Why doesn't the world's top theme park operator know how to operate theme parks?

[Deleted member 107043]

Has anybody had trouble with the video ads? The make it really difficult to scroll down to the bottom of a page. If they don't fix this soon, I may just have to find a different website.

Yes. It's horrible.

 

[Curious Constance]

Disneyland had that once, with the old northeast quadrant that included the Submarine Voyage, Monorail, Skyway, two separate Autopias, and the Motor Boat Cruise all intermingling over, under, and around one another. Sadly it's been chipped away through the years leaving us with just the Monorail (with 3 trains instead of 4), a single oversized Autopia, and the Subs with a slower-than-ever loading process

Similarly, throughout the park Disney has removed smaller things that once helped soak up crowds. Things like the Keel Boats, America Sings, Mission to Mars, Big Thunder Ranch, and countless small-scale attractions in Toontown have all been removed without ever being replaced in a meaningful way to the park's operational capacity. Disneyland has always thrived on its depth of smaller attractions to help fill out the day, but they've slowly been chipped away through the years. In isolation, no one of these losses is a dealbreaker, but in combination with one another they've made a big dent in the park's operational capacity

Similarly, that's why I find the Star Wars project so frustrating. Instead of having a variety of attractions of different scales to absorb crowds, we're getting 2 mega-attractions and vague promises of interactivity (that will surely only last a year or two after opening, once they realize the huge cost of one-on-one interactions and how much they clog the walkways). Regardless of personal preferences on theme, the planning-level decisions for this expansion are poor, and only act to reinforce the questionable path the park has been on for the last 2+ decades

I really think this Star Wars Mega Land is all in thanks and response to Harry Potter. Everyone acted as though something of this scale was the only response Disney could have to Universal. When in reality, they could have done any number of things and had people flocking.
I've always been a big proponent to the project, but the closer it gets the less excited I feel. The IP is really starting to drain on me, and I'm getting more and more opposed to it.
They could have had their Star Wars mega attraction, but fit in within some other confines in a land with varied things where the theme didn't just have to be about IP. That would have been so much better.
I want more things like New Orleans Square, Critter Country, Fantasyland, Adventureland, where you'll find IP, sure, but it's not shoved down your throat with no escape.

 

[Deleted member 107043]

I really think this Star Wars Mega Land is all in thanks and response to Harry Potter. Everyone acted as though something of this scale was the only response Disney could have to Universal. When in reality, they could have done any number of things and had people flocking.
I've always been a big proponent to the project, but the closer it gets the less excited I feel. The IP is really starting to drain on me, and I'm getting more and more opposed to it.
They could have had their Star Wars mega attraction, but fit in within some other confines in a land with varied things where the theme didn't just have to be about IP. That would have been so much better.
I want more things like New Orleans Square, Critter Country, Fantasyland, Adventureland, where you'll find IP, sure, but it's not shoved down your throat with no escape.

I kind of agree. At first I was disappointed that they didn't bulldoze and retheme Tomorrowland with Star Wars, but then I was so impressed by the immersiveness of SW:GE that I bought into it. Now I'm kind of over the hype and all the online video updates, so I'm less enthused. Maybe I need to take a break?

 

[Macro]

Has anybody had trouble with the video ads? The make it really difficult to scroll down to the bottom of a page. If they don't fix this soon, I may just have to find a different website.

Yea, this is the first site I've seen where it yanks the page to the top to make the video visible when it starts playing. It certainly aggressively demands your attention. Hopefully it's a bug or a misconfigured video player. But this certainly isn't the first time their video player has behaved like that.

 

[jmuboy]

Remember that if Disney redevelops the area, and increases guest capacity, then the Fire Marshall allowed in number goes up, and then Disney can just sell more tickets to match the new capacity.

How do you think Disney plans to get their investment back from Galaxy Edge, more guests will be allowed in once it opens, so expect the same level of crowds, just more people trying to go up and down Main Street each day....

