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Will it Star Wars?

Brad Bishop

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
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But force awakens was a reboot that swapped 4 iconic characters for 4 less interesting, underdeveloped ones...
Yep. Vader was awesome. I remember being a kid and being frightened of him. He was evil.

While Luke whined a good bit in the first one, you were watching this small band of people, and robots, become friends, and fight the enemy. It's charm was in how simple it all was. Anyone on the street can name can name the 7 main characters of Star Wars.

I, II, and III blew all of that out of the water and expanded the universe greatly. At that point it was like trying to keep track of your local, state, and federal representatives as well as what bills were up for debate and who their enemies were. I know some got into it but I had a really hard time following it and eventually landed on just not caring.

In the middle of that you have the "ultimate enemy" of Darth Maul who's so tough that he's taken out later in the same film. He, in my opinion, actually could have been a Vader-like evil that the story needed. Nope. Finished off. Easy peasy.

Eventually you get to Rey who "just knows how to do everything". Luke is supposedly like a chosen one and he actually had to spend time learning and honing his skills. Rey's been living on scrap metal in the dessert and thus can operate any vehicle and needs absolutely no Jedi training because she knows everything. Rey isn't a character with a flaw but, instead, a flawed character.

Ren doesn't play an "ultimate villain" like Vader, though it seems like he's trying to be Vader like, but instead comes across as a spoiled brat who throws temper tantrums. He's not a very foreboding.

The lines:
- "I sense the good inside you."
- "I'll turn you to the dark side."

Are a bit overused at this point. Also there was Space Leia in the last one which I didn't understand.

Some of the better characters in the last 2 movies get pushed aside: Finn & Poe.

I don't really understand why Rose was so prominent nor why Snoke was made out to be the new emperor only to be off'd. That one scene at the end of Last Jedi where they hyperspace through the fleet and all of the bad buys are destroyed but Rose and Finn are fine - that's idiot story telling. That's as bad as Indy in the fridge.

I'm not faulting anyone for liking them. These are just my problems with them.
 

Brad Bishop

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
Unless you’re Darth Vader explaining how you went from being a little kid with great promise and gifts to ending up as Darth Vader.
Darth Vader being a kid was uninteresting (kind of my point). Even whatever he was doing in II was uninteresting (I can't remember what). He really didn't become interesting until about 1/2 way through III where you see, "oh, that's why he went to the Dark Side.." That part actually is interesting. You can even sum it up: He wanted to help but he was immature. The other Jedis, rather than trying to guide him, mentor him, pushed him aside again and again until he was fed up and said, "You know what - the Dark Side is sounding better by the minute!" Add to it the battle on volcano-planet where you learn how he lost his limbs and became entombed into his dark suit. All of that is interesting.
 

Sirwalterraleigh

Well-Known Member
Darth Vader being a kid was uninteresting (kind of my point). Even whatever he was doing in II was uninteresting (I can't remember what). He really didn't become interesting until about 1/2 way through III where you see, "oh, that's why he went to the Dark Side.." That part actually is interesting. You can even sum it up: He wanted to help but he was immature. The other Jedis, rather than trying to guide him, mentor him, pushed him aside again and again until he was fed up and said, "You know what - the Dark Side is sounding better by the minute!" Add to it the battle on volcano-planet where you learn how he lost his limbs and became entombed into his dark suit. All of that is interesting.
The general premise of 3 worked...but failed in execution...

Wrong actor...it’s been said - and its true. Couldn’t pull it off.

And the computer graphics nonsense really took away from the story. So they battle it out and Vader is a lost cause? That would have been great if it had been done on a set...

But al the twirly nonsense didn’t fit with the original tone...sorry, George....own it.

And swinging from “vines” over lava? That’s like James Bond type stuff...they needed more of a jason Bourne feel.

Ehh...my fandom is near an end. All the missteps make anyone talking about the originals look like an old fart. Problem is that it shouldn’t be a fans fault.
 
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danlb_2000

Premium Member
I don't believe Star Wars is indeed Sci-fi. Sci-fi is rooted in a futuristic timeline whereas Star Wars is in an alternative universe (not alternate universe). It's an original place, much like Game of Thrones is in that regard. There is also a lack of scientific focus. Sure there is high tech, and low tech, but they aren't part of the story. The story is as old as the stories in Errol Flynn movies. It's why tube tvs and monotext fonts in Star Wars aren't as out of place as they are in Star Trek for example.
I agree that Star Wars is not really Sci-Fi, it's an adventure story in the trappings of Sci-Fi. This is not because it's set in an alternate universe, it's more the second piece of your argument, that it isn't about technology, you could tell the exact same story in almost any time period.
 

