Wookies, & Rebels, & Droids... OH WHY?! The Anti-SWL in Disneyland Thread

[FerretAfros]

One important point when talking about crowds, and its been said before in other threads. TWDC doesn't set the capacity levels of the parks itself, the Anaheim fire marshal does. These levels are set by the total available usable space in the parks, that won't really change that much with SW:GE. Because with the two large buildings and other shops, etc., you won't have that much added usable space for people to go. The fact that ride capacity will have increased in DL has no bearing on that. Those are DL numbers and aren't part of the number of physical people allowed in the parks at any one time.

Also there have been rumors of complete AP block out (especially the lower tiers since it'll be summer anyways), for the first couple of months of SW:GE opening. So that will have a big impact in a good way as well.

Although the Fire Marshal does set the legal capacity for the park, it's exceedingly rare that Disney allows that many people in the park at a given time. The Fire Marshal capacity is based purely on the number of people who can safely evacuate in the amount of time that a structure is expected to burn, based on its materials and construction. Individual facilities (like restaurants or attractions) may near the FM capacity, but the park is usually capped at a much lower number than its legal limit

Instead, Disney's park capacities are based on guest satisfaction metrics and comfort levels. Disney's surveys have determined the number of "things" (attractions, entertainment, meet & greets, etc.) that a guest must experience to feel like they had a good experience; depending on the park, the exact number varies around 6-8 things per day. When the number dips below the park's goal, guest satisfaction levels drop dramatically. Knowing the hourly throughput of each facility, Disney knows how many "things" can be experienced during the course of the day, and is able to set the capacity accordingly. This is why park hours are shorter during the off-season and longer during peak periods; it's also why ride refurbishments are (typically) only done during the off-season, when demand is lower.

This theory is also part of the reason that MK struggles with maintenance. Attendance at that park has grown dramatically since the early 90's with only nominal capacity additions (sorry, but meet & greets will always have atrocious capacity), so they can't really afford to close things for any meaningful length of time. Instead, high-volume attractions like Pirates of the Caribbean and Space Mountain continue to limp along, with minimal downtime and poor maintenance years after their respective overhauls were neutered and accelerated in order to reopen them quickly.

Similarly, if Disney knows that a significant number of guests will be waiting in the walkways for things like parades, fireworks, or Fantasmic!, they are able to let more people into the park than during other times of the day. By occupying thousands of people in the walkways, the attractions suddenly have additional capacity that can be filled by more guests. It may be difficult to navigate, but guests are still able to hit that certain number of experiences and leave satisfied. In extreme examples like New Year's Eve, when people wait for hours for entertainment, the number of people in the park could easily be double the park's 'capacity' on an off-season day; Epcot is famous for being able to host over 100,000 guests on NYE, despite having typical daily attendance around 30,000

Yet in all of these situations, Disney's capacity is still lower than the Fire Marshal's. In an emergency, gates throughout the parks could be opened and guests could quickly be evacuated via backstage. The number of people who can safely evacuate an area is much higher than the number who can comfortably visit it at their leisure

This is all a long-winded way of saying that the additional attraction capacity from the Star Wars additions (though relatively modest compared to some of Disney's other efforts) will add to the park's overall capacity. Between the two attractions, it sounds like they could be able to handle about 3,500 guests per hour, which is a sizeable addition over the course of a 10-16 hour day.

 

[Disney Irish]

Although the Fire Marshal does set the legal capacity for the park, it's exceedingly rare that Disney allows that many people in the park at a given time. The Fire Marshal capacity is based purely on the number of people who can safely evacuate in the amount of time that a structure is expected to burn, based on its materials and construction. Individual facilities (like restaurants or attractions) may near the FM capacity, but the park is usually capped at a much lower number than its legal limit

Instead, Disney's park capacities are based on guest satisfaction metrics and comfort levels. Disney's surveys have determined the number of "things" (attractions, entertainment, meet & greets, etc.) that a guest must experience to feel like they had a good experience; depending on the park, the exact number varies around 6-8 things per day. When the number dips below the park's goal, guest satisfaction levels drop dramatically. Knowing the hourly throughput of each facility, Disney knows how many "things" can be experienced during the course of the day, and is able to set the capacity accordingly. This is why park hours are shorter during the off-season and longer during peak periods; it's also why ride refurbishments are (typically) only done during the off-season, when demand is lower.

