Wookies, & Rebels, & Droids... OH WHY?! The Anti-SWL in Disneyland Thread

[Rich T]

Nothing about talking bugs, lions, or fish is real and authentic.

Imaginative creatures from a different world is no different than a fantasy world of dragons that doesn't exist on earth, which is what Beastly Kingdomme was, or a colony of talking ants going up against talking grasshoppers

The difference is that dragon myths are a part of human culture. It's woven into our society and reflects how our ancestors thought about nature. AK is a park about Earth's animals and (in the original pitch) our legends and myths that sprung from our encounters with those animals.

 

[Deleted member 107043]

To be honest after the Avatar debate, I realized how much worse the Star Wars Land decision is than Avatar

I'm still willing to see it through, but the points for SWL I can't argue as objectively as I could Avatar

I agree, but at the same time SW Land is going to be so awesome I really don't care if it fits or not.

*runs away*

 

[spacemt354]

I agree, but at the same time SW Land is going to be so awesome I really don't care if it fits or not.

*runs away*

That's my argument for it as well. I mean you're getting 2 E-tickets when WDW hasn't gotten an E-ticket in 10 years

Count your blessings. *ducks for cover*

However, I understand that's subjective and I can see the other side of the argument. With Avatar, I'm a little bit less inclined, even though everyone has a right to an opinion.

 

[Rich T]

And just for fun here's the text of Disneyland's Tomorrowland dedication plaque:

A vista into a world of wondrous ideas, signifying man's achievements...a step into the future, with predictions of constructive things to come.

Tomorrow offers new frontiers in science, adventure and ideals: the Atomic Age...the challenges of outer space...and the hope for a peaceful and unified world.

Sounds pretty accurate, right?

In 1955, that's exactly what they were aiming for. By the mid 60's they'd gotten pretty close... assuming we all loved the idea of big corporations doing no wrong. Yeah, Monsanto! Gimme those plastic clothes!

 

[Earl Sweatpants]

And just for fun here's the text of Disneyland's Tomorrowland dedication plaque:

A vista into a world of wondrous ideas, signifying man's achievements...a step into the future, with predictions of constructive things to come.

Tomorrow offers new frontiers in science, adventure and ideals: the Atomic Age...the challenges of outer space...and the hope for a peaceful and unified world.

Sounds pretty accurate, right?

Don't even want to post the Epcot dedication plaque...Maybe the point is that you can't always have your cake and eat it too.

 

[spacemt354]

The difference is that dragon myths are a part of human culture. It's woven into our society and reflects how our ancestors thought about nature. AK is a park about Earth's animals and (in the original pitch) our legends and myths that sprung from our encounters with those animals.

I'm not gonna argue this anymore. I've said my thoughts and if you disagree, that's fine, but this is a Star Wars thread so we might as well talk about that.

 

[Rich T]

I agree, but at the same time SW Land is going to be so awesome I really don't care if it fits or not.

*runs away*

...Unless it sucks (unlikely). Yeah, I'm hoping to be there opening day. I still say it could become Discovery Bay fairly easily if the public ever tires of SW...

 

[Rich T]

I'm not gonna argue this anymore. I've said my thoughts and if you disagree, that's fine, but this is a Star Wars thread so we might as well talk about that.

Star Wars should not be in Disneyland because it's not Americana!

 

[Earl Sweatpants]

...Unless it sucks (unlikely). Yeah, I'm hoping to be there opening day. I still say it could become Discovery Bay fairly easily if the public ever tires of SW...

That was actually gonna be a point I was going to raise. They're giving such a HUGE parcel of land to one IP...should that IP ever become a dud, it will be a bear to try and re-theme the entire area as opposed to just one attraction. They really have to hope SW never goes out of style.

 

[Deleted member 107043]

In 1955, that's exactly what they were aiming for. By the mid 60's they'd gotten pretty close... assuming we all loved the idea of big corporations doing no wrong. Yeah, Monsanto! Gimme those plastic clothes!

I'm going to try not to get into a TL debate, but I will say that DL's TL has never filled the promise made by Walt on opening day. In its heyday in the late 60s and early 70s it was a manifestation of the spirit of that promise, but the "living blueprint" Disney touted during the park's development never materialized.

 

[spacemt354]

That was actually gonna be a point I was going to raise. They're giving such a HUGE parcel of land to one IP...should that IP ever become a dud, it will be a bear to try and re-theme the entire area as opposed to just one attraction. They're really have to hope SW never goes out of style.

