Why Disneyland’s $1 billion Star Wars land isn’t a bust despite flat attendance - OCR/SCNG

tirian

Well-Known Member
Not happy to hear a lot of people lost their jobs but not surprising at all. Also, is it really all the imagineers faults or just the few in charge like Trowbridge? I imagine the rest of them are mostly taking orders.

I knew things were bad when a few months after the land opened Trowbridge was point blank asking the audience where he was speaking if they liked “being part of the story.” It was the way he asked it where you could see he was just genuinely confused because he did not get reaction he was expecting for SWL. Of course that always makes me laugh because he thinks that CMs telling us “bright suns” makes us feel that we are part of some story. Not realizing that for a guests to get to GE they have to walk past 3 lands that are 100x more immersive and full of life.
The rumors are true and it was Kennedy’s fault. Period. But this is typical of large corporations: fire the talent and protect the execs. The big question is how much longer she can protect herself from her own bad decisions.
 

TP2000

Well-Known Member
You would have entered a space port that was like a rundown, silent, Greyhound bus station and taken a rusty, rickety shuttle to an unknown barren planet where your shuttle is late, has to sit out on the tarmac for an extra hour, and then they lose your luggage - all for immersion!

And then in the exit gift shop Ky'le From Tustin would ask you "Are you an Annual Passholder?" before he gave you the 10% discount on the Made In China hunk of plastic you absolutely can't live without. Disneyland is Essential! :rolleyes:
 

tirian

Well-Known Member
I wonder if guest found the rides in Star Wars average? It great fun but nothing special I found with my friends and coworkers.

They like the land more than the attraction offered. That was their opinion overall.
I’ve been shocked—yes, shocked—to find my friends and family have the same opinion. I dislike the overall land, but I also give credit where it’s due, and I think ROTR is groundbreaking for an American attraction.

But I’m a theme park geek. My friends and family who aren’t in the fandom are simply disappointed the land offers just two rides based on their least favorite movies. The tech behind ROTR doesn’t matter to them. The lack of Vader, Leia, Luke, Hans, etc. is all they notice. That has surprised me more than the typical fan reaction.
 

mickEblu

Well-Known Member
The rumors are true and it was Kennedy’s fault. Period. But this is typical of large corporations: fire the talent and protect the execs. The big question is how much longer she can protect herself from her own bad decisions.

I figured that she probably deserved some of the blame but who was the creative lead on this project? Who was making the creative decisions? Trowbridge and Kennedy?
 

mickEblu

Well-Known Member
I’ve been shocked—yes, shocked—to find my friends and family have the same opinion. I dislike the overall land, but I also give credit where it’s due, and I think ROTR is groundbreaking for an American attraction.

But I’m a theme park geek. My friends and family who aren’t in the fandom are simply disappointed the land offers just two rides based on their least favorite movies. The tech behind ROTR doesn’t matter to them. The lack of Vader, Leia, Luke, Hans, etc. is all they notice. That has surprised me more than the typical fan reaction.

ROTR is weird for me. I agree that in some ways it’s groundbreaking and yet I don’t find it to be very much fun.
 

truecoat

Well-Known Member
It's fascinating how the TV culture has changed.

I recently had my nephew, a 20something Stanford student staying with me here in the beach house. He loved watching a YouTube channel that features... a guy who grinds up stumps and overgrown hedges in the South. The guy puts his 4K GoPro on the top of his tractor and creates 30 minute long YouTube videos of how he grinds up overgrown lots. And a Stanford Grad Student 3,000 miles away watches it religously.

In my day we watched network TV during Prime Time, including the mandatory viewing of 30 second long commercials for Chevrolet and Tide and Rice-A-Roni and Braniff. The kids today don't do that. Not even close.

Disney and Lucasfilm is now competing for eyeballs and clicks against a guy strapping a GoPro to his tractor in North Carolina. The execs in Burbank must know this by now, and this must terrify them.

Upstate Brush Control? I've watched some of their videos myself.
 

tirian

Well-Known Member
I figured that she probably deserved some of the blame but who was the creative lead on this project? Who was making the creative decisions? Trowbridge and Kennedy?
Rumor alert: I’m referring to the rumors that it was designed as general SW, and Kennedy made the call to focus only on a locked time period from her movies—which she expected to be more popular than the originals that had lasted decades! The hubris is strong in this one.