Dutch Inn '76

Well-Known Member
I agree that as well as Disney has done with Marvel, they've done that badly with Star Wars. But Star Wars as a franchise is MORE powerful today than they were 20 years ago. All they need to do to fix this problem is fire Kathleen Kennedy and find a good Lucasfilm manager. Heck, ask Kevin Feige to come over. He has to be getting bored with Marvel by now...
 

Incomudro

Well-Known Member
Aside from my lasting love of Carrie Fisher, I've never been much of a Star Wars fan.

With that in mind, when Cars Land was announced, I didn't give a damn. Then I went and it became one my favorite lands ever.

Pandora was announced, I didn't give a damn. Now, it's my favorite land/area at WDW.

On that same trajectory, I'm sure I'll love Star Wars: Fantasy Awaits (or whatever). I'll be 1,882,442nd in line (because I don't do crowds anymore, NYC excepted), which for me, is practically opening day. Exaggerating with the numbers, WDWMagic engineers. And yeah, if there still are crowds, I did Harry Potter: The Wizarding World of Jo Rowling on opening day, so I got mad skillz.

Not that it means anything in the grand scheme of your question but I think Disney is now turning it out theme-wise in ways we haven't seen in a long time. I'm on board. And I think that no matter what they do to the franchise, there are enough 50 year-old geeks to pay the big bucks to keep it going.

For sure.
And the Falcon ride and outdoor prop are the bridge between old and new.
Fans who don't care for the newer films will be flocking around that prop for photos and riding the ride as some fulfillment of a dream.
 

Sirwalterraleigh

Well-Known Member
I agree that Star Wars is not really Sci-Fi, it's an adventure story in the trappings of Sci-Fi. This is not because it's set in an alternate universe, it's more the second piece of your argument, that it isn't about technology, you could tell the exact same story in almost any time period.
Correct which means lucas’s Decision to go away from story driven to Techno was wrong...he never got his own appeal.

And Disney’s decision to go to reinterpretation/nuance was wrong...

Nobody gets it. Hollywood/Wall Street suits are more Wharton than hemingway these days.

Aside from my lasting love of Carrie Fisher, I've never been much of a Star Wars fan.

With that in mind, when Cars Land was announced, I didn't give a damn. Then I went and it became one my favorite lands ever.

Pandora was announced, I didn't give a damn. Now, it's my favorite land/area at WDW.

On that same trajectory, I'm sure I'll love Star Wars: Fantasy Awaits (or whatever). I'll be 1,882,442nd in line (because I don't do crowds anymore, NYC excepted), which for me, is practically opening day. Exaggerating with the numbers, WDWMagic engineers. And yeah, if there still are crowds, I did Harry Potter: The Wizarding World of Jo Rowling on opening day, so I got mad skillz.

Not that it means anything in the grand scheme of your question but I think Disney is now turning it out theme-wise in ways we haven't seen in a long time. I'm on board. And I think that no matter what they do to the franchise, there are enough 50 year-old geeks to pay the big bucks to keep it going.
For sure.
And the Falcon ride and outdoor prop are the bridge between old and new.
Fans who don't care for the newer films will be flocking around that prop for photos and riding the ride as some fulfillment of a dream.
I think that’s true of almost any franchise except Star Wars...

If any fan base would should melancholy over what they perceive to be inadequacies of the parks...it’s this one. Something to watch.

They may hate it. Not possible? I’ll take you In my time capsule to May 1999 and we’ll do some interviews
 

Sirwalterraleigh

Well-Known Member
I agree that as well as Disney has done with Marvel, they've done that badly with Star Wars. But Star Wars as a franchise is MORE powerful today than they were 20 years ago. All they need to do to fix this problem is fire Kathleen Kennedy and find a good Lucasfilm manager. Heck, ask Kevin Feige to come over. He has to be getting bored with Marvel by now...
The power of the franchise was at its peak 95-99...when there was raw enthusiasm ramped up.

They sell more junk now...but that doesn’t mean the same thing
 

Brad Bishop

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
The power of the franchise was at its peak 95-99...when there was raw enthusiasm ramped up.

They sell more junk now...but that doesn’t mean the same thing
I'd argue two things here:

1) I think it's peak was more likely in the mid 1980s.. Maybe even the early 1980s. Everything was Star Wars back then. Every kid collected the Kenner action figures (not dolls - stop calling them that). Star Wars merch, how Lucas made a crap-ton of money, was flying off the shelves in the early 1980s. I'd even argue that it started dying off a bit by Empire, because people, at the time (myself included), didn't get it, and then Return because it was where they really started trying to have that "kid hook" with the Ewoks (which they didn't need in Star Wars or Empire). This was back in the day when movies would stay in the theaters for months, or in the case of E.T. years (I think it was 48 months at my local theater), if it were popular and people would see it again and again.

