Where in the World Isn't Bob Saget?

Songbird76

Songbird76

Well-Known Member
PUSH said:
We send home a family letter for each lesson to explain what their child is learning in math. I never had it explained to me that the 3 in 35 is representing 3 tens and is worth 30. If I did, it was not a focal point. It would have made math a lot easier had it been explained.

Another thing with "new math", is it's essentially the way people have learned to do math on their own. For example, making a ten to add. If you have 8 + 5, you take 2 from the 5 and give it to the 8 to make it a 10. Then you have 3 left from the 5. 10 + 3 = 13. It's a lot more efficient than starting at 8 and counting on 5 more. And you can do it mentally. It's just when kids are learning it, they need those steps shown visually. The visual representation with equations and pictures is also where parents often get confused.

You said your child's teacher said she used two different methods to teach reading. I would be interested to hear the ways she taught. The methods of teaching reading have shifted a lot in the past couple years. For the better. The old way was called the whole language approach, and it had kids rely on using pictures for clues and guessing based on the first sound and context in words. That's not how kids learn to read. Instead, we're shifting to an approach called the science of reading, which as it sounds, is all based on research and science of how the brain learns to read. I'm a huge nerd when it comes to reading instruction. I think it's fascinating.
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I grew up with what you'd call "old math" but it wasn't like you described at all. I learned to make sets of 10. 8+2, or 5+3+2, or 4+6, etc...and then you add how many sets of 10 there are, and however many you have, you put a zero behind it, and then if there are any leftover numbers, you tack that on in place of the zero. so if I have 3 sets of zero, and a leftover 2 that didn't go into a set, I have 32. And we learned to borrow, and carry numbers when adding and subtracting, etc. So we definitely learned the ones, tens, and hundreds places. What you described as new math sounds a lot more confusing to me. I'm not sure exactly what method my kids learned, but I do remember someone saying something about no longer using the borrow/carry method, but I don't remember whether that was here or in the states.

But I don't think learning is one size fits all. If your way works for you, that's great, but I don't think every person thinks the same way. I had problems with 2 things in math...negative numbers, and fractions. And in both cases, it took someone who WASN'T my teacher to show me how it worked and then it seemed easy. The teacher only showed "their" way...the school's accepted method...and it didn't make sense to me. Then someone else explained it differently and it clicked. My mom actually got yelled at by my 6th grade teacher for teaching me to do fractions, because I didn't do them the way the rest of the class did, and the teacher had been to college to learn to teach and my mom hadn't, so my mom had no business trying to be the teacher, and she should leave the teaching to those who were qualified. My mom said if her "qualifications" had worked to teach me, she COULD have left it up to her, but since someone had to teach me fractions and the teacher wasn't going to do it, my mom stepped in. The teacher was livid. (She was a terrible teacher.) But I think you have to use whatever method kids understand, and you may have to use several to meet every kid's needs. If one method doesn't work, try something else, you know? My kids are both far beyond my math ability now. I took calculus in high school, but I don't remember any of it. But they are both in high school and E is doing Trig and Calculus, and I'm not sure what A is learning, but it's beyond me. I could have helped them easily up through elementary school, but neither of them ever needed it. They are both good at math. E tutors her friends and A has the highest math grade in his class, so thank goodness they don't need my help!!
 
PUSH

PUSH

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
Songbird76 said:
I grew up with what you'd call "old math" but it wasn't like you described at all. I learned to make sets of 10. 8+2, or 5+3+2, or 4+6, etc...and then you add how many sets of 10 there are, and however many you have, you put a zero behind it, and then if there are any leftover numbers, you tack that on in place of the zero. so if I have 3 sets of zero, and a leftover 2 that didn't go into a set, I have 32. And we learned to borrow, and carry numbers when adding and subtracting, etc. So we definitely learned the ones, tens, and hundreds places. What you described as new math sounds a lot more confusing to me. I'm not sure exactly what method my kids learned, but I do remember someone saying something about no longer using the borrow/carry method, but I don't remember whether that was here or in the states.

