may make it harder to look for meaningful employment anywhere else. Sure, life is a highway I want to ride it all night long. Onward to adventure and ramen noodles for everybody@
SherlockWayne
Active Member
Unfortunately, I guess my other mistake was not being clairvoyant. When I started my field of study, there actually was a market for folks with my expertise. However, right upon graduation (2008), the economy tanked and the market for folks with architecture degrees dried up. Also, i do make more than minimum wage, which I said.
I think what bothers me is that, in the past, you could gain knowledge, but then become an expert through experience at work. Now there's so many unemployed professionals with years of experience that companies no longer need to invest time or money into training the next generation. This means you either live off the government while hoping to find something worth your education, or you take what pays the bills. Either way, getting started with a crippling debt load (which I'd had hoped to avoid by going to an in-state school) is a pretty tricky way to climb the ladder. My job cannot be done by anyone off the street, but it is paid as such, with the employer knowing full well that there are no alternative options out there. I'm always looking for the next step, but everyone is looking for folks with many more years of experience than I can hope to gain. I firmly believe businesses love the recession. They can always use the specter of unemployment and destitution to keep wages low, whilst grotesquely overpaying the people at the top.
flynnibus
Premium Member
But the guy will not infinitely get better nor will his responsibilities or how much value he can return. Eventually a janitor, no matter how good, is only worth so much. That's why we have pay ranges.
Why should you reward people for complacency? If the person actually wants to develop and earn more.. they should DO more and return more value for the company... then they will be compensated for that value.
Yes, there is value in experience and solid employees vs a untested new hire... but we're talking entry level jobs that require little skill. Turnover is acceptable. You get rid of those that don't work, and try to develop those that do. Development includes career GROWTH in abilities and responsibilities. From that you will get growth in compensation... not 'I've been doing your job for 10 years now, give me a pay raise'
WDW1974
Well-Known Member
My last words here are two stories ... the first shows that Amazon is just like Disney, just like Apple when it comes to taking care if workers. The second shows there are some traces of humanity left and at one of the best places in Fort Lauderdale to have ice cream and how a Mom and Pop location can apparently afford to do what WDW 'could... I mean wouldn't'.'
http://www.salon.com/2014/02/23/wor...t_history_of_ruthlessly_intimidating_workers/
http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/20...0140212_1_federal-minimum-jaxson-minimum-wage
http://www.salon.com/2014/02/23/wor...t_history_of_ruthlessly_intimidating_workers/
http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/20...0140212_1_federal-minimum-jaxson-minimum-wage
WDW1974
Well-Known Member
You really are digging it deep for yourself ... you should go play some pinball or take the girls for a spin with your credit cards to do some upper middle class spending.
flynnibus
Premium Member
You got your last month's rent from your last place...and your security deposit.
Sell what you own and buy new stuff from the thrift store on the other side if you can't afford to move it
Give up buying that new toy, or save for a few months, or get a loan from your parents
But sitting on your rear going 'Im stuck' is only going to prove one thing.. you are stuck.
flynnibus
Premium Member
No, they are just facts that prove the absolutes wrong. There is plenty of work out there.. this is well established. The problem is aligning the work people are willing to do at what wage with what jobs are out there. and when we are talking Disney's minimum wage levels... it makes the field pretty wide open to find alternate work.
Simple.. people have their priorities.. and making sacrifices to make life changes normally isn't one of them. They'd rather sit around and complain about what they have, vs doing something about it.
rob0519
Well-Known Member
The business community has changed. I can tell you that today, most companys set a ceiling on what a particular function is worth, mailroom attendant, janitor, project manager, etc. If you stay in the same position for those 30 years, chances are good with even 2-3% raies you will hit that ceiling much, much sooner. If you it the ceiling at year 15, you may work the next 15 years with only a minor adjustment as the ceiling is periodically adjusted. Trust me, I've had people who worked for me in this situation and I am now myself, in this situation.
slappy magoo
Well-Known Member
But the pay ranges could - and I'd argue should - be always expanding to accommodate cost of living increases. Because if a "complacent" guy who actually enjoys his job and does it well only gets a 2% raise annually while COL increases at 4%, eventually, you're right, he won't be able to afford that job anymore. But chances are no one else will be able to afford to work that job either, except the hungry young fella desperate to prove he's a good worker who will become disillusioned when he realizes he'll never make a living doing this, and get another job, so you're forever turning over that job, or paying a decent wage to attract good workers, not just "skilled" workers but "good" workers who you know will show up, never be on a bender, never be late, and always work hard. In which case, heck with it, keep paying the good guy in the first place.