I won't argue against the increased hype with the anticipation of I, II, and III. There was definite excitement there. I don't know that it beat a solid 5+ years of STAR WARS IS AWESOME from 1977 - 1983 or so. Seriously, if you were a kid at Christmas in 1977 you got a card for Christmas that promised you an action figure because they couldn't make them fast enough.

This is where it starts mixing with point 2:

Contrast that with today where they can't dump these toys on clearance for $1 (go look it up at YouTube, there's a few guys who are fascinated by how the rest of the toy store/section is cleaned out and you have SW toys marked on clearance for $1 and they still can't get rid of them. I think they even hit the last days of Toys R Us and there was plenty of marked-down Star Wars stock to be had. Today's Star Wars merch doesn't move like it did in the 1970s and early 1980s and, while I don't have the numbers, I don't think it ever reached that point during the late 1990s before I, II, and III. Definitely not after because those movies were largely disappointments.

Granted, I'm older now and my kids have kids but of the people I know who have kids I've never seen any of them play with Star Wars toys nor show any interest in Star Wars. They don't even bring it up if one of the current movies is playing. That wasn't the case in the late 1970s where everyone was like "born-again" Star Wars fans who couldn't say a sentence without injecting Star Wars into it.

I remember being excited before I, II, and III. I had that same anticipation as many other people but, again, it wasn't like when I was a kid.
 

Sirwalterraleigh

Well-Known Member
I'd argue two things here:

1) I think it's peak was more likely in the mid 1980s.. Maybe even the early 1980s. Everything was Star Wars back then. Every kid collected the Kenner action figures (not dolls - stop calling them that). Star Wars merch, how Lucas made a crap-ton of money, was flying off the shelves in the early 1980s. I'd even argue that it started dying off a bit by Empire, because people, at the time (myself included), didn't get it, and then Return because it was where they really started trying to have that "kid hook" with the Ewoks (which they didn't need in Star Wars or Empire). This was back in the day when movies would stay in the theaters for months, or in the case of E.T. years (I think it was 48 months at my local theater), if it were popular and people would see it again and again.

I won't argue against the increased hype with the anticipation of I, II, and III. There was definite excitement there. I don't know that it beat a solid 5+ years of STAR WARS IS AWESOME from 1977 - 1983 or so. Seriously, if you were a kid at Christmas in 1977 you got a card for Christmas that promised you an action figure because they couldn't make them fast enough.

This is where it starts mixing with point 2:

Contrast that with today where they can't dump these toys on clearance for $1 (go look it up at YouTube, there's a few guys who are fascinated by how the rest of the toy store/section is cleaned out and you have SW toys marked on clearance for $1 and they still can't get rid of them. I think they even hit the last days of Toys R Us and there was plenty of marked-down Star Wars stock to be had. Today's Star Wars merch doesn't move like it did in the 1970s and early 1980s and, while I don't have the numbers, I don't think it ever reached that point during the late 1990s before I, II, and III. Definitely not after because those movies were largely disappointments.

Granted, I'm older now and my kids have kids but of the people I know who have kids I've never seen any of them play with Star Wars toys nor show any interest in Star Wars. They don't even bring it up if one of the current movies is playing. That wasn't the case in the late 1970s where everyone was like "born-again" Star Wars fans who couldn't say a sentence without injecting Star Wars into it.

I remember being excited before I, II, and III. I had that same anticipation as many other people but, again, it wasn't like when I was a kid.
Well we are the same age bracket and I get what you’re saying...

But I can’t compare when the movies were new and it dominated a small/nonexistent blockbuster movie landscape to anything.

But the 90’s when everything was 15-20 years old was amazing...toys started to pop out en mass after heir to the empire and there was a long, growing buzz in the early internet age.

Apples and oranges to me.
 

Incomudro

Well-Known Member
I'd argue two things here:

1) I think it's peak was more likely in the mid 1980s.. Maybe even the early 1980s. Everything was Star Wars back then. Every kid collected the Kenner action figures (not dolls - stop calling them that). Star Wars merch, how Lucas made a crap-ton of money, was flying off the shelves in the early 1980s. I'd even argue that it started dying off a bit by Empire, because people, at the time (myself included), didn't get it, and then Return because it was where they really started trying to have that "kid hook" with the Ewoks (which they didn't need in Star Wars or Empire). This was back in the day when movies would stay in the theaters for months, or in the case of E.T. years (I think it was 48 months at my local theater), if it were popular and people would see it again and again.

