Wookies, & Rebels, & Droids... OH WHY?! The Anti-SWL in Disneyland Thread

[flynnibus]

It's stood the test of time for every generation since 1955.

Heck, Disneyland hasn't had a major change since 1995- and it only got more popular in that time. That's a few generations worth of people.

And people thought star tours and Indy was disney driving off the cliff by having these outside subjects and producers involved in the parks and it was end of days for dl's future.

And here we are 20+ years later and both are some of the most popular attractions and both anchors of their lands.

 

[SuddenStorm]

I guess you didn't understand my 'moth into the flame' comment because that's exactly what I said. But your examples are not about pulling you across lands while deep in another. So again, how do these examples help your theory that the icons should be viewable across the lands and isolation is bad?



Guess you should be getting rid of Adventureland... town square... fantasyland and more.

I highly recommend John Hench's Designing Disney. He's got a whole chapter dedicated to Wienies. He often states that they're intended to draw someone down a corridor- and each of my examples was given by him. I'm not making them up.

To your point- Town Square has views of the Castle, intending to draw you down Main Street. Fantasyland Has the Matterhorn, or deeper inside the land, Small World.

Of course, having a wienie isn't essential to Disneyland, and I'm not saying that every land has to have them. They certainly shouldn't get rid of a land that's been proven for 60 years because it works for a variety of other reasons.

I'm trying to make the point that in the past, Imagineering has used the technique to help guide crowd flow and create enticing views of the park. Every indication is that Galaxy's Edge hasn't utilized this, if TP2000's post showing how darn hard it is to see any hint of that land unless you're at a few vantage points. Disney's been marketing an immersive experience unlike any other- a pseudo park within a park. I don't think this extreme isolation is the right approach. It wasn't even my main point, and certainly isn't the hill I'm gonna choose to die on.

Honestly- I'm not even sure what point you're trying to make. You seem to be disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing. You disagree with John Hench's wienie examples, or my thoughts on their importance in the park, which is great. We're discussing observations and opinions, not rules set in stone.

I don't think Galaxy's Edge fits inside Disneyland, and I've been trying to figure out why it doesn't beyond simply saying "It has too much Star Wars". Most issues I've brought up aren't major, or dealbreakers. They're things I think Imagineering could have done to strengthen the land.

 

[SuddenStorm]

And people thought star tours and Indy was disney driving off the cliff by having these outside subjects and producers involved in the parks and it was end of days for dl's future.

And here we are 20+ years later and both are some of the most popular attractions and both anchors of their lands.

I've said it before, I have no issue with Star Wars at Disneyland. It's pure Americana. Indiana Jones Adventure design and execution was done beautifully, and it fits amazingly well in Adventureland. Star Tours less so if we stick to it's original intent, but it's not horrifically bad.

It's the unprecedented amount of Land Star Wars is getting- 14 acres is a huge chunk of land in a park where land is a rare commodity- as well as the creative choices and execution I have an issue with.

 

[TROR]

And people thought star tours and Indy was disney driving off the cliff by having these outside subjects and producers involved in the parks and it was end of days for dl's future.

And here we are 20+ years later and both are some of the most popular attractions and both anchors of their lands.

Did anyone actually think this? Also new Star Tours is garbage so they were right.

 

[DanielBB8]

Of course, having a wienie isn't essential to Disneyland, and I'm not saying that every land has to have them. They certainly shouldn't get rid of a land that's been proven for 60 years because it works for a variety of other reasons.

I'm trying to make the point that in the past, Imagineering has used the technique to help guide crowd flow and create enticing views of the park. Every indication is that Galaxy's Edge hasn't utilized this, if TP2000's post showing how darn hard it is to see any hint of that land unless you're at a few vantage points. Disney's been marketing an immersive experience unlike any other- a pseudo park within a park. I don't think this extreme isolation is the right approach...

A weenie attracts you to AN Attraction in a land. Star Wars Land is the attraction. It’s not like the weenie’s are entirely avoided because the Millennium Falcon is heavily advertised as a prop in the attraction. It can’t be seen from far away. You have to wait in line to see it. At this point, the Star Wars mountain range is clearly visible from outside Disneyland and from certain angles in Frontierland. It’s no secret. Any attempt at shielding it is merely cosmetic and not absolute. An immersive attraction reveals itself slowly. I just don’t think this focus on weenies is what every land needs in Disneyland.

The temple in Indiana Jones Adventure is not visible in the land. You’ll have to wait in line to see it.

Did anyone actually think this? Also new Star Tours is garbage so they were right.

This comment is contradictory and revealing.

 

[Californian Elitist]

Did anyone actually think this? Also new Star Tours is garbage so they were right.

It really is garbage. The first version of it was better.

 

[flynnibus]

I've said it before, I have no issue with Star Wars at Disneyland. It's pure Americana. Indiana Jones Adventure design and execution was done beautifully, and it fits amazingly well in Adventureland. Star Tours less so if we stick to it's original intent, but it's not horrifically bad.

It's the unprecedented amount of Land Star Wars is getting- 14 acres is a huge chunk of land in a park where land is a rare commodity- as well as the creative choices and execution I have an issue with.