No, it makes more sense to forever have high turnover rates and low morale. That's good for business.
slappy magoo
Well-Known Member
Not necessarily. And the time you spend in court trying to get it back, arguing that you've done is time you're not moving to your new city, nor are you doing it with money you desperately need, even if you're representing yourself in small claims court and not paying a lawyer.
Sure, everyone loves to get rid of everything they own in a weekend for whatever they can get and then hope they can get goods of comparable quality at Goodwill. And nothing says "Hire me, I'm a good worker" like the mothball-scented aroma of a thrift store suit you picked up for your job interview.
"Get a loan from your parents." You're quoting Mitt Romney now? Assuming people who need help have people who CAN help?
"Save for a few months..." working that job that doesn't pay you enough to live on in the first place.
Thanks, you're a big help for a hypothetical fella in a jam. Reminds me of Craig T. Nelson being interviewed on Glenn Beck: "Look, I was a struggling actor...I got unemployment, I was on food stamps...no one ever gave ME anything." Uh....huhwhahuh?
flynnibus
Premium Member
Then that simply is a matter of too much supply driving down the value of your work. Job markets are not static nor perpetual.
When I was in school my aspiration was to do hardware design... by the time I finished school the market for hardware jobs was impossible to break into... everything was now being done in software via programmable hardware killing the demand for hardware engineers. So instead of holding out hoping to get that hardware job... I took a job in another field.
Of all my college circle of friends... I only know of one that actually works in the field they studied for. The same type of 'what I studied is not available..' was happening 20 years ago too.
People either adapt.. or get left behind. Yes, now the market is even harder given the macro environment, but the same holds true... you must adapt.
flynnibus
Premium Member
So wait.. now no one ever gets their money from their landlord??.. so this is justification to just sit tight? and you throw the hyperboyle label at me?
Who are wearing suits for a $10/hr non-skill labor job? Does your old 'suit' not fit in a car that you needed a moving van to move it? Come on.. you're just making excuses now. I'm typing this sitting at a desk I bought in the goodwill store 22 years ago.... I can assure you the fact that my OLD desk or couch didn't fit in my car was not reason to not move and the replacement never kept me back from getting a job.
When you can't take stuff with you... sell it. OMG... heaven forbid anyone here ever experience what military families go through.
We're talking hundreds of dollars.. not tens of thousands. You act like someone needed to win the lotto to be able to afford to pick up and move. Heaven forbid someone afford a rental van.. or save up by skipping that CM discount night at Splitsville... or that starbucks.
Matt_Black
Well-Known Member
I'm just going to throw this quote from P.T. Barnum here, as it sums up my feelings on the subject pretty well.
"The desire for wealth is nearly universal, and none can say it is not laudable, provided the possessor of it accepts its responsibilities, and uses it as a friend to humanity."
"The desire for wealth is nearly universal, and none can say it is not laudable, provided the possessor of it accepts its responsibilities, and uses it as a friend to humanity."
SherlockWayne
Active Member
You've hit the nail on the head of exactly the trouble I ran and am still running into! Congrats! See, I realized right away that the architecture market was poor, so I opened myself up to any possibility. The problem, as I've stated previously is that a business has no reason to hire someone without the background they're looking for. Learning how to design spaces doesn't come in handy for jobs that don't involve designing spaces. Now, in the good ole days transferable skills came in handy, just take a look at the backstories of the best imagineers, but now, for every job that's out there, it seems like someone has exactly what is needed. Job descriptions are so fine tuned. I'm a great learner, give me three weeks, and I'll be training the trainers, but that matters little without the experience or paperwork to back it up. I'm always open to new possibilities, and have tried a whole plethora of new experiences with the hope of parlaying them into a promising career. At this point, all have ended up with a big black hole, but I don't give up. I just resent the idea that labor of any kind is not worth the right to live. If someone comes home hurting, full of sweat and stress, but still musters up to go back the next day, they deserve a living wage. I find it oddly poetic that the harshest jobs that no one wants to do are paid the worst. If anything, it should be the other way around. I think a person willing to clean a disgusting WDW bathroom or guest room deserves a lot more pay than an exec who gets to sit in a cushy office wearing the best clothes and driving the best car money (or their employer) can buy.
Animaniac93-98
Well-Known Member
I'm going to cut @flynnibus some slack and cite the issue with blue collar work in the US right now that comes from individuals spending thousands to earn a degree on an esoteric or low demand subject, like art history, because they've been told (by a school system chasing profits) becoming an electrician is so terrible.