I won't argue against the increased hype with the anticipation of I, II, and III. There was definite excitement there. I don't know that it beat a solid 5+ years of STAR WARS IS AWESOME from 1977 - 1983 or so. Seriously, if you were a kid at Christmas in 1977 you got a card for Christmas that promised you an action figure because they couldn't make them fast enough.

This is where it starts mixing with point 2:

Contrast that with today where they can't dump these toys on clearance for $1 (go look it up at YouTube, there's a few guys who are fascinated by how the rest of the toy store/section is cleaned out and you have SW toys marked on clearance for $1 and they still can't get rid of them. I think they even hit the last days of Toys R Us and there was plenty of marked-down Star Wars stock to be had. Today's Star Wars merch doesn't move like it did in the 1970s and early 1980s and, while I don't have the numbers, I don't think it ever reached that point during the late 1990s before I, II, and III. Definitely not after because those movies were largely disappointments.

Granted, I'm older now and my kids have kids but of the people I know who have kids I've never seen any of them play with Star Wars toys nor show any interest in Star Wars. They don't even bring it up if one of the current movies is playing. That wasn't the case in the late 1970s where everyone was like "born-again" Star Wars fans who couldn't say a sentence without injecting Star Wars into it.

I remember being excited before I, II, and III. I had that same anticipation as many other people but, again, it wasn't like when I was a kid.

Shields up for me here, I believe the loss of interest in the toys is partially due to the fact that the films have turned away from their core audience - young boys - in order to cast a wider net.
Not too many girls are going to buy action figures no matter how hard the films run the strong female cast.
At the same time, boy lose interest as well.
 

Sirwalterraleigh

Well-Known Member
Shields up for me here, I believe the loss of interest in the toys is partially due to the fact that the films have turned away from their core audience - young boys - in order to cast a wider net.
Not too many girls are going to buy action figures no matter how hard the films run the strong female cast.
At the same time, boy lose interest as well.
You have a Good point.

But just to add to that - toys are in decline as well. They aren’t competing well with digital entertainment and more of a scheduled outdoor/sports lifestyle
 
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danyoung56

Well-Known Member
I was 7 in 1977 when Star Wars, before it was renamed to Star Wars, Episode IV, A New Hope, came out.
I haven't read the entire thread, but in case no one posted this - Star Wars was always titled Episode IV, A New Hope. I remember reading that in the opening scroll and being shocked that episodes 1 through 3 hadn't been made yet.
 

Brad Bishop

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
You have a Good point.

But just to add to that - toys are in decline as well. They aren’t competing well with digital entertainment and more of a scheduled outdoor/sports lifestyle
Not only could you argue that traditional toys are in decline but we don't watch movies the way we used to, either.

Even for I, II, and III theater viewing was dying off (meaning it was dying off at the time, just in general).

Now it's rare for a popular movie to stay in the theater for more than a month and the DVD/Bluray/Digital Download comes out in 2 months, anyway.

All valid arguments against me.
 

Brad Bishop

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
I haven't read the entire thread, but in case no one posted this - Star Wars was always titled Episode IV, A New Hope. I remember reading that in the opening scroll and being shocked that episodes 1 through 3 hadn't been made yet.
Maybe. That may have been on the opening scroll but when it first hit theaters (it was just a movie with no intention of having sequels - just some project for Lucas to do that they thought would fail) it was just, "Star Wars".

I think it was only after Episode V that it was, at least officially title on posters and marquees as, "Star Wars IV: A New Hope".

Perhaps some die-hard Star Wars guy can shed more light on it.
 

Maerj

Well-Known Member
Maybe. That may have been on the opening scroll but when it first hit theaters (it was just a movie with no intention of having sequels - just some project for Lucas to do that they thought would fail) it was just, "Star Wars".

I think it was only after Episode V that it was, at least officially title on posters and marquees as, "Star Wars IV: A New Hope".

Perhaps some die-hard Star Wars guy can shed more light on it.
This is true. During the re-release they added the episode 4 A New Hope.
 

Sirwalterraleigh

Well-Known Member
Maybe. That may have been on the opening scroll but when it first hit theaters (it was just a movie with no intention of having sequels - just some project for Lucas to do that they thought would fail) it was just, "Star Wars".

I think it was only after Episode V that it was, at least officially title on posters and marquees as, "Star Wars IV: A New Hope".

Perhaps some die-hard Star Wars guy can shed more light on it.
I just watched the interview circa 2010 where gary Kurtz addressed that.

They had an outline for more than one movie...but Lucas and fox thought it would flop so they took the idea of franchise off the table for practical purposes and “Star Wars” scrolled on the scream without an episode.

The fox executives also said 4 would be too confusing and would make what looked like a long shot movie even more of a Head scratcher.
 
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