I'd be more concerned if it was a recent film or superhero film where the actors and actresses change out, and it then feels dated.

But Star Wars is part of pop culture. It's iconic. The characters, score, etc. Much like Mickey, Minnie, Donald and so on these are characters that stand the test of time.

And all word from insiders say that the rides will be spectacular, which is really encouraging.

 

[Earl Sweatpants]

I'd be more concerned if it was a recent film or superhero film where the actors and actresses change out, and it then feels dated.

But Star Wars is part of pop culture. It's iconic. The characters, score, etc. Much like Mickey, Minnie, Donald and so on these are characters that stand the test of time.

And all word from insiders say that the rides will be spectacular, which is really encouraging.

True. Though to be fair, superheroes like Batman, Superman, Spiderman are part of pop culture and a ride dedicated to them would be successful regardless of which current actor was portraying them.

I have no doubt SWL is going to be an incredible experience for true die-hard fans and casual fans alike. I'll check it out...eventually. But for the immediate time, I just hope it decreases the traffic at other areas of the park

 

[Curious Constance]

I don't want to derail this thread, but alas, these discussions are just too fun to pass up...

I promise after this, I'll try to have self control.

If I had a nickel for every time I told myself this. Dayyyyum, I'd be set.

 

[BrianLo]

They are stories of coexistence. They teach respect for nature. They help guests understand the real stakes that are at risk here.

Can I lodge a complete disagreement?

Your criteria above describes the Avatar movie far more than it does fantasy myths. Despite the mental math afterward. That's literally the moral of the movie's story: Coexistence and respect for nature.

I know there is a strong romanticization of the Beastley Kingdomme concept, but what they had envisioned was inferior to what they are building for Pandora. Just because something lacks an IP association or was dreamed up well over a decade ago does not always mean the product would have been better. The opposite applies of course, often they phone it in by attaching an IP and calling it good enough.

Arguably we can look at the list of the best rides in the world. Some are IP based, some are based on long decayed IP and some are completely new creations. We can also apply it to some of the worst rides we've seen produced and all equally apply. It's the execution that matters far more than the starting point.

We think too fondly about the what if's. Beastly Kingdomme could have been ok, but not the second coming simply because it was a 'new' idea.

On another note, I don't think Beastly Kingdomme is a far-flung impossibility either. Personally I'd rather see South America before AK's Fantasyland. But there is more than enough space.

 

[Mike S]

Can I lodge a complete disagreement?

Your criteria above describes the Avatar movie far more than it does fantasy myths. Despite the mental math afterward. That's literally the moral of the movie's story: Coexistence and respect for nature.

I know there is a strong romanticization of the Beastley Kingdomme concept, but what they had envisioned was inferior to what they are building for Pandora. Just because something lacks an IP association or was dreamed up well over a decade ago does not always mean the product would have been better. The opposite applies of course, often they phone it in by attaching an IP and calling it good enough.

Arguably we can look at the list of the best rides in the world. Some are IP based, some are based on long decayed IP and some are completely new creations. We can also apply it to some of the worst rides we've seen produced and all equally apply. It's the execution that matters far more than the starting point.

We think too fondly about the what if's. Beastly Kingdomme could have been ok, but not the second coming simply because it was a 'new' idea.

On another note, I don't think Beastly Kingdomme is a far-flung impossibility either. Personally I'd rather see South America before AK's Fantasyland. But there is more than enough space.

I want Australia.

 

[Deleted member 107043]

I want Australia.

Talk about a beastly kingdom. Have you seen the terrifying creatures that live there??

 

[DDLand]

Can I lodge a complete disagreement?

Your criteria above describes the Avatar movie far more than it does fantasy myths. Despite the mental math afterward. That's literally the moral of the movie's story: Coexistence and respect for nature.

I know there is a strong romanticization of the Beastley Kingdomme concept, but what they had envisioned was inferior to what they are building for Pandora. Just because something lacks an IP association or was dreamed up well over a decade ago does not always mean the product would have been better. The opposite applies of course, often they phone it in by attaching an IP and calling it good enough.

Arguably we can look at the list of the best rides in the world. Some are IP based, some are based on long decayed IP and some are completely new creations. We can also apply it to some of the worst rides we've seen produced and all equally apply. It's the execution that matters far more than the starting point.

We think too fondly about the what if's. Beastly Kingdomme could have been ok, but not the second coming simply because it was a 'new' idea.

