Why Epcot is Moving from "Infotainment"

Dizknee_Phreek

Well-Known Member
Originally posted by EchoOfOphelia
Well I have faith in Disney, MOST of their new rides are fantastic like Test Track and Buzz Lightyear Space Ranger Spin (one of my new favorites) are very good... however I worry when I see rehabs like Winnie the Pooh's Adventures and Energy with Ellen and Bill Nye.

i agree, i liked TT and BLSRS, and the Millenium Celebration was genius! but i too worry with Winnie the Pooh (though there were parts of it i liked) as well as Adventureland (i still wonder what in the hell they were thinking?) can't put my 2 cents in with UoE...i haven't ridden it since they updated it to Ellen and Bill...though you reminded me, i meant to do it while i was there in Nov. i just love Bill Nye and i want to see it before they either update it again or do away with it completely.
i have mixed feelings when it comes to faith in Disney these days...i'm hoping their judgement will get better (as i'm sure it will) but i'm afraid it's gonna take some time.
 

ToTBellHop

Well-Known Member
I don't think I need to remind you all that Winnie the Pooh has queue lines averaging about 10 times longer than Toad's...(50+ minutes versus about 5)
 

kennyj29

Member
Winnie the Pooh

I love that ride!!!!!! I'm the only one in my family that likes it better than Toad but Toad was just cut out shapes it wasn't as much fun as Pooh is!
 

MKCustodial

Well-Known Member
Originally posted by DogsRule!
I don't think I need to remind you all that Winnie the Pooh has queue lines averaging about 10 times longer than Toad's...(50+ minutes versus about 5)

I don't think I need to remind you that, along the lines of CoP and Timekeeper, Disney never did much to advertise Toad. The least they could do was keep his movie at its gift shop... :rolleyes:
 

kennyj29

Member
Mr. Toad

You have to realize that Toad is not a very popular character as Disney characters go. Maybe more adult oriented. Winnie the Pooh is a huge hit among kids (and big kids) and would naturally bring a much larger crowd!!!!!!
 

MKCustodial

Well-Known Member
Re: Mr. Toad

Originally posted by kennyj29
You have to realize that Toad is not a very popular character as Disney characters go. Maybe more adult oriented. Winnie the Pooh is a huge hit among kids (and big kids) and would naturally bring a much larger crowd!!!!!!

By all means, I know the bears is pretty much taking over the World, I noticed that during my CM run, and it's obvious it has more appeal than Toad. What I'm saying is that MAYBE Toad would've put up more of a fight if Disney gave him proper marketing. It's much like Treasure Planet, which is a TOTALLY Disney movie from beginning to end, but tons of people passed on it fearing it was another Atlantis, thanks to Disney's AWFUL marketing campaign, that did nothing to deny those rumors.
 

ToTBellHop

Well-Known Member
Mr Toad was an old ride...it was time for a replacement. A drunk toad is not charismatic at all...I find Pooh much more appealing. Who would go to a Toad Character Breakfast? Toad was a movie teaching people not to drink and drive--that doesn't really belong in Fantasyland.
 

Dizknee_Phreek

Well-Known Member
i'm sorry if i'm starting a whole new arguement or whatever here, but the "Mr. Toad being an old ride" excuse just doesn't cut it for me. now, i'm not saying i'm a big fan of Mr. Toad...i actually never rode it...but that's not my point...my point is is that look at all the old rides in MK...PotC, HM, SM, JC...all oldies, and they don't appear to be going anywhere for a long time! i really doubt that Mr. Toad being old is the reason why Disney scrapped it. Mr. Toad being unpopular is probably more the reason. i'm with MKCustodial on this one...maybe if they had promoted it a little better....i'm not saying it would've made a difference because there's a big, fat chance it wouldn't have...i'm just saying maybe they should've tried a little harder. *shrugs* just my opinion.

and no, DogsRule...you don't have to remind us that Pooh has longer lines than Toad...i don't know about anyone else, but that fact doesn't change my opinion that Pooh isn't the best Disney attraction i've ever been on. it's by far not the worst, but certainly not the best.
 

