George Lucas on a Bench
Well-Known Member
So is Star Wars.
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Wookies, & Rebels, & Droids... OH WHY?! The Anti-SWL in Disneyland Thread
- Thread starter Californian Elitist
- Start date
TROR
Well-Known Member
I agree enough.
George Lucas on a Bench
Well-Known Member
It simply adds to the awkward slapped together charm of DL. For true consistency, Star Wars Land shouldn't even have any sort of barrier like the King Kong wall they've built. It should be built right next to existing areas with clear visibility from thematically unrelated areas and barely any transition.
I agree. Instead of the stone wall separating Star Wars Land and Frontierland, you ought to see both sides unimpeded. Or have the train go completely around the new perimeter of the park. A bunch of tunnels with some peek windows like Splash Mountain is the only thing you’ll get. This would mean the train won’t be reopened for the entirety of the construction, nearly 5 years. It will cost a bundle and may compromise the design of the attractions. But fans want what they want.
SuddenStorm
Well-Known Member
To build off this, there's no precedent for this newfound desire to isolate the land on the part of the Imagineers when discussing Disneyland proper. Visual intrusions have long been a part of Disneyland and they're very intentional. Every Imagineer that designed the park will tell you the concept of a weenie (as I'm sure you all know), and how they utilized this strategy frequently when designing the park. The Mark Twain for Frontierland, Splash Mountain, the old Moonliner and later the Rocket Jets. The Castle is the most famous example.
The visual instrusions don't irritate or turn off the guest. They don't take us out of the experience. They're exciting and essential to what Disneyland is.
There's no precedent inside Disneyland for each land to be isolated, or for the railroad to not be seen since it wouldn't fit the theme of the land. Designing the rockwork for Batuu to look like it's an extension of the ROA might be great for someone who doesn't want the land, but there's no precedent for it before in Disneyland. If we look at the past, there should be some sort of visual draw to get guests to wander there out of curiosity. There should also be visuals of something outside the land from within, for the same reason.
Personally, I have no issue with Star Wars inside Disneyland. It's pure Americana, and is to kids today what the old west was to kids in the '50s. I just have issues with the execution and creative choices being made for Batuu. If GE was being designed to better act like a Disneyland land, I'd be far more content.
SuddenStorm
Well-Known Member
Seeing the train inside Splash Mountain doesn't take me out of the experience, or seeing it inside Critter Country. Having a station in Tomorrowland doesn't take me out of the spirit of the land.
I don't think the style of Disneyland train would be fit for the story and context of Indiana Jones Adventure, but early iterations and plans for the ride included the railroad. Obviously it was cut for budget reasons, but I imagine if the Imagineers of the time were fine with doing it, then it isn't a problem.
Even if the railroad is incorporated into an attraction, 9 times out of 10 the guests riding it don't actually see the train go through. And when they do, it elevates the experience since it's something exciting and rare.
Star Wars is the precedent. It is likely the first and the last for Disneyland due to lack of space. I’m wondering why creating this new precedent requires another precedent before it. It’s like the argument that since there’s no accidents, there’s no need for new safety rails on the rooftops. So we wait for someone to fall off the roof. (A contract maintenance worker fell off Space Mountain roof for your information.) They lead, Disney follows, like with Harry Potter.
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George Lucas on a Bench
Well-Known Member
I like seeing transports traveling through areas and attractions and also riding through on the transports. It's classic Disney. Other examples include the Peoplemovers (I think it's awesome it went through DL's Star Tours bay and had a static storm trooper mannequin), the gondolas (Which were major visual intrusions and let you see all kinds of backstage stuff, but were wonderful experiences and the paths they traversed feel bare without the buckets and the giant towers that once supported) the Monorails through EPCOT and DLR, where you would think a futuristic vehicle shouldn't mesh with Fantasyland and it's like an alternate universe 1930s(?) bullet train over the new period DCA entrance, and the vessels in Frontierland/NOS/Liberty land etc.
BrianLo
Well-Known Member
I need to reiterate that the train did not run through Frontierland until very recently and the train can be seen from inside Batuu (briefly) at the Eastern flanks. However its brief appearance still outranks Adventureland. So this whole discussion remains a little nonsensical.
Finally, the peaks are very visible as a weenie. Sure they'll pull a Grizzly Peak in 10 years, but they are easily visible today.
Finally, the peaks are very visible as a weenie. Sure they'll pull a Grizzly Peak in 10 years, but they are easily visible today.
