Why Disneyland’s $1 billion Star Wars land isn’t a bust despite flat attendance - OCR/SCNG

Mac Tonight

Well-Known Member
Unless you really believe that people are unable to make emotional connections to theme park lands, and original concepts will never be as valuable as IPs, then you have to believe that people can eventually make a connection to Batuu.

There is something just very un-Disney about the idea that what fans really wanted was just a complete recreation of what they saw from the movie with a roller coaster built on top.
The reason so many have an emotional connection to say, the early years of Epcot's Future World (an original concept), is because it was full of extremely well executed attractions and environments and created within the guests the unique feeling of never having experienced anything like it before (or since). It left guests eager to return and explore further.

The reason so many have an emotional connection to The Wizarding World of Harry Potter is because they literally took places and objects from the book series and replicated them into real, tangible environments and experiences that visitors had longed to realize. It left guests eager to return and explore further.

The reason so many do not have an emotional connection to Batuu (and SWL in general) is because people who went in expecting familiar Star Wars elements were sufficiently let down by the lack thereof. And furthermore, the people who were not expecting familiar Star Wars elements were let down because what they did receive was boring and beige and uninspiring. It left guests not as eager to return and explore further, and forced Disney marketing execs to practically beg people to visit.
 

el_super

Well-Known Member
The reason so many have an emotional connection to say, the early years of Epcot's Future World (an original concept), is because it was full of extremely well executed attractions and environments and created within the guests the unique feeling of never having experienced anything like it before (or since). It left guests eager to return and explore further.

People can feel that way about Batuu as well. How is Batuu really any different from Mickey's Toontown or even New Orleans Square?

The reason so many do not have an emotional connection to Batuu (and SWL in general) is because people who went in expecting familiar Star Wars elements were sufficiently let down by the lack thereof.

So, you think people are disappointed in New Orleans Square because there's no drinking or Mardi Gras? If you've done enough reading about the parks, you should know that the criticism of the parks offering a "fake" and/or "plastic" version of reality has been around for a really long time, so it seems curious that within the fandom, a group that generally would have already overlooked those criticisms in accepting the rest of the park, would turn around and levy it against something they just don't like. It feels rather inconsistent.

If the problem were really the expectations of Star Wars elements, then they could just take the name Star Wars off the land and it would be a smashing success.
 

truecoat

Well-Known Member
The Mandolorian came from Jon Faveraux after Iger asked him if he had ideas for Star Wars while he was working on the live-action Disney remakes. As part of Iger side-stepping Kennedy. Similar to how he got Fiege involved in developing a film.

While Kennedy is still involved in these projects, they aren't her projects and apparently there's been a lot of friction. Her being kicked off the set of The Mandolorian and the creative team wanting her to have nothing to do with it.

I'm not sure how much they spent making The Mandolorian but it was better than all the new movies and some of the old ones as well.
 

Mac Tonight

Well-Known Member
People can feel that way about Batuu as well. How is Batuu really any different from Mickey's Toontown or even New Orleans Square?



So, you think people are disappointed in New Orleans Square because there's no drinking or Mardi Gras? If you've done enough reading about the parks, you should know that the criticism of the parks offering a "fake" and/or "plastic" version of reality has been around for a really long time, so it seems curious that within the fandom, a group that generally would have already overlooked those criticisms in accepting the rest of the park, would turn around and levy it against something they just don't like. It feels rather inconsistent.

If the problem were really the expectations of Star Wars elements, then they could just take the name Star Wars off the land and it would be a smashing success.
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Oh boy...

How is Batuu really any different from Mickey's Toontown or even New Orleans Square?
Mickey's Toontown was designed to be a representation of Mickey and Friends and their homes. Not some made up other place like Bumblebee Land or Tortoise Village... which just so happens to exist in the same universe (because we said so).

As for NOS, frankly I don't see any comparison. New Orleans Square is based on a real place and the theming and decor match pretty well. It would be one thing to name it New Orleans Square and then just design a random industrial park with some mild tinsel strung around.