But I don't think learning is one size fits all. If your way works for you, that's great, but I don't think every person thinks the same way. I had problems with 2 things in math...negative numbers, and fractions. And in both cases, it took someone who WASN'T my teacher to show me how it worked and then it seemed easy. The teacher only showed "their" way...the school's accepted method...and it didn't make sense to me. Then someone else explained it differently and it clicked. My mom actually got yelled at by my 6th grade teacher for teaching me to do fractions, because I didn't do them the way the rest of the class did, and the teacher had been to college to learn to teach and my mom hadn't, so my mom had no business trying to be the teacher, and she should leave the teaching to those who were qualified. My mom said if her "qualifications" had worked to teach me, she COULD have left it up to her, but since someone had to teach me fractions and the teacher wasn't going to do it, my mom stepped in. The teacher was livid. (She was a terrible teacher.) But I think you have to use whatever method kids understand, and you may have to use several to meet every kid's needs. If one method doesn't work, try something else, you know? My kids are both far beyond my math ability now. I took calculus in high school, but I don't remember any of it. But they are both in high school and E is doing Trig and Calculus, and I'm not sure what A is learning, but it's beyond me. I could have helped them easily up through elementary school, but neither of them ever needed it. They are both good at math. E tutors her friends and A has the highest math grade in his class, so thank goodness they don't need my help!!
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"New" math actually teaches many different ways and strategies to solve problems. Our curriculum encourages it. We have students discuss and share the strategies they used every day. One of the first grade math standards is to be able to add "flexibly and efficiently" within 10. The "old" way focused more on using one formula to produce an answer.

Part of the frustration that comes from being a teacher is that people always assume we are doing it wrong. I'm not saying anyone here said that, but just because someone went to school does not mean they are an expert in education and how to teach. That's like saying I've been to the doctor, so I know medicine. Teacher's expertise is constantly undermined, especially in the US, because parents think they know how to educate better than the professional educators who have years of experience with hundreds, sometimes thousands, of students. There are bad apples in every profession, but I'm speaking as a whole. There are definitely a couple teachers in my building that are not good.

And just like with anything, research evolves. Just because it was one way in the past does not mean it's the best way. As with any profession, it's important to be flexible and adaptable and go with research-based best practices.
 
Goofyernmost

Goofyernmost

Well-Known Member
PUSH said:
"New" math actually teaches many different ways and strategies to solve problems. Our curriculum encourages it. We have students discuss and share the strategies they used every day. One of the first grade math standards is to be able to add "flexibly and efficiently" within 10. The "old" way focused more on using one formula to produce an answer.

Part of the frustration that comes from being a teacher is that people always assume we are doing it wrong. I'm not saying anyone here said that, but just because someone went to school does not mean they are an expert in education and how to teach. That's like saying I've been to the doctor, so I know medicine. Teacher's expertise is constantly undermined, especially in the US, because parents think they know how to educate better than the professional educators who have years of experience with hundreds, sometimes thousands, of students. There are bad apples in every profession, but I'm speaking as a whole. There are definitely a couple teachers in my building that are not good.

And just like with anything, research evolves. Just because it was one way in the past does not mean it's the best way. As with any profession, it's important to be flexible and adaptable and go with research-based best practices.
Click to expand...
To be honest, I really cannot connect the idea that math procedure really has all that much of an affect on ones creativity. In fact, to me it seems like it is one topic that is exact nor does it have a creative way to make 2+2=7. And whatever way one uses to arrive at the correct answer is irrelevant because either way will get the same answers.

Creativity in thought has many other avenues that still have to be based around a mathematical reality. We put humans on the moon calculated by people that started out with old math and then expended upon it as a base. It seemed to work pretty well. Even though I kind of understand it, I am still at a loss to understand why it was necessary to change a method that gets the same end result. No matter how you arrive at it, 2+2 still has to equal 4. And I think you may be surprised at just how many different ways that a human will get to that answer in spite of being taught in a different way. So like I said, in time the new math will become what, at that point, will be the old math and the cycle will continue.
 
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PUSH

PUSH

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
Goofyernmost said:
To be honest, I really cannot connect the idea that math procedure really has all that much of an affect on ones creativity. In fact, to me it seems like it is one topic that is exact nor have a creative way to make 2+2=7. And whatever way one uses to arrive at the correct answer is irrelevant because either way will get the same answers.

Creativity in thought has many other avenues that still have to be based around a mathematical reality. We put humans on the moon calculated by people that started out with old math and then expended upon it as a base. It seemed to work pretty well. Even though I kind of understand it, I am still at a loss to understand why it was necessary to change a method that gets the same end result. No matter how you arrive at it, 2+2 still has to equal 4. And I think you may be surprised at just how many different ways that a human will get to that answer in spite of being taught in a different way. So like I said, in time the new math will become the old math and the cycle will continue.
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Some people will just "get" it without being taught in a deeper way. It just makes sense for them. But that's leaving behind so many kids who don't naturally get it. My job isn't to teach to those it's easy to teach to. My job is to teach to ALL students.

I have taught the "old" way and the "new" way. My data shows a lot more growth and understanding with the "new" way. Yes, there's one right answer in math. But as I've been saying, just because you produce the right answer, doesn't mean you truly understand the process of what was happening. Some do just get it, but many don't. It's why you'll hear so many adults complain that math is hard... because they haven't been taught number sense and how numbers actually work.

I am a prime example. The "new" math didn't make sense to me until I started teaching it. Even since I've started teaching it, my own understanding of math and numbers has deepened.