If it was a space concern... you should have been begging to kill off jungle cruise, festival, or the roa for ages. The land dedicated to Star Wars isn't displacing other stuff (minus roa) and is driving expansion that hasn't happened otherwise.

Same could be said for the Nemo/autopia plot.

People Moan about the space... but it wasn't going to be anything else and meanwhile the park has aweful waste other places. Its not a Star Wars point...

 

[flynnibus]

Did anyone actually think this?

Yes, in the era before disney was a conglomerate of all kinds of brands... it was extremely controversial... mix this with the whole captain eo "most expensive film [per minute] ever..." stuff going on. It was incredibly radical departure... especially since Disneyland had been pretty stagnant through the 70s.

 

[flynnibus]

I highly recommend John Hench's Designing Disney. He's got a whole chapter dedicated to Wienies. He often states that they're intended to draw someone down a corridor- and each of my examples was given by him. I'm not making them up.

Down a corridor... like.... a moth into a flame.

I have read the book... and every other significant book on the topic. I have half a bookcase of just disney history books. I'm not disagreeing with Hench or the quotes; you are simply misapplying them to support your belief.

There will be visual queues in the land pulling people towards things.

To your point- Town Square has views of the Castle, intending to draw you down Main Street. Fantasyland Has the Matterhorn, or deeper inside the land, Small World.

Small world is hidden until you are on the path heading directly towards it due to the raised storybook area and the bends in the paths from the motorboat area. I mentioned town square specifically because it's only when you are in the center is the hub viewable.... and nothing else. To again point how this need to see these other landmarks around is a falsehood. They use a specific one or two elements to draw you down that corridor. You aren't seeing a smorgasbord of things to pick from... or see everything. Its a focused view to entice. The spires will be that for swge from the outside... and inside there will be key architectures and props to pull people to key landmarks and through.

I'm trying to make the point that in the past, Imagineering has used the technique to help guide crowd flow and create enticing views of the park. Every indication is that Galaxy's Edge hasn't utilized this, if TP2000's post showing how darn hard it is to see any hint of that land unless you're at a few vantage points.

Ok, go on the record. What views or lack of are you specifically worried about? You keep floating back and forth from worries about across the park... then try to support it with cites about views inside the land... you're all over the place.

Honestly- I'm not even sure what point you're trying to make. You seem to be disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing.

The way you discredit a belief is by taking down the cites that belief is based on or used to support itself. I can't just say you are right or wrong... but I can debunk the things you use to support your belief.

I don't think Galaxy's Edge fits inside Disneyland, and I've been trying to figure out why it doesn't beyond simply saying "It has too much Star Wars".

Its been pretty obvious that you made a conclusion... then were trying to work your way backwards to find reasons why. And in doing so, you have misapplied concepts to make up guidance that supports your belief.

Its one thing to seek to explain why... but when you do that you cant dispose your analysis to only support your chosen outcome. That's the difference between testing a theory and simply using blinders.

 

[DanielBB8]

Ok, go on the record. What views or lack of are you specifically worried about? You keep floating back and forth from worries about across the park... then try to support it with cites about views inside the land... you're all over the place.

He is all over the place. He wants a weenie because “I'm just stating examples of how they've done things in the past and why I think the Galaxy's Edge approach might not be the best one in the context of Disneyland proper.” He says it’s “unprecedented”; however, upon closer scrutiny, other Disneyland parks have make compromises or exceptions all the time. Aside from constantly citing the weenie concept, no other approaches to theme park design is presented. He only says GE is bad because NOT WEENIE.

The biggest ride in Adventureland is Indiana Jones Adventure and it doesn’t have a weenie. The temple is hidden in the queue line.

 

[righttrack]

The lack of creativity that is alluded to, both in the original post and others is the symptom of Hollywood in general. Think about all of the big movies that come out in one year. Now name the ones that a.) aren't a sequel b.) aren't based on a comic book c.) aren't based on a video game d.) aren't based on a book e.) aren't a reboot. Now the list got a lot shorter. So too, is creative works in general. We get new mediums and then we see the same old stuff in those new forms of media.

When Disneyland was created in the 50s, Disney wasn't the film juggernaut nor the acquisition junkie it is now. Times change, companies change, people change. Star Wars is a huge universe with tons of characters, enough to fill up all of the parks and resorts. I think they are dedicating a fairly small space to it, given it's size. That said, I'm concerned as a major SW fan that they don't overuse it too much. We've already seen evidence of that in the recent films (Marvel too). They must be good custodians of all of their properties and trickle things out proportionately. I hope in 2019 they learn this.

 

[flynnibus]

He is all over the place. He wants a weenie because “I'm just stating examples of how they've done things in the past and why I think the Galaxy's Edge approach might not be the best one in the context of Disneyland proper.” He says it’s “unprecedented”; however, upon closer scrutiny, other Disneyland parks have make compromises or exceptions all the time. Aside from constantly citing the weenie concept, no other approaches to theme park design is presented. He only says GE is bad because NOT WEENIE.

The biggest ride in Adventureland is Indiana Jones Adventure and it doesn’t have a weenie. The temple is hidden in the queue line.