So, you think people are disappointed in New Orleans Square because there's no drinking or Mardi Gras?
Sure! They're probably the same people who got upset when the whole area wasn't destroyed by Hurricane Katrina... :rolleyes:

If the problem were really the expectations of Star Wars elements, then they could just take the name Star Wars off the land and it would be a smashing success.
Not even close. Take out every Star Wars element and Batuu would easily become the most boring area of the park. As it is, the Star Wars element is the only thing it has going for it. They just picked the wrong elements.
 

el_super

Well-Known Member
How is Batuu really any different from Mickey's Toontown or even New Orleans Square?
Mickey's Toontown was designed to be a representation of Mickey and Friends and their homes. Not some made up other place like Bumblebee Land or Tortoise Village... which just so happens to exist in the same universe (because we said so).

That wasn't the point though, the point was that there was an expectation of what Mickey's home should have been, but no one had actually seen it right? Maybe there were variations of it in multiple shorts over the years, but it wasn't a real place and to borrow from what you had said previously, it created that unique feeling of never having experienced anything like it before. The connections then to the buildings and places and settings of Toontown were all familiar, but not definitive. Guests had to make those emotional connections themselves and they did.

As for NOS, frankly I don't see any comparison. New Orleans Square is based on a real place and the theming and decor match pretty well. It would be one thing to name it New Orleans Square and then just design a random industrial park with some mild tinsel strung around.

The theme and decor of Batuu are designed to match the aesthetic of Star Wars, as defined by the very same people who make the films and are still producing Star Wars content. Batuu is no where close to being off from Star Wars as an industrial park, and I feel you are being slightly disingenuous with your comparison there. Just like New Orleans Square borrows a lot from actual distinct places and settings, but never fully commits, Batuu borrows elements from all areas of the Star Wars universe without being a complete clone of the original.

So the intent between the two was the same: borrow the elements, the design, and evoke the same feelings, without being a complete rip off of the original. If people are able to accept New Orleans Square for what it is, then why not Batuu?

Take out every Star Wars element and Batuu would easily become the most boring area of the park.

Not at all. The rockwork alone makes it the best themed area in all of Disneyland. The execution was top-notch.
 

Mac Tonight

Well-Known Member
That wasn't the point though, the point was that there was an expectation of what Mickey's home should have been, but no one had actually seen it right? Maybe there were variations of it in multiple shorts over the years, but it wasn't a real place and to borrow from what you had said previously, it created that unique feeling of never having experienced anything like it before. The connections then to the buildings and places and settings of Toontown were all familiar, but not definitive. Guests had to make those emotional connections themselves and they did.



The theme and decor of Batuu are designed to match the aesthetic of Star Wars, as defined by the very same people who make the films and are still producing Star Wars content. Batuu is no where close to being off from Star Wars as an industrial park, and I feel you are being slightly disingenuous with your comparison there. Just like New Orleans Square borrows a lot from actual distinct places and settings, but never fully commits, Batuu borrows elements from all areas of the Star Wars universe without being a complete clone of the original.

So the intent between the two was the same: borrow the elements, the design, and evoke the same feelings, without being a complete rip off of the original. If people are able to accept New Orleans Square for what it is, then why not Batuu?



Not at all. The rockwork alone makes it the best themed area in all of Disneyland. The execution was top-notch.
The rockwork alone makes it the best themed area in all of Disneyland. The execution was top-notch
No one is paying ticket prices to see fancy fake rock-work. Not when there are real mountains that can be explored nearby for free.

The connections then to the buildings and places and settings of Toontown were all familiar, but not definitive.
That's the whole point. The entire Star Wars universe is full of definitive elements. And the only ones they went with were a few ships and a few walk-around characters. With so much source material on hand, the decision to make up Batuu is just unnecessary and something no one asked for.

If people are able to accept New Orleans Square for what it is, then why not Batuu?
Because they're not the same. And because New Orleans Square actually fits thematically within the framework of Disneyland.
 

el_super

Well-Known Member
No one is paying ticket prices to see fancy fake rock-work. Not when there are real mountains that can be explored nearby for free.