To this point, I think more walkways can be built into the Autopia area. Increase the space to spread guests out and move them around but don't increase attractions to draw in more people.

I think the best new pathway would go from the Matterhorn fast pass distribution ( which may go away soon) and head north toward Smalk World. It would reconnect between the elevated parade viewing area and parade gate. This would create a 3rd path to /from the ToonTown and Small World area. It would also be a "and right hand "bypass path to Tomorrowland during parades to give another option to the existing Storybook Land bypass. The area may require some sections of Autopia track to be shrunk. Waterfalls, ponds, maybe even the old Motor Boat Dock might all have to be modified. But if the area looks as good as the new Big Thunder Trail in the end then it's a win for DL. This path would also release strain on walkways in this area when / if Toontown is removed or modified for new FL attractions like Frozen. Imagine the gridlock at parade time with a Frozen ride in this corner of the park with out more walking space. Then image it at parade time.

 

[MisterPenguin]

Has anybody had trouble with the video ads? The make it really difficult to scroll down to the bottom of a page. If they don't fix this soon, I may just have to find a different website.

Yes. It's horrible.

Yea, this is the first site I've seen where it yanks the page to the top to make the video visible when it starts playing. It certainly aggressively demands your attention. Hopefully it's a bug or a misconfigured video player. But this certainly isn't the first time their video player has behaved like that.

There's a forum for that in which you will get the mods' attention: https://forums.wdwmagic.com/forums/forum-help-announcements.131/

 

[Darkbeer1]

How is Knott’s? We are platinum passholders to CF.. never went to any other parks but our local one in 2017 . Already renewed platinum again, determined to hit at least 2 next year! I’ve been curious about Knotts Berry Farm looks to be the most different out of the bunch.

Knott's Berry Farm is America's First Theme Park, and Family owned and operated until some financial issues had them sell to Cedar Fair. (Disney looked at the purchase, but lost out to Cedar Fair, which promised to keep the park as Knott's and some attractions). Most of Cedar Fair's parks have come from Purchases of existing parks, mainly the Paramount Parks. I have been to most of them, Canada Wonderland has the highest day attendance and is quite good. (But operates the least amount of days a year due to weather issues.) And of course the first park, Cedar Point is a classic and amazing.

Going back to Knott's, it started off due to how popular Mrs. Knott's Chicken Dinner Restaurant became (folks stood in line for hours just to eat there. So Mr. Knott built a Ghost Town to entertain those waiting and make some extra money. So no rides yet. It wasn't until Bud Hurlbut, a wonderful man I knew, and have a photo of his that was featured in his working office in my office. Anyway, Bud built and designed amusement rides and trains, and made a deal with Walter Knott to build some attractions, and share the ticket revenue, so this is where the Mine Train Ride came from. The Log Ride was the first one ever designed (Bud built another one for Six Flags over Texas, which opened first). But every theme/Amusement park, including Disney owed a debt of gratitude to the inventor of the ride.

Walt Disney and some of his staff spent a lot of time in the parks, studying things like queue design, general traffic control and the rides themselves. So a lot of Knott's has influenced Disneyland, and in return, the Knott family took some of Disneyland's ideas and brought them to their Park. To this day, you can find things featured at Disneyland at one time. Things like the Glass Blower, the blacksmith shop and much more, and why it has a different feel than the rest of Cedar Fair. (The Peanuts Character rights were owned by the Knott's Family, and brought to the other Cedar Fair parks. The Knott's Family a few decades ago started to build roller coasters to differentiate itself from Disneyland, and which continues today. So you have a lot of unique things. For example, Mystery Lodge was built for the Vancouver World's Fair and brought to Knott's after the fair ended. Recently, Knott's has focused once again on the family element and entertainment.

It is clearly worth a visit, especially with the pass. Enjoy the park and its history, pan for gold, eat at Mrs. Knott's (located outside the park) And yes, ride the Roller Coasters. Hopefully the new coaster, HangTime is open.