ToTBellHop

Well-Known Member
Originally posted by Dizknee_Phreek
and no, DogsRule...you don't have to remind us that Pooh has longer lines than Toad...i don't know about anyone else, but that fact doesn't change my opinion that Pooh isn't the best Disney attraction i've ever been on. it's by far not the worst, but certainly not the best.

From Disney's standpoint, going from an attraction with five minute lines to a Fastpass attraction with 50 minute lines is an improvement. I never said it was the best Disney ride. It is no e-ride, but it is, as the general public feels, better than Toad. You may dissagree, which is fine--but from Disney's standpoint, they have improved the park with that replacement. That is why you will be seeing Pooh at Disneyland next month (soft opening).
 

madape89

New Member
I agree that EPCOT should always be evolving to reflect new technologies, and I love the Test Track attraction, but I would hope that they don't completely do away with several of the original-type attractions such as Universe of Energy (which was given a great new twist without changing the basis of the attraction) or Spaceship Earth. To me, putting in a bunch of "thrill rides" would take away from what is so unique about EPCOT.

P.S. I disagree that the "infotainment" available on TV is hurting the park; to me, any educational documentary or tech-tv show pales in comparison to the incredibly original and entertaining way that Disney (and EPCOT in particular) present topics as wide ranging as energy, travel, and discovery.
 

MKCustodial

Well-Known Member
Originally posted by DogsRule!
Mr Toad was an old ride...it was time for a replacement. A drunk toad is not charismatic at all...I find Pooh much more appealing. Who would go to a Toad Character Breakfast? Toad was a movie teaching people not to drink and drive--that doesn't really belong in Fantasyland.

I don't remember him being a drunk driver... :lookaroun
 

kennyj29

Member
Mr. Toad

When we say old we mean that the characters were done on plaster board (or something like that). It was so totally stupid. Now if you ask my son, who is 21 years old, that was one of his favorite rides. We might go to Disneyland in 2005 and he hopes to see it still up there. It was so outdated, you can't compare it to COP or WOM etc, at least they have animatronics and it was much more enjoyable. If they had done animatronics on the characters in Toad it probably would have been a lot better. It really needed to be changed and the Pooh ride is so much better! It's an attraction in Fantasyland and to me, fantasyland (even though I love it) is more for the kids. They would love the Pooh attraction much more than Toad. Not even a contest. I just look at their faces on the Pooh ride and you can see their eyes light up! There is no other attraction in Fantasyland that they could have taken out except Mr. Toad. Peter Pan is always crowded. The only line that you walk on is Small World and they would never take that out. So, Mr. Toad was the only choice.
 

Pumbas Nakasak

Heading for the great escape.
Originally posted by MKCustodial
I don't remember him being a drunk driver... :lookaroun

I think you will find in the original stories (pre Disneyfication)he was. The girls have the book upstairs but im too lazy to get it:)
 

MKCustodial

Well-Known Member
Originally posted by happy snapper
I think you will find in the original stories (pre Disneyfication)he was. The girls have the book upstairs but im too lazy to get it:)

Thanks, Snapper! :wave:


Sure, Toad was cheap and cardboarded, Kenny. But ask your son, that's probably the main reason he loves it. ;) An AA Toad attraction wouldn't have the same flair...

But enough of this drift, the bear stays, the Toad went... We all got that.
 

WDWspider

New Member
I like the fact that DL still has the ride. It seems a lot more attractions are now at one or the other, which is great as long as they keep the ride somewhere... unlike 20,000 Leagues. But the Country Bears are gone from DL, but still at MK. Likewise with Swiss Family Treehouse and TTA. There is a Tiki Room and Diamond Horseshoe still at DL, but no longer at MK. I really like the splitting up, it makes both parks more unique.
 