Yeah, but weenie inside the land or not? Which is he worked up about?

There is lots of quite striking architecture that will stand out in that way... things like the ship on the roof, etc

We are not seeing how things at ground level yet... that should be amazballs

 

[SuddenStorm]

Yeah, but weenie inside the land or not? Which is he worked up about?

There is lots of quite striking architecture that will stand out in that way... things like the ship on the roof, etc

We are not seeing how things at ground level yet... that should be amazballs

My initial mention of wienies was in response to this comment:

I want to go to Disneyland and see the Matterhorn from just about anywhere or the train going around the berm. I want to see cast member name tags and I'm not concerned with Visa logos. The lengths they're going to make this a renaissance fair and not a theme park are ridiculous.

From there, you blew it way out of proportion and took us off on a ridiculous path that has virtually nothing to do with what started the discussion.

It's no secret that Disney is doing everything they can to isolate this land from the rest of the park, both in storytelling and visual intrusion. This is a fact, and can't be downplayed. It's a part of all their marketing, that "Batuu" will be the most immersive experience ever. This extreme isolation doesn't fit inside Disneyland proper (in my opinion- you disagree, and that's fine. There's a reason I'm posting all this in the anti thread). That's all I meant, nothing more. I've never claimed that every land inside Disneyland let's you see every major attraction, or that everything should be visible from everywhere, or whatever. I was simply agreeing with TROR's comment and inserting some of my own thoughts. You've twisted and misinterpreted my comments in an attempt to skew the discussion into something ridiculous, and frankly, it's getting a bit tiring trying to respond in a civil manner instead of simply responding that your thoughts are "bogus" or that you've "twisted Disneyland history into something of your own creation".

 

[SuddenStorm]

other Disneyland parks have make compromises or exceptions all the time. Aside from constantly citing the weenie concept, no other approaches to theme park design is presented. He only says GE is bad because NOT WEENIE.

The biggest ride in Adventureland is Indiana Jones Adventure and it doesn’t have a weenie. The temple is hidden in the queue line.

I've expressed many reasons why I'm not a fan of the project over the last two years on this forum, and many times over the last few weeks. My brief mention of a wienie was a small part in a response to a comment that got blown way out of proportion. The fact you can't see any hint of the rest of DIsneyland from inside the land, or that 99% of Disneyland can't see any hint of Galaxy's Edge is hardly the biggest issue with the project.

Worth mentioning- Disneyland Park isn't "other Disneyland parks". It's the original- and many consider it to be the best. Tony Baxter has often stated that he gives himself different mental approaches when designing for each park- Disneyland is charming so it's stuff should be somewhat charming, Florida Spectacular, Paris Beautiful, SHanghai unique- etc. This has been demonstrated with the different castles, the different aesthetics for the Mansion, Big Thunder, Splash Mountain, Fantasyland, etc.

I'd argue that this concept could be expanded beyond visual design into saying that just because some Magic Kingdom style parks do things a certain way, doesn't mean others should. I guess what I'm saying is who cares what other Castle parks have done? When discussing Disneyland, it should be determined what works best inside Disneyland, not Florida, Paris, China.

 

[flynnibus]

My initial mention of wienies was in response to this comment:

And the Matterhorn is not used as a weenie design element in the traditional sense.

And not having its visual intrusion everywhere is not a negative... it's more akin to how the parks are typically designed. The Matterhorn is an anomaly and to hate because its visual dominance is not replicated is just foolish.

The whole weenie justification doesn't even fit and is a case of seeing similar things and just assuming they are the same - but they are not

 

[NateD1226]

I’m not reading all 76 pages so i’m just going to throw my 2 cents in:

Star Wars and Marvel need to be banned from all Disney Parks.

 

[DanielBB8]

The fact you can't see any hint of the rest of DIsneyland from inside the land, or that 99% of Disneyland can't see any hint of Galaxy's Edge is hardly the biggest issue with the project.

When discussing Disneyland, it should be determined what works best inside Disneyland, not Florida, Paris, China.

But its not even an issue at all. GE’s approach in Disneyland is appropriate for the park.

Galaxy Edge was first designed for Disneyland before it was moved to Disney Hollywood Studios largely unchanged.

 

[Curious Constance]

I’m not reading all 76 pages so i’m just going to throw my 2 cents in:

Star Wars and Marvel need to be banned from all Disney Parks.

I'd take this a step further and expand this list to include everything and anything that Bob Iger thinks people are just dying to experience. Like visiting Arendelle with Elsa and Anna! *gag*

 

[NateD1226]

I'd take this a step further and expand this list to include everything and anything that Bob Iger thinks people are just dying to experience. Like visiting Arendelle with Elsa and Anna! *gag*

Oh trust me, I could write a whole essay about this

 

[DanielBB8]

I'd take this a step further and expand this list to include everything and anything that Bob Iger thinks people are just dying to experience. Like visiting Arendelle with Elsa and Anna! *gag*

There’s already a thread that does this.
https://forums.wdwmagic.com/threads/interview-with-bob-iger-about-the-parks.952320/