This is a perfect example of that strange inconsistency I am seeing in these arguments. Somehow these arguments that have generally been levied against Disneyland for decades now, should only apply to Batuu, but not the rest of Disneyland? Why pay money to see a fake New Orleans when you can just go visit the real one...

That's the whole point. The entire Star Wars universe is full of definitive elements. And the only ones they went with were a few ships and a few walk-around characters. With so much source material on hand, the decision to make up Batuu is just unnecessary and something no one asked for.

They make up new worlds in the Star Wars universe all the time. In fact the idea that, within a galaxy of thousands of planets, they would only ever tell stories from the same three over and over, is far more ridiculous a premise than the idea of telling a story on a new world.

Because they're not the same. And because New Orleans Square actually fits thematically within the framework of Disneyland.

They're both themed lands in a theme park, so yeah, they are kind of the same. If really the only argument you can suggest (that makes some sense) is that people had a different expectation of what it should be, then time will fix that up, and in a few years it will be just as valued as any other themed land at Disneyland.
 

Mac Tonight

Well-Known Member
This is a perfect example of that strange inconsistency I am seeing in these arguments. Somehow these arguments that have generally been levied against Disneyland for decades now, should only apply to Batuu, but not the rest of Disneyland? Why pay money to see a fake New Orleans when you can just go visit the real one...



They make up new worlds in the Star Wars universe all the time. In fact the idea that, within a galaxy of thousands of planets, they would only ever tell stories from the same three over and over, is far more ridiculous a premise than the idea of telling a story on a new world.



They're both themed lands in a theme park, so yeah, they are kind of the same. If really the only argument you can suggest (that makes some sense) is that people had a different expectation of what it should be, then time will fix that up, and in a few years it will be just as valued as any other themed land at Disneyland.
Why pay money to see a fake New Orleans when you can just go visit the real one...
Because the real New Orleans doesn't have the Haunted Mansion or Pirates of the Caribbean... ?
And what are these vague "arguments that have been levied against Disneyland for decades now" that you're so hung up on? You seem to think there's a whole faction out there ready to burn down NOS because it's not "authentic" enough??

Look, clearly we can go back and forth about this probably until Disneyland eventually reopens, and it doesn't seem like we're gonna change each other's minds. You're more than free to enjoy Batuu for all it's worth, and I'm free to see it as 100% the wrong choice for Disneyland.
 

el_super

Well-Known Member
Why pay money to see a fake New Orleans when you can just go visit the real one...
Because the real New Orleans doesn't have the Haunted Mansion or Pirates of the Caribbean... ?
And what are these vague "arguments that have been levied against Disneyland for decades now" that you're so hung up on? You seem to think there's a whole faction out there ready to burn down NOS because it's not "authentic" enough??

There is, and there always will be a faction of people that think that Disney is fake and not worth the time. Disneyfication became an insult in the 1970s and 1980s (probably even earlier than that) to describe how the parks converted real life places and settings and changed them into something they were never meant to be in order to suit Disney's purpose. On an academic level, those arguments are fascinating.

The broader point though is that typically, the people who count themselves fans and those that count themselves as critics exist in two separate camps. That's why I find it strange/inconsistent to see an argument that Batuu isn't "real" enough of a Star Wars experience coming from someone who I am assuming so readily suspends belief for the other themed areas of Disneyland.

Look, clearly we can go back and forth about this probably until Disneyland eventually reopens, and it doesn't seem like we're gonna change each other's minds.

Agreed.
 

TP2000

Well-Known Member
There is something just very un-Disney about the idea that what fans really wanted was just a complete recreation of what they saw from the movie with a roller coaster built on top.

Yeah, because they tried that exact thing with Cars Land and it was such a flop? Who goes to Cars Land? Nobody! ;)

california_christmas_disney_anaheim_hdr_disneycaliforniaadventure_disneylandresort_carsland-724857.jpg!d


Face it, their entire Star Wars Land strategy and debut didn't turn out anything like they thought it would. It's not a complete disaster like Pixar Pier, but it was certainly no Cars Land. It was all supposed to go much, much differently than it did in 2019. Ahora!