ToTBellHop

Well-Known Member
Originally posted by spider-man
I like the fact that DL still has the ride. It seems a lot more attractions are now at one or the other, which is great as long as they keep the ride somewhere... unlike 20,000 Leagues. But the Country Bears are gone from DL, but still at MK. Likewise with Swiss Family Treehouse and TTA. There is a Tiki Room and Diamond Horseshoe still at DL, but no longer at MK. I really like the splitting up, it makes both parks more unique.

Definitely agree. One of the things I look forward to seeing at Disneyland next month (besides the obvious--Indy!) is the old attractions that are either no longer at wdw or which never came there (like Matterhorn, Roger Rabbit, Alice in Wonderland, Pinocchio, etc). It is good to keep the Magic Kingdoms at least slightly different.

By the way, did you ever wonder why Toad drives as he does? The entire movie has a DWI undertone (i.e. you drink and drive, you will go to hell and lose everything you own). Mr. Toad isn't naturally the way he is...
 

Raidermatt

Active Member
Ya' know, this Pooh discussion ties back into the discussion that started this whole thing....thrill rides and what the public wants.

The defenders of thrill rides at Epcot point to long lines at Test Track and say "See, people love it!"

Yet Pooh generates long lines over at MK. So people must love it too.

Apparently, what people want is something NEW, as that is just about the only thing these two attractions have in common.

(Side note, but before getting too excited about Test Track's long lines vs. some other rides, its probably important to take into account its capacity, as well as its "breakdown rate".)


Now, about "trends"....

People don't want to be educated while they are on vacation? This has been a criticism of Disney parks for decades, and its always been a load of bull. Entertainment must always be first and foremost, but people will accept and even welcome education as long as they are not beat over the head with it.

People want thrill rides? Sure, some people do. This has always been the case. But something else that has always been true is that families want to spend their vacation time together, as a family. This fact was a key inspiration behind Disneyland. But just because families want to be together does not mean they want to be bored. So Walt's goal was to create things that thrilled and excited, but did not exclude. Yes, there eventually were exceptions, but there was never a feeling that only physical thrills would excite people.

But you know what? It is HARD to thrill and excite people without resorting to physical thrills. It takes creativity, effort, focus, and a committment to the concept of true family entertainment. Whether Disney still has those qualities and is truly committed to these core concepts, is up to the individual to decide I guess.

There are very few who really think Epcot needs no changes. Its attendance has plummeted the last two years, and even Eisner commented on it (accidentally) when he referred to the "revitilization of Epcot" on the earnings call a couple of weeks ago. He quickly corrected his slip, but the meaning was clear. Epcot DOES need revitilization.

But it also needs to stay true to the concept of whole-Family entertainment, with an eye towards showing people what the future can be. That doesn't mean SE should not change, or that NO thrill rides should be built. But there needs to be a balance in what is built, and based on what has been built, and what is rumored to be coming, that balance is being abandoned. If that "trend" continues, Disney may find that families who wanted to spend their vacations together find some other place to go, and if they do, they'll take their large discretionary spending allowances with them. In fact, one can make an argument that the attendance woes are being caused by more than just the economy and the spector of terrorism.
 

WDWspider

New Member
Originally posted by JRead
"Apparently, what people want is something NEW"

Then how would you explain DCA's failure?

or both of the Journey reincarnations.

Not to mention that the people riding Pooh are not the same people riding Test Track. Some are, but overall... no. They got a great new Thrill Ride and a great new kiddie ride. They also got a mediocore mini-land, two sorry dark rides, a improved but not great show remake, and some awesome parades. Popularity of an individual ride has little to do with any of the arguement points. This is more of that short term fix that we have discussed.

New-ness always attracts crowds though, even JIYI had lines for a while.
 

Raidermatt

Active Member
I was being somewhat facetious....sorry that didn't come across.

No, 'new' alone does not necessarily even create lines, much less drive attendance. The points in that statement were:

1. A long line is not necessarily an indicator that people want things just like that attraction.

2. "New" is ONE of the components people want when they go to theme parks. Not that they want everything to be changed, but they do want to see something new and exciting (note, exciting does not necessarily mean physical thrills) periodically, mixed in with the classic favorites.
 

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