This theory is also part of the reason that MK struggles with maintenance. Attendance at that park has grown dramatically since the early 90's with only nominal capacity additions (sorry, but meet & greets will always have atrocious capacity), so they can't really afford to close things for any meaningful length of time. Instead, high-volume attractions like Pirates of the Caribbean and Space Mountain continue to limp along, with minimal downtime and poor maintenance years after their respective overhauls were neutered and accelerated in order to reopen them quickly.

Similarly, if Disney knows that a significant number of guests will be waiting in the walkways for things like parades, fireworks, or Fantasmic!, they are able to let more people into the park than during other times of the day. By occupying thousands of people in the walkways, the attractions suddenly have additional capacity that can be filled by more guests. It may be difficult to navigate, but guests are still able to hit that certain number of experiences and leave satisfied. In extreme examples like New Year's Eve, when people wait for hours for entertainment, the number of people in the park could easily be double the park's 'capacity' on an off-season day; Epcot is famous for being able to host over 100,000 guests on NYE, despite having typical daily attendance around 30,000

Yet in all of these situations, Disney's capacity is still lower than the Fire Marshal's. In an emergency, gates throughout the parks could be opened and guests could quickly be evacuated via backstage. The number of people who can safely evacuate an area is much higher than the number who can comfortably visit it at their leisure

This is all a long-winded way of saying that the additional attraction capacity from the Star Wars additions (though relatively modest compared to some of Disney's other efforts) will add to the park's overall capacity. Between the two attractions, it sounds like they could be able to handle about 3,500 guests per hour, which is a sizeable addition over the course of a 10-16 hour day.

I'm sorry but this is not the case for DLR. You may be correct for WDW with larger walkways and a higher over all park capacity. But DL itself has been known to shut the gates, especially recently, at the request of the fire marshal. For example in 2015 the infamous 24 hour event for the 60th anniversary. If you were around for that event, like I was, you would know that this is not some number lower than the fire marshal set limits. This was ~65k wall to wall people all in one location. Now these days are currently few and far between, but it does happen. Currently there are only a handful of times a year where it happens. Point is that some predict these same levels for SW:GE opening.

 

[TROR]

WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
THERE IS NO CROWD PROBLEM AT DISNEYLAND

 

[mickEblu]

Although the Fire Marshal does set the legal capacity for the park, it's exceedingly rare that Disney allows that many people in the park at a given time. The Fire Marshal capacity is based purely on the number of people who can safely evacuate in the amount of time that a structure is expected to burn, based on its materials and construction. Individual facilities (like restaurants or attractions) may near the FM capacity, but the park is usually capped at a much lower number than its legal limit

Instead, Disney's park capacities are based on guest satisfaction metrics and comfort levels. Disney's surveys have determined the number of "things" (attractions, entertainment, meet & greets, etc.) that a guest must experience to feel like they had a good experience; depending on the park, the exact number varies around 6-8 things per day. When the number dips below the park's goal, guest satisfaction levels drop dramatically. Knowing the hourly throughput of each facility, Disney knows how many "things" can be experienced during the course of the day, and is able to set the capacity accordingly. This is why park hours are shorter during the off-season and longer during peak periods; it's also why ride refurbishments are (typically) only done during the off-season, when demand is lower.

This theory is also part of the reason that MK struggles with maintenance. Attendance at that park has grown dramatically since the early 90's with only nominal capacity additions (sorry, but meet & greets will always have atrocious capacity), so they can't really afford to close things for any meaningful length of time. Instead, high-volume attractions like Pirates of the Caribbean and Space Mountain continue to limp along, with minimal downtime and poor maintenance years after their respective overhauls were neutered and accelerated in order to reopen them quickly.