That is a real problem, as are all related to underemployment which never gets enough coverage in the US because a basic employment/unemployment statistic never describes it.
But it's also true that just up and moving somewhere else, or obtaining alternate education, is easier said then done. Especially with little to no savings, or bank credit, or health insurance, or when you're trying to raise a kid etc.
As usual, the truth lies somewhere inbetween. People have their own decisions to make, but they don't have infinate resources (time, money, etc) to follow through with them.
That is a real problem, as are all related to underemployment which never gets enough coverage in the US because a basic employment/unemployment statistic never describes it.
But it's also true that just up and moving somewhere else, or obtaining alternate education, is easier said then done. Especially with little to no savings, or bank credit, or health insurance, or when you're trying to raise a kid etc.
As usual, the truth lies somewhere inbetween. People have their own decisions to make, but they don't have infinate resources (time, money, etc) to follow through with them.
flynnibus
Premium Member
and in general they do. The problem is your janitor's NEEDS are not tied to simple market COLA. If the job you hired into as an 18yr old no skill labor position... you can afford to live on XYZ dollars because of where you are in your life. Let's say COLA adjustments are simply 2% a year to keep things basic. As the 18yr old grows up, gets married, has kids, needs a bigger living space, sends kids to school, activities, etc.... his life EXPENSES do not grow at the same COLA adjustment the entire market is seeing.
His expenses change and grow as his position in life grows. A business should not have to start paying more for a job role because one of their employees outside of work he and his wife had 2 more kids.
Turnover is not something 'evil'. Turnover is necessary for employees to grow as well. I do want 'good workers', but I take those good workers and PROMOTE them into other jobs that will give me better return for their skills as the employee grows. and in turn their compensation grows. Bad hires get fired... good hires do their time and grow and move on up. That's why they are called 'entry level jobs' ..
If an employee flatlines - they should not be surprised when their compensation flatlines as well.
Having to hire in new people is not a bad thing. It brings new faces, new entropy, new energy. Not every job is a 'lifer' job... many jobs people can't do long term.. or grow bored of.. or outgrow. Those positions should not start demanding 2-3x their going rate just because some employees are happy to just tread water and do nothing more with their lives than sit right here in this job forever.
slappy magoo
Well-Known Member
Now I speak from experience. Yes, it happens. It also happens that sometimes, if you have a roommate or two or three, you're only paying half or a third or a quarter of the deposit, so THAT'S what you get back, and it's not enough for a whole deposit in a new city where you know nobody.
Fine, I'll concede that a suit is light in the luggage but why are you assuming anyone moving into a new city is looking for a non-skilled labor job? Just because we've been taking quite a bit about non-skilled jobs, that doesn't mean someone moving into a new city doesn't have a college degree and is looking for something a little more professional than manual labor. Or at least, is looking for a job in sales where you have to be a tad more presentable. Nonetheless if all you're taking with you is the clothes on your back or what fits in a suitcase or hobo's bindlestiff, it's stressful to not only find yourself cut off from friends or family but having to replace every piece of stuff you once owned. But hey, ADVENTURE!
Have a weekend fire sale! Sell your couch for 10 bucks! Your TV for $20! It's the American thing to do!
We've been talking about people who can't survive on what they're getting paid. Yet they should save up ONLY hundreds of dollars to move into a city with no job prospects, survive on what they've somehow saved until they find work, or take the first job that comes along no matter how low it pays. Again, I'm sure some people thrive doing this. I'd also wager that you can find people who didn't thrive and regretted that decision. But hey, CAN-DO SPIRIT!
slappy magoo
Well-Known Member
Clearly, no employer HAS to do anything. But if you value people who work their hardest, you tend to want to keep them around unless you're an incredibly short-sighted Randian who assumes everyone is chattle who can be easily replaced in which case please don't invite me to your parties so I don't have to make up a reason to not attend.
But high turnover rate is indicative of faulty management, as indicated by Wal-Mart which is still making profits, but not like they were making a few years ago, because they worked under the assumption that annybody could be replaced, then operated under the assumption that they could do more with less, and now many stores are so understaffed, they can't keep shelves stocked, produce is going bad and people who thought they could get whatever they wanted in one shop are now going elsewhere. Meanwhile many of their employees "entry level positions" are so low, and remain low for years if they continue, they are eligible for government assistance, which brings us back to one of the original topics of the thread, if you pay people so poorly that they can't afford to live and the taxpayer has to help them out on top of helping out people who aren't working, then you stink at capitalism.
People must be singing Zip A Dee Do Dah all day in your office with that sunny optimism.