The silver lining to a 6 to 8 month long unplanned Covid closure of the entire Resort is they now have a rare opportunity to try and relaunch the concept in 2021 without losing too much face.
 
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Mac Tonight

Well-Known Member
There is, and there always will be a faction of people that think that Disney is fake and not worth the time. Disneyfication became an insult in the 1970s and 1980s (probably even earlier than that) to describe how the parks converted real life places and settings and changed them into something they were never meant to be in order to suit Disney's purpose. On an academic level, those arguments are fascinating.

The broader point though is that typically, the people who count themselves fans and those that count themselves as critics exist in two separate camps. That's why I find it strange/inconsistent to see an argument that Batuu isn't "real" enough of a Star Wars experience coming from someone who I am assuming so readily suspends belief for the other themed areas of Disneyland.



Agreed.
There is, and there always will be a faction of people that think that Disney is fake and not worth the time.
I guess it's unclear to me what purpose those people have in this discussion. Since you and I are clearly not in that group.

...how the parks converted real life places and settings and changed them into something they were never meant to be in order to suit Disney's purpose.
I'll admit that's an interesting premise for an argument. Can you provide any examples?

...the people who count themselves fans and those that count themselves as critics exist in two separate camps.
OR, you have a third camp: the critical fan. Someone that can have a great time at the parks, suspending their disbelief, and can simultaneoulsly also see the flaws inherent in certain areas. Someone who can enjoy repeated trips on Haunted Mansion and Indiana Jones, while on the other hand be uninspired walking through the bombed-out slums of Batuu.
 

RobWDW1971

Well-Known Member
There is, and there always will be a faction of people that think that Disney is fake and not worth the time.
I guess it's unclear to me what purpose those people have in this discussion. Since you and I are clearly not in that group.

...how the parks converted real life places and settings and changed them into something they were never meant to be in order to suit Disney's purpose.
I'll admit that's an interesting premise for an argument. Can you provide any examples?

...the people who count themselves fans and those that count themselves as critics exist in two separate camps.
OR, you have a third camp: the critical fan. Someone that can have a great time at the parks, suspending their disbelief, and can simultaneoulsly also see the flaws inherent in certain areas. Someone who can enjoy repeated trips on Haunted Mansion and Indiana Jones, while on the other hand be uninspired walking through the bombed-out slums of Batuu.
Make that "bombed-out deserted slums" thank you very much!
 
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DanielBB8

Well-Known Member
I'm pretty sure those people that want to go to a authentic Star Wars Land will be disappointed with Batuu and wouldn't even bother going. They wouldn't go to Disneyland since nothing in there interests them at all unless that's not the reason. Applying consistency in the arguments like this makes no sense because people are not consistent. Everyone has their reasons to go, but for Star Wars fans, Batuu is an embarrassment that's enough for them to not desecrate their memory of Star Wars by going.
 

smooch

Well-Known Member
This is a perfect example of that strange inconsistency I am seeing in these arguments. Somehow these arguments that have generally been levied against Disneyland for decades now, should only apply to Batuu, but not the rest of Disneyland? Why pay money to see a fake New Orleans when you can just go visit the real one...



They make up new worlds in the Star Wars universe all the time. In fact the idea that, within a galaxy of thousands of planets, they would only ever tell stories from the same three over and over, is far more ridiculous a premise than the idea of telling a story on a new world.



They're both themed lands in a theme park, so yeah, they are kind of the same. If really the only argument you can suggest (that makes some sense) is that people had a different expectation of what it should be, then time will fix that up, and in a few years it will be just as valued as any other themed land at Disneyland.