Just be to consistently inconsistent, they’re complaining about the Batuu peaks too.
flynnibus
Premium Member
Sorry - this artificial constraint about being the outside berm was blown out decades ago with Toontown and all the other tricks the designers have done to try to keep the railway intact. Elements have been going outside the railroad from the beginning.. holidayland... the monorail.. and more.
This is classic "we see something.... so lets make up some rule that says this behavior must be observed all the time" - and in this case it doesn't even hold true to what the park has been doing for 40+ years.
SuddenStorm
Well-Known Member
I'm not sure what you mean. The train has been a part of Frontierland since the park opened. To start, the New Orleans Square/Frontierland Station that's there now was originally just a Frontierland Station, before Frontierland was chipped away at for New Orleans Square and Bear Country. The Rivers of America is considered a part of Frontierland, with the Island, Columbia, and Twain listed as attractions. You've always been able to get a great view of all of these from the train. Here's a 2014 ride through that should start right after Critter Country:
Looking at the concept art and having ridden the train a few times since the new route- it doesn't look like you'll be able to see anything there except more of the walkway between the two lands. The path veers right right after, and that entrance way isn't very wide. Of course, once the land is open we'll see for sure.
The peaks natural design when viewed outside the land from the rest of the park and their function as a backdrop for the ROA to me don't quite scream "hey, Star Wars is here, you better come see this!" unless the guest already knows. The rockwork looks far more alien below the sight line of the rest of the park, as seen from the flyover videos. But there is that space looking building that's barely visible, so point taken.
flynnibus
Premium Member
Again.. more just making stuff up.
The weenie is intended to draw you in... it's not about being visible everywhere else. What you say are 'very intentional' are actually "acceptable compromises". You've completely distorted the retelling of the use of the weenie and landmarks to be about 'visuals across the park' which is not what it was about ever.
More bogus stuff. The backs and sides of buildings have been masked to look like the boundaries all along. Buildings have been laid out so one side is one land, another is another all along.
The lands were built to TRANSITION between them and landmarks were used to draw people in/out of the hub design. No idea how you are distorting this to mean that lands aren't in isolation.
Ever notice most of NOS is visually isolated and sightlines highly constrained to just the riverfront? That TL goes through a CHUTE? that walls itself off from everywhere else (except for the Matterhorn).. that FL sees nothing but itself..
You've completely distorted the design of DL into something of your own creation.
SuddenStorm
Well-Known Member
Holidayland was separate admission from Disneyland (which is why it allowed boos), so it doesn't count when discussing Disneyland "lands". I don't think it was considered an official land even then.
In the case of Toontown, the Imagineers came up with that convoluted backstory of it always being there, and Walt building Disneyland next to it with permission of the toons, but it not being open to the public until the '90s. Not Disney's best writing, but it tried to justify it's existence both outside the berm, and as a part of Disneyland. Galaxy's Edge is doing neither, and is actively being designed to not function as a part of Disneyland but instead operate as a pseudo "park within a park".
The monorail is an attraction, not a land. Attractions taking the guest outside the berm is commonplace, Splash, Haunted Mansion, Pirates, Indy all do it. It was an attraction designed to showcase a potential option for public transit, and with the addition of the Disneyland Hotel station soon after it opened, functions even more so as transit vs entertainment. This is different than the Railroad/Grand Circle tour- which functions primarily as an attraction that provides teases of the various lands Disneyland has to offer and a transportation means second. Obviously, none of this is written as doctrine by Disney, it's just my mental explanation on why the monorail works, but Galaxy's Edge doesn't. Many disagree, and they're justified in doing so.
I am curious to learn what the "and more" consists of, since I can't think of any other examples off the top of my head. I'd be curious to learn more.
flynnibus
Premium Member
It was used as part of the park... artificially using the lands label to include/exclude stuff is just mental gymnastics. The early years of the park saw lots of radical change and experimentation... lots of temporary stuff, and lots of stuff that people today would just blow their lid over. How did we end up with situations like the Matternhorn? Simple... Walt don't care. He knew the gains would outweigh the cons and didn't need to stick to some rule book. It was a fantasy.. and he just rolled with it.
Why are you mixing in storytelling with operational models as if the are the same thing? When in Frontierland... neither the storytelling nor operationals model are pitching you about other lands on the otherside of the park.. the are pitching you Frontierland. Your obcession about this 'isolation' as something radically different is hyper analyzing things that have essentially always been done.