One unique thing, they have a church on property....

 

[mickEblu]

To this point, I think more walkways can be built into the Autopia area. Increase the space to spread guests out and move them around but don't increase attractions to draw in more people.

I think the best new pathway would go from the Matterhorn fast pass distribution ( which may go away soon) and head north toward Smalk World. It would reconnect between the elevated parade viewing area and parade gate. This would create a 3rd path to /from the ToonTown and Small World area. It would also be a "and right hand "bypass path to Tomorrowland during parades to give another option to the existing Storybook Land bypass. The area may require some sections of Autopia track to be shrunk. Waterfalls, ponds, maybe even the old Motor Boat Dock might all have to be modified. But if the area looks as good as the new Big Thunder Trail in the end then it's a win for DL. This path would also release strain on walkways in this area when / if Toontown is removed or modified for new FL attractions like Frozen. Imagine the gridlock at parade time with a Frozen ride in this corner of the park with out more walking space. Then image it at parade time.

Matterhorn FPs may be going away? Do tell.

 

[21stamps]

Knott's Berry Farm is America's First Theme Park, and Family owned and operated until some financial issues had them sell to Cedar Fair. (Disney looked at the purchase, but lost out to Cedar Fair, which promised to keep the park as Knott's and some attractions). Most of Cedar Fair's parks have come from Purchases of existing parks, mainly the Paramount Parks. I have been to most of them, Canada Wonderland has the highest day attendance and is quite good. (But operates the least amount of days a year due to weather issues.) And of course the first park, Cedar Point is a classic and amazing.

Going back to Knott's, it started off due to how popular Mrs. Knott's Chicken Dinner Restaurant became (folks stood in line for hours just to eat there. So Mr. Knott built a Ghost Town to entertain those waiting and make some extra money. So no rides yet. It wasn't until Bud Hurlbut, a wonderful man I knew, and have a photo of his that was featured in his working office in my office. Anyway, Bud built and designed amusement rides and trains, and made a deal with Walter Knott to build some attractions, and share the ticket revenue, so this is where the Mine Train Ride came from. The Log Ride was the first one ever designed (Bud built another one for Six Flags over Texas, which opened first). But every theme/Amusement park, including Disney owed a debt of gratitude to the inventor of the ride.

Walt Disney and some of his staff spent a lot of time in the parks, studying things like queue design, general traffic control and the rides themselves. So a lot of Knott's has influenced Disneyland, and in return, the Knott family took some of Disneyland's ideas and brought them to their Park. To this day, you can find things featured at Disneyland at one time. Things like the Glass Blower, the blacksmith shop and much more, and why it has a different feel than the rest of Cedar Fair. (The Peanuts Character rights were owned by the Knott's Family, and brought to the other Cedar Fair parks. The Knott's Family a few decades ago started to build roller coasters to differentiate itself from Disneyland, and which continues today. So you have a lot of unique things. For example, Mystery Lodge was built for the Vancouver World's Fair and brought to Knott's after the fair ended. Recently, Knott's has focused once again on the family element and entertainment.

It is clearly worth a visit, especially with the pass. Enjoy the park and its history, pan for gold, eat at Mrs. Knott's (located outside the park) And yes, ride the Roller Coasters. Hopefully the new coaster, HangTime is open.

One unique thing, they have a church on property....

I know that Matt Ouimet has tried to stay true to each regional park, didn’t know the full backstory of Knott’s. Thanks for the info! The park sounds charming.

 

[Travel Junkie]

I'll never be convinced that FP is to blame entirely (not that you said it was). Taking away FP might help, but the only effective way to control crowding anywhere is to limit how many people are allowed admittance. It's mind boggling to think that each year twice as many people visit DL Park today compared to the early 80s. Let that settle in for a minute. Imagine how much more enjoyable a day at the park would be if half the people were there.

It's hardly a casual coincidence that a 60 year old theme park continues to draw enormous crowds daily almost year-round. Disney has intentionally created this situation, evidence that making guest well-being and comfort isn't a top priority.