Similarly, if Disney knows that a significant number of guests will be waiting in the walkways for things like parades, fireworks, or Fantasmic!, they are able to let more people into the park than during other times of the day. By occupying thousands of people in the walkways, the attractions suddenly have additional capacity that can be filled by more guests. It may be difficult to navigate, but guests are still able to hit that certain number of experiences and leave satisfied. In extreme examples like New Year's Eve, when people wait for hours for entertainment, the number of people in the park could easily be double the park's 'capacity' on an off-season day; Epcot is famous for being able to host over 100,000 guests on NYE, despite having typical daily attendance around 30,000

Yet in all of these situations, Disney's capacity is still lower than the Fire Marshal's. In an emergency, gates throughout the parks could be opened and guests could quickly be evacuated via backstage. The number of people who can safely evacuate an area is much higher than the number who can comfortably visit it at their leisure

This is all a long-winded way of saying that the additional attraction capacity from the Star Wars additions (though relatively modest compared to some of Disney's other efforts) will add to the park's overall capacity. Between the two attractions, it sounds like they could be able to handle about 3,500 guests per hour, which is a sizeable addition over the course of a 10-16 hour day.

3500 only for the rides. You also have the new acreage/ restaurants/ shops. I would imagine park capacity would go up by at least 10k.

 

[Disney Irish]

3500 only for the rides. You also have the new acreage/ restaurants/ shops. I would imagine park capacity would go up by at least 10k.

I still find the 10k number dubious, but we will see. I just don't think the overall amount of people let into the parks is going to be different than today. As has been stated the majority of guest will be flocking to SW:GE while the rest of the park (except the areas leading to SW:GE) will be pleasant.

 

[mickEblu]

I still find the 10k number dubious, but we will see. I just don't think the overall amount of people let into the parks is going to be different than today. As has been stated the majority of guest will be flocking to SW:GE while the rest of the park (except the areas leading to SW:GE) will be pleasant.

Unfortunately the areas leading up to SWL contain most of the best attractions in the park.

Ya we ll see. My 10k prediction is just a very rough estimate on what I imagine14 acres of space would fit and a regurgitation of what others have said. But you have to think almost half the acreage is for the two attractions. When folks say both rides will probably have a combined capacity of 3500 per hour what does that really mean in terms of how many people the attraction is holding at a given time? For example, roughly how many people will be riding Battle Escape and be lined up in the Q at a given time?

 

[EPCOTCenterLover]

I think Disney will regret not building SWL as part of its third park.

 

[dweezil78]

I think Disney will regret not building SWL as part of its third park.

They can't even get a parking garage built across the street. Do you have any idea how long it'd take them to get to a place where a third park was actually a viable option?

 

[Disney Irish]

They can't even get a parking garage built across the street. Do you have any idea how long it'd take them to get to a place where a third park was actually a viable option?

Yep, I don't even imagine a third park is in the picture for 20+ years or more(unless of course some magic happens to free up land). No way they were going to sit on SW for that long.

 

[SuddenStorm]

Yep, I don't even imagine a third park is in the picture for 20+ years or more(unless of course some magic happens to free up land). No way they were going to sit on SW for that long.

That doesn't excuse them shoehorning it where it doesn't belong- especially when there is a park that is known to be less crowded, with less rides, literally 100 yards away. DCA would be a pretty amazing park with Star Wars Land- since if Mission Breakout is any indication, Marvel Land won't be of the same caliber that SWL is supposed to be.

Of course, I'm biased since this project gave them the perfect opportunity to ruin a classic show, and I'm not nearly as big a Star Wars fan than others.