No, the railroad is not there to be a tease. It's there to be a train.. because Walt loved trains. The rest is about how to make it fit.
The 'and more..' comment was to reference that the park piercing the railroad loop has been done in many ways. As full on lands, as extensions, as guests actually knowing it... as guests not knowing it.. as the train feeling like its on the edge, and areas where you have no idea. The train has become 'the old city walls' of Disneyland, and while it represents a traditional border of the park - it is not some design criteria nor new thing to go beyond the tracks. Both in sight and out of sight of the guests.
George Lucas on a Bench
Well-Known Member
Has anyone ever figured out what land the River Bell restaurant is in? To this day, I have no idea if it's Adventure, New Orleans or Frontier. It could be all three.
George Lucas on a Bench
Well-Known Member
I don't see what riding a bobsled down a snowy mountain would ever have had to do with Tomorrowland, but then I don't know what the future seemed like to the extremely primitive and paranoid culture of the time.
SuddenStorm
Well-Known Member
I never claimed that a wienie needs to be visible everywhere else, you're intentionally misrepresenting what I'm saying to prove some arbitrary point (that I'm wrong and Star Wars Galaxy's edge fits perfectly inside Disneyland?).
The examples I listed as Wienies I listed are directly from John Hench's book Designing Disney. None of them were listed to be "acceptable compromises" by the Imagineering legend. I'll quote some passages here:
When mentioning visual intrusions in my comment, I wasn't talking about being able to see into Galaxy's Edge from the rest of the park- but more so the fact that once inside Galaxy's Edge, every effort has been made to make you forget the rest of the park, and the rest of the park will be blocked by the faux rockwork and buildings. Of course, part of this is due to the location, but I wonder if any earlier designs had the land a bit more open and accessible from Frontierland. Disneyland has been designed to make the guest want to traverse and explore the park and each of its lands, making progress through the park and discovering new things. Galaxy's Edge has been designed to make the guest want to traverse and explore only Galaxy's Edge..
You cut off my comment, leaving out the most important line. I'll restate it- If we look at the past, there should be some sort of visual draw to get guests to wander there out of curiosity. There should also be visuals of something outside the land from within, for the same reason. I know that this isn't always the case- Adventureland probably being the best example, along with the ever troublesome Toontown, but I think having outside visual draws from within each land helps tie the park together and creates a stronger theme park.
If the great John Hench is to be believed, the Matterhorn functions as a weenie for Tomorrowland.
Within Fantasyland, you can see Big Thunder Mountain Railroad. You can see Splash Mountain and the Haunted Mansion from as far as Frontierland.
Here's another Hench quote:
Each of these lands still has ample views of the rest of the park, and in the case of Frontierland/New Orleans Square/Critter Country, build off eachother thematically- they provide a natural progression from the wild frontier, to American South, to the bayous/backwoods of the south.
I'm not claiming any of this is some kind of official rule that the Imagineers must follow. I'm just stating examples of how they've done things in the past and why I think the Galaxy's Edge approach might not be the best one in the context of Disneyland proper. This isn't something that can be proven wrong, since it's one's opinion and interpretation of a park that combines the ideas and talents of hundreds of designers over the last 60 years.
I know there aren't overriding rules that govern the park's design, which is why exceptions can be given to every point I've tried to make. I'm just giving examples of stuff that I think has been done well and strengthened Disneyland, and expressing a desire for a similar approach to have been made for this new land.
Much of what's being discussed is my opinion, and attempting to use other opinions and interpretations to disprove an opinion is never a good approach. You make some excellent points that perhaps my opinion might not be the best one- but decrying my observations as "bogus" isn't at all a good way to have a conversation in the thread dedicated to not wanting Galaxy's Edge.
I'm very well aware of Disneyland's design and it's history, and try to back up my points with examples from within the park. I'm sharing my interpretation of things that have worked well in the past, things I like, and am trying to explain why I think they work well.
Disneyland is an inherently personal experience- things I think are an abomination are beloved by millions. I decry HMH as a bastardization of a classic, but it's more popular than the original when it comes around each year. I adore the old Fantasmic, but many prefer the new or wish the show had never existed. I wish the redhead auction hadn't changed, yet the new walk around character is popular and I've seen many people who adore the new version.
I'd argue that each of us has distorted the design of DL into something of our own creation- an excellent example is your excitement for the new land, and my wish that it never existed.