I don't think FP is the problem. I think FP exacerbates an existing problem of overcrowding. Anyone who holds a FP is in two places at once. In a virtual line and somewhere else in the park.

The digital touch points have made things worse. HMH was always an issue, but much worse this year because of the digital touch points at the FP entrance. There is now a long line just to scan your ticket to enter the FP line. I've seen it stretch all the way to the HM exit near the Splash extended queue entrance. You have all of these lines spilling into the pathways all over the park creating huge bottlenecks.

 

[mickEblu]

I don't think FP is the problem. I think FP exacerbates an existing problem of overcrowding. Anyone who holds a FP is in two places at once. In a virtual line and somewhere else in the park.

The digital touch points have made things worse. HMH was always an issue, but much worse this year because of the digital touch points at the FP entrance. There is now a long line just to scan your ticket to enter the FP line. I've seen it stretch all the way to the HM exit near the Splash extended queue entrance. You have all of these lines spilling into the pathways all over the park creating huge bottlenecks.

Magic band time. Which they should have just done in the first place.

The change was handled poorly if you ask me. You have paper FPs which have been used for years and then all of sudden they add MaxPass (for a charge) but at the same time STILL offer the free paper FPs. But wait there's more, the paper FPs were made into "reminders" and instead of getting to the CM and handing them your FP, you're scanning it. Wait a minute- no you re not. You now have to dig your park ticket out of your wallet and scan those (sometime twice). So now you have to keep track of your paper FP reminder and your AP/ ticket.

I work in change management and saw these issues coming from a mile away. Not that the average user is too dumb to figure it out but it's just too many changes at once. Plus you have to consider environment. You re at a theme park, your kids throwing a tantrum, you re holding popcorn and a bubbler. The focus isn't there. I would imagine APs should get it pretty quickly but it ll take longer for casual guests and tourists to catch on. This whole thing kind of seems like an interim solution. I think the paper FP reminders will/ should be phased out quickly. The "paper" FP Stations can become reservation stations with signs saying to claim FP with your park ticket at the attractions. That would stop the confusion of guests trying to scan their paper FPs. There is no reason the "reminder time" can't be viewed on the Disneyland application. And cmon who doesn't have a smart phone? Even if one does not there is a good chance they are part of a party that does have one. Then lastly just bring on magic bands so we don't have to fish for our park tickets all day long.

Of course their long term strategy might just be to phase out free FPs entirely.

 

[Deleted member 107043]

Magic band time. Which they should have just done in the first place.

 

[mickEblu]

LOL

 

[No Name]

I think reserving fastpasses in advance is a poor development, but the MagicBand itself is convenient for the guest and provides great data for the company.

Great data that I'm not sure the company uses. They know where everyone goes and what everyone does, and yet have they been making changes based on that? If I were in charge, I'd have a large team of people analyzing useful information, then doing three things with it.
1) Making major operational changes so that nightmares as describes by the OP can be avoided.
2) Figuring out how to get people to spend more without it feeling forced.
3) Creating unbelievable memories. When your daughter meets her favorite princess for the first time, or first time in a while, said princess exclaims, "Emily! I'm so glad you came back to visit!" You're not a random person in a sea of millions anymore.

There's so much untapped potential. Over the past year or two, they've set up a lot of simple things, like having the hitchhiking ghosts tell you they'll follow you home... to Chicago, Illinois! But little that really takes it to the next level.

So point is, I think collecting and utilizing information is key.

 

[mickEblu]

I think reserving fastpasses in advance is a poor development, but the MagicBand itself is convenient for the guest and provides great data for the company.

Yea good point. I don't want the reservation system to come to DLR with magic bands. Just the Device and convenience it brings for getting FPs scanned. If they want to build the infrastructure for stores/ restaurants and resort wide that would be great too but the attractions would be a great start.