 

[Disney Irish]

That doesn't excuse them shoehorning it where it doesn't belong- especially when there is a park that is known to be less crowded, with less rides, literally 100 yards away. DCA would be a pretty amazing park with Star Wars Land- since if Mission Breakout is any indication, Marvel Land won't be of the same caliber that SWL is supposed to be.

Of course, I'm biased since this project gave them the perfect opportunity to ruin a classic show, and I'm not nearly as big a Star Wars fan than others.

I understand from an emotional perspective. But realistically there would have been a trade-off then. If you put SWL in DCA, then Marvel would be going in DL and the complaints would be the same. You can't have both in DCA without completely removing everything else. And then you would have complaints about that. And if they just put everything in WDW leaving DLR alone they would have gotten complaints about that. Basically they were going to have complaints no matter what. Ultimately its matter of available space, and there just isn't much of it in Anaheim. Again a 3rd park isn't in the picture any time soon, if ever. And there was no way they were going to just sit on either of these hot properties for very long. So they use the available space where they can. Now in a perfect world things would be different and space would be unlimited. But we don't live in a perfect world and there is only a finite amount of space.

 

[jmuboy]

Regarding crowding at DL..... I don’t think park capacity will be increased by much. Instead i think the type of crowding we see on Sunday’s in the fall will happen on more days. The quiet summer days will see more people. The overall number of calm days will continue to go away. The crowds will fill into the capacity on low attendance days. I think Disney will manipulate black out days, Magic morning, paid early entry, operating hours all in a way to drive crowds to these dates that have available capacity.

As much as I dislike Marvel and comics in general I do look forward to their addition to the resort to spread out the crowds across both parks. Two new E Tickets into an already decent park will be a nice draw away from DL over time. But let’s not fool ourselves. General high crowd days wil increase not decrease. Just don’t think the max cap on daily attendance will Change that much.

 

[FerretAfros]

I'm sorry but this is not the case for DLR. You may be correct for WDW with larger walkways and a higher over all park capacity. But DL itself has been known to shut the gates, especially recently, at the request of the fire marshal. For example in 2015 the infamous 24 hour event for the 60th anniversary. If you were around for that event, like I was, you would know that this is not some number lower than the fire marshal set limits. This was ~65k wall to wall people all in one location. Now these days are currently few and far between, but it does happen. Currently there are only a handful of times a year where it happens. Point is that some predict these same levels for SW:GE opening.

I would categorize the 24-hour event as a non-traditional day similar to NYE, where Disney knows that people aren't as concerned with having the traditional theme park experience, but rather being there for a special event. With attractions taking the backburner, Disney filled the park based on physical space, rather than the "comfortable" or "enjoyable" capacity. Everybody going to the park that day knew what they were getting themselves into. The event was very different from a typical day in the park, and was treated as such; they wouldn't let that many people in during a normal day in summer or Christmas-week

The real blunder, as anybody with half a clue should have predicted, was having the high-profile premiere of Paint the Night during the high-profile event on a holiday weekend. It was a perfect storm of bad planning. But even so, from my understanding the attractions were pretty manageable, reinforcing my earlier claim that Disney can allow more guests into the park during major entertainment events, since the large-scale waiting areas effectively add "attraction" capacity for a few hours. This obviously works a lot better on normal days, when the parks close a few hours after the big nighttime shows, so lots of people leave the park immediately after, rather than a 24-hour event where people linger all night, creating overcrowding once the big shows are done (similarly, an afternoon parade doesn't do as much for the park's capacity, since there's no expectation for people to leave once it's finished)

 

[Disney Irish]

I would categorize the 24-hour event as a non-traditional day similar to NYE, where Disney knows that people aren't as concerned with having the traditional theme park experience, but rather being there for a special event. With attractions taking the backburner, Disney filled the park based on physical space, rather than the "comfortable" or "enjoyable" capacity. Everybody going to the park that day knew what they were getting themselves into. The event was very different from a typical day in the park, and was treated as such; they wouldn't let that many people in during a normal day in summer or Christmas-week