On another note, I don't think Beastly Kingdomme is a far-flung impossibility either. Personally I'd rather see South America before AK's Fantasyland. But there is more than enough space.

You can hardly say that the concept is inferior.

Apart from the inconsistency of comparing a nearly fully built Billion dollar land to a handful of concept sketches, we also lack deep story knowledge on either Pandora or Beastly Kingdomme's attractions.

By being nearly fully built and having a movie, it becomes so much easier to overlook the negatives and find how it fits. Your lack of faith in the designer's ability to create a compelling original product is peculiar. I consider you someone who values themed creativity. Saying that James Cameron is inherently a better story maker in the physical realm is somewhat of an insult to the team of people who have worked on Disney's Animal Kingdom from its inception. Are book authors inherently better at film than a filmmaker?

I just don't buy the reason Avatar is being built is because of a lack of good ideas. That's a cop out. It's because of some Executive's pride.

We also lost our European section of the park. Disney's Animal Kingdom was to be a world showcase of sorts. American, Asian, African, and European culture on display.

This is a major compromise. Technically we could look at films like Bambi for similiar themes. That wouldn't work because it's animated film just like Avatar. Strange things.

 

[BrianLo]

You can hardly say that the concept is inferior.

Apart from the inconsistency of comparing a nearly fully built Billion dollar land to a handful of concept sketches, we also lack deep story knowledge on either Pandora or Beastly Kingdomme's attractions.

By being nearly fully built and having a movie, it becomes so much easier to overlook the negatives and find how it fits. Your lack of faith in the designer's ability to create a compelling original product is peculiar. I consider you someone who values themed creativity. Saying that James Cameron is inherently a better story maker in the physical realm is somewhat of an insult to the team of people who have worked on Disney's Animal Kingdom from its inception. Are book authors inherently better at film than a filmmaker?

I just don't buy the reason Avatar is being built is because of a lack of good ideas. That's a cop out. It's because of some Executive's pride.

We also lost our European section of the park. Disney's Animal Kingdom was to be a world showcase of sorts. American, Asian, African, and European culture on display.

This is a major compromise. Technically we could look at films like Bambi for similiar themes. That wouldn't work because it's animated film just like Avatar. Strange things.

I think you misunderstood me. In no way am I saying James Cameron is a better story maker, nor could the designers not create a compelling original product. I just try and set aside the executives motivation for funding projects from what WDI actually produces.

What I am saying is this will succeed in the realm of themed creativity, despite it not actually being ground up original and motivated by executives. Implicitly, despite these perceived flaws they managed to craft a far more befitting and fairly Animal Kingdom appropriate adaptation from a movie world. I think you are concluding that original ideas will always craft a better product and from what I know about both of them, this wouldn't have actually been the case.

It's apples to oranges, granted. We are talking about something dreamt up in the late 90's versus something designed in the last 5 years. Pandora is also far more expensive than Beastly Kingdomme would have been and betrays some small scale charm in favour of grandiosity. As a land this could be in the running for the most visually stunning built at the entire resort, Beastly Kingdomme would have not quite made the short-list, but they each served slightly different purposes and masters.

Adapting a land from works of fiction like novels, mythical tales or inspired by real world landmarks doesn't have to be creatively superior to adapting one from a fictional movie. It depends on what the designers do with it. I feel the same way about Star Wars that it's insulting to the WDI designers that people think they creatively had a far easier go than designing something from the ground up. They could have, but they took the far more difficult road of creating something new for the parks. That project isn't the case of Potter where movie sets were lifted and appropriated into a theme park setting. It was very much a re-imagining and purpose built land. It in every way fulfills the same "creativity" as New Orleans Square did by lifting and adapting real world structures.

I'm not saying we should totally ignore external factors like executives, IP mandates or serious placement concerns many have with quite a few upcoming projects. I just want to say they don't have to invalidate some of the things the creatives are doing with the hand they've been dealt.

 

[BrianLo]

We also lost our European section of the park. Disney's Animal Kingdom was to be a world showcase of sorts. American, Asian, African, and European culture on display.

Just a separate comment about this. I understand where you are coming from, but I don't lament that too much. The resort is overflowing with Europe and Americana. South America or as @Mike S mentioned Australia would have actually been something new instead of Disney pulling from the same bag of tricks. WDW as a whole doesn't lack Europe.

 

[flynnibus]

Can we stop taking the bait and move whatever "I hate avatar" talk to the avatar threads?