 

[George Lucas on a Bench]

Fastpass just doesn't work for Disneyland. It's dodgy even at WDW, where they have more space to contain additional lines without disrupting walkways, for instance. They can also do questionable stupid things such as reserving an entire side of Space Mountain for Fastpass. You can't really do that at DL. Things are bad enough when the line for the Mint Julep Bar has a pole in the middle of it and snakes out into a narrow walkway that's literally the only way to get through an awkwardly designed area. When The Haunted Mansion's lengthy waiting area can no longer contain the line when it's the classic version, it's time to just start pricing everyone out. It's for the best.

What we can do is design a special Annual Passholder entrance with an escalator to nowhere. That should thin out their numbers until they catch on.

 

[mickEblu]

I guess after thinking about it what's bothersome about MaxPass is that they are depriving guests of convenience for something that isn't even tangible and costs little to nothing for Disney. Although these days I guess extra functionality being added to a free application would be considered tangible. Then of course there is the issue that if everyone had MaxPass it wouldn't really work. But I'm not sure how true that is either since free paper FPs are still offered. I don't know. I don't have the data but depriving guests of this convenience just seems greedy. I mean I just dropped $ on two Signature APs and I have to buy MaxPass as an add on.

 

[Deleted member 107043]

I guess after thinking about it what's bothersome about MaxPass is that they are depriving guests of convenience for something that isn't even tangible and costs little to nothing for Disney. Although these days I guess extra functionality being added to a free application would be considered tangible. Then of course there is the issue that if everyone had MaxPass it wouldn't really work. But I'm not sure how true that is either since free paper FPs are still offered. I don't know. I don't have the data but depriving guests of this convenience just seems greedy. I mean I just dropped $ on two Signature APs and I have to buy MaxPass as an add on.

It's the upcharge that gets me, especially when SDL offers it for free and MM+ at WDW is free.

 

[Travel Junkie]

Magic band time. Which they should have just done in the first place.

The change was handled poorly if you ask me. You have paper FPs which have been used for years and then all of sudden they add MaxPass (for a charge) but at the same time STILL offer the free paper FPs. But wait there's more, the paper FPs were made into "reminders" and instead of getting to the CM and handing them yor FP, you're scanning it. Wait a minute- no you re not. You now have to dig your park ticket out of your wallet and scan those (sometime twice). So now you have to keep track of your paper FP reminder and your AP/ ticket.

I work in change management and saw these issues coming from a mile away. Not that the average user is too dumb to figure it out but it's just too many changes at once. Plus you have to consider environment. You re at a theme park, your kids throwing a tantrum, you re holding popcorn and a bubbler. The focus isn't there. I would imagine APs should get it pretty quickly but it ll take longer for casual guests and tourists to catch on. This whole thing kind of seems like an interim solution. I think the paper FP reminders will/ should be phased out quickly. The "paper" FP Stations can become reservation stations with signs saying to claim FP with your park ticket at the attractions. That would stop the confusion of guests trying to scan their paper FPs. There is no reason the "reminder time" can't be viewed on the Disneyland application. And cmon who doesn't have a smart phone? Even if one does not there is a good chance they are part of a party that does have one. Then lastly just bring on magic bands so we don't have to fish for our park tickets all day long.

Of course their long term strategy might just be to phase out free FPs entirely.

I agree the implementation at DLR has been bad, but MagicBand is not any better. In practice I see the backup at the FP entrance to be just as long at WDW. You wouldn't believe how many people don't get the concept of scanning a band, admission ticket or whatever. I've waited 10 minutes at WDW just to scan into the attraction on a slow day. And this was recently where MB's have been around for a while.

I agree free FP is going away. Probably by the time Galaxy's Edge opens.

 

[Phroobar]

If they got rid of free FP and made MaxPass $80 a day per person, would that help crowding because people would be forced in to stand by lines? Would people pay anything for MaxPass like they do for APs? I don't know why they can't just enforce a reasonable maximum attendance capacity.