And like you said, everyone can arrive at answers in a different way. That is exactly how "new" math operates. It's about finding ways that make sense for you, rather than following a prescribed method. But parents don't like it when we teach a way that doesn't make sense to them, even when it makes sense for their child.
 
L

Lilofan

Well-Known Member
Songbird76 said:
I grew up with what you'd call "old math" but it wasn't like you described at all. I learned to make sets of 10. 8+2, or 5+3+2, or 4+6, etc...and then you add how many sets of 10 there are, and however many you have, you put a zero behind it, and then if there are any leftover numbers, you tack that on in place of the zero. so if I have 3 sets of zero, and a leftover 2 that didn't go into a set, I have 32. And we learned to borrow, and carry numbers when adding and subtracting, etc. So we definitely learned the ones, tens, and hundreds places. What you described as new math sounds a lot more confusing to me. I'm not sure exactly what method my kids learned, but I do remember someone saying something about no longer using the borrow/carry method, but I don't remember whether that was here or in the states.

But I don't think learning is one size fits all. If your way works for you, that's great, but I don't think every person thinks the same way. I had problems with 2 things in math...negative numbers, and fractions. And in both cases, it took someone who WASN'T my teacher to show me how it worked and then it seemed easy. The teacher only showed "their" way...the school's accepted method...and it didn't make sense to me. Then someone else explained it differently and it clicked. My mom actually got yelled at by my 6th grade teacher for teaching me to do fractions, because I didn't do them the way the rest of the class did, and the teacher had been to college to learn to teach and my mom hadn't, so my mom had no business trying to be the teacher, and she should leave the teaching to those who were qualified. My mom said if her "qualifications" had worked to teach me, she COULD have left it up to her, but since someone had to teach me fractions and the teacher wasn't going to do it, my mom stepped in. The teacher was livid. (She was a terrible teacher.) But I think you have to use whatever method kids understand, and you may have to use several to meet every kid's needs. If one method doesn't work, try something else, you know? My kids are both far beyond my math ability now. I took calculus in high school, but I don't remember any of it. But they are both in high school and E is doing Trig and Calculus, and I'm not sure what A is learning, but it's beyond me. I could have helped them easily up through elementary school, but neither of them ever needed it. They are both good at math. E tutors her friends and A has the highest math grade in his class, so thank goodness they don'
"New" math actually teaches many different ways and strategies to solve problems. Our curriculum encourages it. We have students discuss and share the strategies they used every day. One of the first grade math standards is to be able to add "flexibly and efficiently" within 10. The "old" way focused more on using one formula to produce an answer.

Part of the frustration that comes from being a teacher is that people always assume we are doing it wrong. I'm not saying anyone here said that, but just because someone went to school does not mean they are an expert in education and how to teach. That's like saying I've been to the doctor, so I know medicine. Teacher's expertise is constantly
Click to expand...
 
L

Lilofan

Well-Known Member
PUSH said:
"New" math actually teaches many different ways and strategies to solve problems. Our curriculum encourages it. We have students discuss and share the strategies they used every day. One of the first grade math standards is to be able to add "flexibly and efficiently" within 10. The "old" way focused more on using one formula to produce an answer.

Part of the frustration that comes from being a teacher is that people always assume we are doing it wrong. I'm not saying anyone here said that, but just because someone went to school does not mean they are an expert in education and how to teach. That's like saying I've been to the doctor, so I know medicine. Teacher's expertise is constantly undermined, especially in the US, because parents think they know how to educate better than the professional educators who have years of experience with hundreds, sometimes thousands, of students. There are bad apples in every profession, but I'm speaking as a whole. There are definitely a couple teachers in my building that are not good.

And just like with anything, research evolves. Just because it was one way in the past does not mean it's the best way. As with any profession, it's important to be flexible and adaptable and go with research-based best practices.
Click to expand...
Old or new math allows the student to better understand percentages , graphs and problem solving by self or with a team. This helps one improve understanding about personal finance. I grew up with the old math. I like to problem solve and work with teams during school and post school in the companies I've worked for. I tell some of the younger guys if you invest $400 monthly to a Vanguard index fund from age 22 to 65 , with compounding interest one's net worth at age 65 will be a cool $1M. At times the reasons come out can't do it, can t afford to, etc, etc. There are a number of ways to save $400 monthly but it takes a new mindset and sacrifice to make it happen.
 
Songbird76

Songbird76

Well-Known Member
PUSH said:
"New" math actually teaches many different ways and strategies to solve problems. Our curriculum encourages it. We have students discuss and share the strategies they used every day. One of the first grade math standards is to be able to add "flexibly and efficiently" within 10. The "old" way focused more on using one formula to produce an answer.