The difference I don't think you're getting is that there is a pretty common consensus from these past few pages (including my own post about it) in that a land tied directly to an IP should be executed differently than a land created based on something like a location (Main St., New Orleans Square) or an idea (Adventureland, Fantasyland, Frontierland, Tomorrowland) because they are trying to execute different things. When you have a land that is directly based on a single IP there is a reason that IP is so beloved and you want to capture that. People have connections to the things they see in Star Wars, they don't have a connection to the idea of a war torn beaten down town, they have connections to the ones they've seen. Even if they didn't want to build a land that was a recreation of Mos Eisley or some other location in the movie they could have created a land that knows what it is (a theme park land, not an actual location within the universe) and incorporated multiple things that are from the movies. The land itself could be Batuu but they could've put the actual Mos Eisley Cantina in the land because that is what we recognize and love from the movies.

I'm not gonna argue the whole multiple area theme park land versus a single location hyper realistic decision, but I think you need to understand that they should have included things we actually know when we are referencing a specific IP. NOS knows its a theme park land and has entertainment and idealizations which create a fun experience, if they wanted you to actually believe you were in NOS they wouldn't add all the fun whimsical stuff that people enjoy like the performers and the pirate boat ride within a normal building. GE doesn't have any of that fun stuff, there are no shows of lightsaber fights (which were supposed to be included) and there's only 3 actual walkaround characters (Rey, Chewie, Kylo) and one made up character nobody knows about. The Millenium Falcon ride doesn't even have Han Solo, you know, the Falcon's owner, because it is supposed to take place after he died in the movies. They limit themselves in what they can do because of this weird obsession of the land being canon in the timeline, which was then immediately ruined because Kylo dies in TROS yet he's still here on Batuu. If it's gonna be in the timeline why set it between two of the movies on a planet we've never heard of in the slightest? The land doesn't do what a theme park land should do first which is give you a fun experience. In a more direct comparison Cars Land is an actual place from the movies but it understands it's a theme park land so they have the fun shows and a great E-Ticket Ride that doesn't have to pretend that it is something that actually happened in universe.
 

Mac Tonight

Well-Known Member
The difference I don't think you're getting is that there is a pretty common consensus from these past few pages (including my own post about it) in that a land tied directly to an IP should be executed differently than a land created based on something like a location (Main St., New Orleans Square) or an idea (Adventureland, Fantasyland, Frontierland, Tomorrowland) because they are trying to execute different things. When you have a land that is directly based on a single IP there is a reason that IP is so beloved and you want to capture that. People have connections to the things they see in Star Wars, they don't have a connection to the idea of a war torn beaten down town, they have connections to the ones they've seen. Even if they didn't want to build a land that was a recreation of Mos Eisley or some other location in the movie they could have created a land that knows what it is (a theme park land, not an actual location within the universe) and incorporated multiple things that are from the movies. The land itself could be Batuu but they could've put the actual Mos Eisley Cantina in the land because that is what we recognize and love from the movies.

I'm not gonna argue the whole multiple area theme park land versus a single location hyper realistic decision, but I think you need to understand that they should have included things we actually know when we are referencing a specific IP. NOS knows its a theme park land and has entertainment and idealizations which create a fun experience, if they wanted you to actually believe you were in NOS they wouldn't add all the fun whimsical stuff that people enjoy like the performers and the pirate boat ride within a normal building. GE doesn't have any of that fun stuff, there are no shows of lightsaber fights (which were supposed to be included) and there's only 3 actual walkaround characters (Rey, Chewie, Kylo) and one made up character nobody knows about. The Millenium Falcon ride doesn't even have Han Solo, you know, the Falcon's owner, because it is supposed to take place after he died in the movies. They limit themselves in what they can do because of this weird obsession of the land being canon in the timeline, which was then immediately ruined because Kylo dies in TROS yet he's still here on Batuu. If it's gonna be in the timeline why set it between two of the movies on a planet we've never heard of in the slightest? The land doesn't do what a theme park land should do first which is give you a fun experience. In a more direct comparison Cars Land is an actual place from the movies but it understands it's a theme park land so they have the fun shows and a great E-Ticket Ride that doesn't have to pretend that it is something that actually happened in universe.
giphy-downsized.gif
 