The real blunder, as anybody with half a clue should have predicted, was having the high-profile premiere of Paint the Night during the high-profile event on a holiday weekend. It was a perfect storm of bad planning. But even so, from my understanding the attractions were pretty manageable, reinforcing my earlier claim that Disney can allow more guests into the park during major entertainment events, since the large-scale waiting areas effectively add "attraction" capacity for a few hours. This obviously works a lot better on normal days, when the parks close a few hours after the big nighttime shows, so lots of people leave the park immediately after, rather than a 24-hour event where people linger all night, creating overcrowding once the big shows are done (similarly, an afternoon parade doesn't do as much for the park's capacity, since there's no expectation for people to leave once it's finished)

With 24 hour event it sounds like you were not there, unlike myself who was there for almost the entire 24 hours. Attractions during the day were not manageable. It was a mad house by 9-10am. The only time it became manageable was after all the nighttime entertainment was over and people left around 11pm. And even then new people were not let in until after 3am. So those manageable times you spoke of was when the park was empty from 11pm to 3am before they let new guests in from 3am-6am.

Also where are these large scale waiting areas you speak of in Disneyland? There is only a finite amount of space at Disneyland on Main St, Hub, and NOS for people to stand. This is not extra capacity. This entire space is counted toward max park capacity.

From what I can tell you seem more experienced with WDW and how Magic Kingdom is setup, its not the same at Disneyland. There is not some large scale waiting area to throw extra bodies. In fact they had to build overflow paths behind the Main St shops just so people could get in and out when Main St is blocked during nighttime entertainment. And if you've ever been during nighttime entertainment you'd know you can't get to certain areas of the park because they direct you away.

 

[Mike S]

And there was no way they were going to just sit on either of these hot properties for very long.

Marvel was acquired in 2009 and we just got official news of real park plans stateside in 2017...

 

[Disney Irish]

Marvel was acquired in 2009 and we just got official news of real park plans stateside in 2017...

Point of fact the acquisition while announced in Aug 2009, it didn't complete until basically 2010. So Disney didn't have the ability to do anything with Marvel until then.

Marvel attractions started being announced in 2014 with HKDL, then 2016 with GotG in DCA. From acquisition to first attractions announcements was 4 years, with first US attraction announcement 2 years later. Not very long after being acquired.

So whats your point?

 

[Mike S]

Point of fact the acquisition while announced in Aug 2009, it didn't complete until basically 2010. So Disney didn't have the ability to do anything with Marvel until then.

Marvel attractions started being announced in 2014 with HKDL, then 2016 with GotG in DCA. From acquisition to first attractions announcements was 4 years, with first US attraction announcement 2 years later. Not very long after being acquired.

So whats your point?

They were sitting on it for a while, contrary to what you said.

 

[Rich T]

Disney has become an elephantine monster of a corporation that takes far too long to act on anything because it's full of yes-people execs who 1) have never actually set foot inside a theme park and 2) are afraid of making any big decision that could jeopardize their retirement package. It's the nature of the beast. Marvel fans can only hope that the wait will be worth it and that the whole superhero bubble doesn't burst in the meantime and all future Marvel park plans dropped like a rotting mackerel.

 

[180º]

Disney has become an elephantine monster of a corporation that takes far too long to act on anything because it's full of yes-people execs who 1) have never actually set foot inside a theme park and 2) are afraid of making any big decision that could jeopardize their retirement package. It's the nature of the beast.

I agree completely.

Come to think of it, I wouldn't mind at all if

the whole superhero bubble...burst in the meantime and all future Marvel park plans dropped like a rotting mackerel.

But love it or hate it, I think there's steam yet left in Marvel properties.

 

[TROR]

Marvel will decline in popularity after Avengers Infinity War. You cannot build up to something for years and then expect it to continue the same after you've reached the climax unless you have something greater up your sleeve. Does anyone think, though, that there is anything better to build towards than Thanos?