When I first heard those rumors, I dismissed them as fanboy wishes. Then I heard from some old coworkers and now believe that’s exactly what happened. So IMHO, the creative blame falls on both Trowbridge and Kennedy.
 

Phroobar

Well-Known Member
Rumor alert: I’m referring to the rumors that it was designed as general SW, and Kennedy made the call to focus only on a locked time period from her movies—which she expected to be more popular than the originals that had lasted decades! The hubris is strong in this one.

When I first heard those rumors, I dismissed them as fanboy wishes. Then I heard from some old coworkers and now believe that’s exactly what happened. So IMHO, the creative blame falls on both Trowbridge and Kennedy.
The resort bus drivers are a wealth of insider information.
 

DanielBB8

Well-Known Member
Rumor alert: I’m referring to the rumors that it was designed as general SW, and Kennedy made the call to focus only on a locked time period from her movies—which she expected to be more popular than the originals that had lasted decades! The hubris is strong in this one.

When I first heard those rumors, I dismissed them as fanboy wishes. Then I heard from some old coworkers and now believe that’s exactly what happened. So IMHO, the creative blame falls on both Trowbridge and Kennedy.
The buck stops with Iger. He claimed credit for turning Star Wars Land into Batuu.
 

FerretAfros

Well-Known Member
It’s astonishing how over 30 years ago the Imagineers who created Star Tours inherently understood all of this and made an incredibly fun, exciting, and joyful celebration of everything “Star Wars”.

It is almost hard to fathom that the same company with significantly more funding and technology at their disposal created the lifeless, boring, depressing mess of Batuu.

It just shows you either “get it” or you don’t. Sadly, WDI does not.
It's also worth noting that the original Star Tours did all this while largely avoiding known characters and locations from the Star Wars universe. Other than a quick view of the Star Destroyer, some occasional beeps and boops from R2-D2 on the roof, and the Death Star trench run at the end, Star Tours was a new experience to new locations with new characters. Things were reminiscent of what you already knew, but they were new to the attraction. And it worked, not in spite of it, but because of it.

While there is plenty of online chatter that setting the new land in an unfamiliar location was a mistake, I think that was actually one of the few wise high-level decisions that was made during the project. Having a new setting removes the barrier for entry for guests who may not be familiar with the details of the IP, while also reaping the benefits of easy recognition and a built-in fan base.

Where it fails, however is in the execution of that new location. Instead of being an open-ended jumping-off point for a new series of adventures, it's locked into an overly serious and overly specific backstory and timeline that limits its potential for exploration, interpretation, and storylines. It takes something that should be fun and open to interpretation, and turns it into a deathly serious chore to get all of the facts right. Instead of living your own adventure in the Star Wars universe, you're merely an extra in the background of someone else's story.

At the highest level, they made a smart decision to base the land on a new location, so they could pick and choose what experiences and elements to include. At the most detailed level, they did a good job of making everything feel like it belongs in the world. However, all those upper/middle-level decisions in between really dragged the land down. The war-torn aesthetic, the oversized scale for the park, the imposing buildings, the character timeline, the tortured backstories, and more all worked against the land meeting expectations.
I understand; many of them called it a “one-and-done.” They would rather ride POTC or TOT multiple times. Maybe guests are getting tired of rides with heavy storylines versus the cocktail parties Walt preferred.
As much as WDI likes to claim that everything they do is based on "storytelling," themed entertainment has always been its strongest when it simply tries to evoke a mood, atmosphere, or emotion, and avoids trying to tell a linear story. Similar to how it's difficult to show an internal dialogue on film, linear stories just don't really work well for themed entertainment; the message needs to fit the medium.

While Avatar had a pretty flimsy plot, it made up for it in world-building and spectacle; the theme park land is better for it, as it allowed the designers to focus on the moody environment without feeling like they needed to include specific characters. Even the rides themselves manage to avoid linear stories (though FOP's pre-show tries its hardest to force one on you), which gives them the sort of timeless appeal that classic repeatable attractions have.