Part of the frustration that comes from being a teacher is that people always assume we are doing it wrong. I'm not saying anyone here said that, but just because someone went to school does not mean they are an expert in education and how to teach. That's like saying I've been to the doctor, so I know medicine. Teacher's expertise is constantly undermined, especially in the US, because parents think they know how to educate better than the professional educators who have years of experience with hundreds, sometimes thousands, of students. There are bad apples in every profession, but I'm speaking as a whole. There are definitely a couple teachers in my building that are not good.

And just like with anything, research evolves. Just because it was one way in the past does not mean it's the best way. As with any profession, it's important to be flexible and adaptable and go with research-based best practices.
Click to expand...
I'm curious when you say "new math", is that what was called common core? I asked my daughter how they learned in school and she said they were taught several different ways, but they did not do the common core thing.

I agree to a certain extent that teachers are undermined, but I think sometimes teachers get caught up with their own expertise and don't believe parents can possibly be as effective as they are. My 6th grade teacher was a first year teacher fresh out of college, and knew it all. But she couldn't explain fractions to me, despite my being generally good at math. I was always in the highest level group when we split up, but fractions just didn't make sense. I was so frustrated and when I went to the teacher for help, she had her feet up on her desk and she was reading a book and told me she didn't have time to help me and I should have paid attention when she explained it. She refused to believe that I didn't understand her explanation and insisted I must have been goofing off. Then when my mom was able to explain it and she couldn't, she felt threatened and called my mom in to tell her to butt out of my education and leave it to the experts. My mom had worked in a savings and loan bank for years before she got married and had kids.... She probably knew way more than my teacher did. Certainly more than the teacher gave her credit for. But she was arrogant and didn't want to admit that someone who had never been to college could know something she didn't. It was completely due to arrogance on her part. She looked down on the single mom who had never been to college and cleaned houses for a living.
 
Tiggerish

Tiggerish

Resident Redhead
Premium Member
@JenniferS I was intrigued by your ginger ale ham, so I did a little googling and poured ginger ale over my 6lb (~3kg) and put some brown sugar on it,and it came out probably the best Easter.ham we've ever eaten, so thanks for the inspo!!

I was disappointed that there was so little fat on my ham that I had almost nothing to score or put cloves into. But it was still.yummy.
 
PUSH

PUSH

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
Songbird76 said:
I'm curious when you say "new math", is that what was called common core? I asked my daughter how they learned in school and she said they were taught several different ways, but they did not do the common core thing.

I agree to a certain extent that teachers are undermined, but I think sometimes teachers get caught up with their own expertise and don't believe parents can possibly be as effective as they are. My 6th grade teacher was a first year teacher fresh out of college, and knew it all. But she couldn't explain fractions to me, despite my being generally good at math. I was always in the highest level group when we split up, but fractions just didn't make sense. I was so frustrated and when I went to the teacher for help, she had her feet up on her desk and she was reading a book and told me she didn't have time to help me and I should have paid attention when she explained it. She refused to believe that I didn't understand her explanation and insisted I must have been goofing off. Then when my mom was able to explain it and she couldn't, she felt threatened and called my mom in to tell her to butt out of my education and leave it to the experts. My mom had worked in a savings and loan bank for years before she got married and had kids.... She probably knew way more than my teacher did. Certainly more than the teacher gave her credit for. But she was arrogant and didn't want to admit that someone who had never been to college could know something she didn't. It was completely due to arrogance on her part. She looked down on the single mom who had never been to college and cleaned houses for a living.
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Technically yes, it's common core math, but common core math isn't what people think it is. It's really not a way of teaching at all. Common core is a set of standards that students are supposed to meet before the end of each grade level. The standards do not prescribe a specific way you have to teach. They were created so that every grade level has the same expectations, regardless of where you go to school. Different states use different things, but the majority of states use something very common. There might just be a tweak in language.

I'm sorry you had that experience. There are bad apples no matter what the profession. That's inevitable. In cases like that, it's justifiable.

Teaching is a unique profession. There isn't another profession that is entrusted with your children's futures as much as educators are. I welcome support from parents. I can't do the job on my own. Kids don't just learn from me. But I also need parents to trust me that I'm doing what's right for their child. And not just me, but the school in general. I know it can be hard because those are their babies, but I have never met a teacher that doesn't go out of their way for the betterment of their students.

I think the examples that I've heard here tend to fall more in the upper grades like middle and high school. I don't have experience with that, do I can't speak specifically to that. But I know it's my job to develop a deep understanding of the foundational skills of math. I am teaching the base for everything that they will learn in their futures. I'm not saying I teach one way. That's so far from the truth of how math is taught these days, or at least how it should be taught. If a kid is struggling one way, it's okay because there are so many ways it can be done. But if they don't understand what is happening in the problem, no strategy is going to make sense. That's what I'm trying to say.
 

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