RobWDW1971

Well-Known Member
The difference I don't think you're getting is that there is a pretty common consensus from these past few pages (including my own post about it) in that a land tied directly to an IP should be executed differently than a land created based on something like a location (Main St., New Orleans Square) or an idea (Adventureland, Fantasyland, Frontierland, Tomorrowland) because they are trying to execute different things. When you have a land that is directly based on a single IP there is a reason that IP is so beloved and you want to capture that. People have connections to the things they see in Star Wars, they don't have a connection to the idea of a war torn beaten down town, they have connections to the ones they've seen. Even if they didn't want to build a land that was a recreation of Mos Eisley or some other location in the movie they could have created a land that knows what it is (a theme park land, not an actual location within the universe) and incorporated multiple things that are from the movies. The land itself could be Batuu but they could've put the actual Mos Eisley Cantina in the land because that is what we recognize and love from the movies.

I'm not gonna argue the whole multiple area theme park land versus a single location hyper realistic decision, but I think you need to understand that they should have included things we actually know when we are referencing a specific IP. NOS knows its a theme park land and has entertainment and idealizations which create a fun experience, if they wanted you to actually believe you were in NOS they wouldn't add all the fun whimsical stuff that people enjoy like the performers and the pirate boat ride within a normal building. GE doesn't have any of that fun stuff, there are no shows of lightsaber fights (which were supposed to be included) and there's only 3 actual walkaround characters (Rey, Chewie, Kylo) and one made up character nobody knows about. The Millenium Falcon ride doesn't even have Han Solo, you know, the Falcon's owner, because it is supposed to take place after he died in the movies. They limit themselves in what they can do because of this weird obsession of the land being canon in the timeline, which was then immediately ruined because Kylo dies in TROS yet he's still here on Batuu. If it's gonna be in the timeline why set it between two of the movies on a planet we've never heard of in the slightest? The land doesn't do what a theme park land should do first which is give you a fun experience. In a more direct comparison Cars Land is an actual place from the movies but it understands it's a theme park land so they have the fun shows and a great E-Ticket Ride that doesn't have to pretend that it is something that actually happened in universe.
It’s astonishing how over 30 years ago the Imagineers who created Star Tours inherently understood all of this and made an incredibly fun, exciting, and joyful celebration of everything “Star Wars”.

It is almost hard to fathom that the same company with significantly more funding and technology at their disposal created the lifeless, boring, depressing mess of Batuu.

It just shows you either “get it” or you don’t. Sadly, WDI does not.
 

Screamface

Well-Known Member
I'm not sure how much they spent making The Mandolorian but it was better than all the new movies and some of the old ones as well.

It's been reported that the season was about $100 million for the season or that it was $15 million an episode ($120mil for the season).

Which is up there for a TV show and seems expensive compared to the scale and scope what Game of Thrones was doing with a similar budget. Especially when they constantly talk about the cost saving of the VOID.
 

TP2000

Well-Known Member
It's been reported that the season was about $100 million for the season or that it was $15 million an episode ($120mil for the season).

Which is up there for a TV show and seems expensive compared to the scale and scope what Game of Thrones was doing with a similar budget. Especially when they constantly talk about the cost saving of the VOID.

It's fascinating how the TV culture has changed.

I recently had my nephew, a 20something Stanford student staying with me here in the beach house. He loved watching a YouTube channel that features... a guy who grinds up stumps and overgrown hedges in the South. The guy puts his 4K GoPro on the top of his tractor and creates 30 minute long YouTube videos of how he grinds up overgrown lots. And a Stanford Grad Student 3,000 miles away watches it religously.

In my day we watched network TV during Prime Time, including the mandatory viewing of 30 second long commercials for Chevrolet and Tide and Rice-A-Roni and Braniff. The kids today don't do that. Not even close.

Disney and Lucasfilm is now competing for eyeballs and clicks against a guy strapping a GoPro to his tractor in North Carolina. The execs in Burbank must know this by now, and this must terrify them.
 
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