Clearly modern Imagineers have the talent and resources to make good experiences. However, they too often tie themselves to things that ultimately work against a quality theme park experience. As a result, we get countless attractions with the same tired story lines ("Something goes horribly wrong!", "Come along, recruits!", etc.) that never fully connect with the audience as intended.
 

el_super

Well-Known Member
Clearly modern Imagineers have the talent and resources to make good experiences. However, they too often tie themselves to things that ultimately work against a quality theme park experience. As a result, we get countless attractions with the same tired story lines ("Something goes horribly wrong!", "Come along, recruits!", etc.) that never fully connect with the audience as intended.

Even though I disagree with this, this has been the only cohesive argument I've read about faults with Batuu.

I think the problems you're painting are more generally related to Star Wars as a franchise and not to Imagineering. Imagineering created a pretty accurate representation of a wartorn outpost because thats the general setting of Star Wars. It seems even more true reading this thread, that what the fans wanted is not the product that WDI offers: storytelling. They expected just placemaking on the moat basic level.

I think if Batuu does end up being a failure (and I certainly dont think it will), it will be the fault of the franchise as a whole just being played out, and not WDI.
 

truecoat

Well-Known Member
Even though I disagree with this, this has been the only cohesive argument I've read about faults with Batuu.

I think the problems you're painting are more generally related to Star Wars as a franchise and not to Imagineering. Imagineering created a pretty accurate representation of a wartorn outpost because thats the general setting of Star Wars. It seems even more true reading this thread, that what the fans wanted is not the product that WDI offers: storytelling. They expected just placemaking on the moat basic level.

I think if Batuu does end up being a failure (and I certainly dont think it will), it will be the fault of the franchise as a whole just being played out, and not WDI.

It's an easy fix imho. Bring in classic characters, make MF target run fight in a space battle and get Darth Vader into ROTR.
 

mickEblu

Well-Known Member
I think if Batuu does end up being a failure (and I certainly dont think it will), it will be the fault of the franchise as a whole just being played out, and not WDI.

No. It will be because they were more concerned making it hyper real than fun. And Chapek. Doesn’t the Rey and Chewie staring at a ship show tell you all you need to know?
 
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el_super

Well-Known Member
I'll admit that's an interesting premise for an argument. Can you provide any examples?

The earliest one that gets quoted frequently was a 1958 review published in The National:

As in the Disney movies, the whole world, the universe, and all man’s striving for dominion over self and nature, have been reduced to a sickening blend of cheap formulas packaged to sell. Romance, Adventure, Fantasy, Science are ballyhooed and marketed: life is bright-colored, clean, cute, titivating, safe, mediocre, inoffensive to the lowest common denominator, and somehow poignantly inhuman

It's a theme that gets repeated for decades: That Disney presents a "fake" version of the existing reality. That its watered down experiences made for mass consumption, not for deep exploration of ideas.

OR, you have a third camp: the critical fan. Someone that can have a great time at the parks, suspending their disbelief, and can simultaneoulsly also see the flaws inherent in certain areas.

What do you think are some of the flaws of New Orleans Square?
 

Mac Tonight

Well-Known Member
It's an easy fix imho. Bring in classic characters, make MF target run fight in a space battle and get Darth Vader into ROTR.
The single fact that all classic SW characters (minus Chewie) are missing from the land just shows how short-sighted it's design and execution are. And "time-locking" it to a specific point in the movie canon was an even worse idea.
 

DanielBB8

Well-Known Member
Star Wars Lands are not war torn. They are desolate or pristine. In every land in the first 6 movies, they are always set in an unfamiliar land that the Empire has not taken or gone to war with. The war takes place in space or just blown up.
 

el_super

Well-Known Member
It's an easy fix imho. Bring in classic characters, make MF target run fight in a space battle and get Darth Vader into ROTR.

How does bringing in the classic characters do anything to change the perception of Batuu? If anything Batuu should be able to exist without any characters. Since the classic characters have been in Tomorrowland for over a decade, moving them to another part of the park doesnt add anything to the experience at all.

When I talk about inconsistency in criticism, this is exhibit A. This seems like nothing more than trying to pull Batuu into the middle of an already existing culture war between old and new inside the existing fan community. Batuu would be better for staying out of it, and keeping all the old characters dead.
 

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