When did the IP idea really start?

Disney Irish

Premium Member
Seeing as Disney let Pixar go thinking they didn't need them, only to then discover they did in fact need them, I'm pretty sure that's exactly how it went down

Actually they needed each other. Otherwise Iger would have ended up paying more if Disney was really that desperate.
 

DanielBB8

Well-Known Member
Care to cite your sources for those claims?

“I think Disney would have accepted this movie if Walt Disney were still alive,” Lucas said in 1973. “Walt Disney not only had vision, but he was also an extremely adventurous person. He wasn’t afraid.”

Indeed, Steven Spielberg said this was exactly the way his friend had described his fledgling film to him. “George always described it to me as a kids’ picture,” Spielberg said, “a little Disney film, that he didn’t think anyone would want to see, but he wanted to see it.”

Originally, Lucas intended the film to open and close with a storybook, The Journal of the Whills, to emphasise that the story came from a book — the same framing device used in Disney’s 1967 adaptation of The Jungle Book.

When it finally came time to cast Luke Skywalker, Mark Hamill stood out to Lucas because he was “a little younger, more idealistic, naïve, and hopeful; a little more Disney-esque”.

In the infamous deleted scene that was originally intended to introduce audiences to Luke Skywalker and Biggs Darklighter, Luke’s friends even refer to the young orphan as ‘Wormy’, just as the future King Arthur was known as ‘Wart’ in Disney’s The Sword and the Stone (1963).

In 2012, while discussing the sale of Lucasfilm to Disney in an interview for the official Star WarsYouTube channel, Lucas acknowledged that Star Wars and Disney had long been a match made in heaven.

“When I first made Star Wars, everybody in Hollywood said, ‘Well, this is a movie that Disney should have made’,” Lucas said.”
 

Hatbox Ghostbuster

Well-Known Member

“I think Disney would have accepted this movie if Walt Disney were still alive,” Lucas said in 1973. “Walt Disney not only had vision, but he was also an extremely adventurous person. He wasn’t afraid.”

Indeed, Steven Spielberg said this was exactly the way his friend had described his fledgling film to him. “George always described it to me as a kids’ picture,” Spielberg said, “a little Disney film, that he didn’t think anyone would want to see, but he wanted to see it.”

Originally, Lucas intended the film to open and close with a storybook, The Journal of the Whills, to emphasise that the story came from a book — the same framing device used in Disney’s 1967 adaptation of The Jungle Book.

When it finally came time to cast Luke Skywalker, Mark Hamill stood out to Lucas because he was “a little younger, more idealistic, naïve, and hopeful; a little more Disney-esque”.

In the infamous deleted scene that was originally intended to introduce audiences to Luke Skywalker and Biggs Darklighter, Luke’s friends even refer to the young orphan as ‘Wormy’, just as the future King Arthur was known as ‘Wart’ in Disney’s The Sword and the Stone (1963).

In 2012, while discussing the sale of Lucasfilm to Disney in an interview for the official Star WarsYouTube channel, Lucas acknowledged that Star Wars and Disney had long been a match made in heaven.

“When I first made Star Wars, everybody in Hollywood said, ‘Well, this is a movie that Disney should have made’,” Lucas said.”
OK...so Disney was a strong influence on Lucas and SW. But the idea of "bringing it home" would mean that the idea originated at Disney, but left because they balked at making it. Also, no mention of Indiana Jones.
 

DanielBB8

Well-Known Member
OK...so Disney was a strong influence on Lucas and SW. But the idea of "bringing it home" would mean that the idea originated at Disney, but left because they balked at making it. Also, no mention of Indiana Jones.
Bringing it to where the inspiration was from. Done with arguing with you from ignorance so I won’t do you the favor of helping you further. You already rejected the evidence before and after it was provided. Really not fair.
 

Hatbox Ghostbuster

Well-Known Member
At the end of the day, we all have our own opinions, and that's fine. But I will say that at no point in this discussion have I been convinced that balancing out IP-development with non-IP development in the parks is a bad idea.

Quite frankly, I'm kind of over this thread. We're all still mates though, I hope.
 

Tony the Tigger

Well-Known Member
I think you just have to accept that currently American audiences want IP based attractions at domestic parks. Blame TV, blame the internet, blame the media, but that is just what they want at this point in Disney park history. And until Disney sees numbers to state otherwise, that is what we will continue to get. The wish and hope will have to be that tastes of American audiences will change and they will want more non-IP based attractions in the future. And then hope that Disney will listen and move in that direction.

Why blame anyone? It's a perfectly valid "want" to go to WDW and expect to see Disney characters rather than something generic. There is nothing inherent in a generic attraction that makes it of any better taste.

As for audience wanting IP, yeah, it does seem that way. But remember, the audience is also dumb and truthfully deep down, doesn't know what it wants. I am always reminded of the Henry Ford quote where he says if he had asked his audience what they wanted at the time, they would have said "a faster horse". Point is, sometimes what people think they want isn't really the best thing for them. Now, I know we're talking theme parks here, but I think Disney once used to pave the way for themed entertainment innovation and presented audiences with something they hadn't seen before, and couldn't get anywhere else. I feel like that identity is slipping, and Disney is just trying to keep pace with its competitors in terms of the "ride the movies" park mantra. Again, looking at DL, its most of the non-IP attractions that are the most popular. Certainly the longest surviving. And I just frankly don't think that's a coincidence. DL audiences know to expect some unique stuff at the parks. I don't get why Disney is so afraid to give it to them anymore. Actually, I do know why they're afraid...because they have a risk-averse, profit-minded CEO who wouldn't even cross the street unless he was sure there was a pot of gold on the other side.

This really comes off as arrogant. For the record, I agree the average American is not smart. If a "C" is an average grade, it doesn't take much to hit that achievement. Look at our recent election.

However, that has little relevance to enjoyment of a theme park. It's not a museum.

Perhaps other than some technological patents, Disney IP's are the only thing proprietary about a Disney theme park. This isn't 1959; they're not the only game in town. Technological advances, trained employees working elsewhere, and multi-billion dollar conglomerates make alternate theme parks of Disney level theming doable if the money and will are there. The only thing they couldn't do is use Mickey Mouse, et al.

Anyone can make an animatronic boat tour of children around the world. Why would they? What year is this again?

Disney was first to market in the theme park (not just amusement park) arena. They will benefit from that for years to come just like Band-Aid and Kleenex. They have brand loyalty and nostalgia it will take Universal decades to build up. If Walt had a "special something," that's not going to help any going forward. Someone can sing as well as Frank Sinatra without duplicating his success.

But if Universal and Disney both put their minds to a non-IP attraction focusing on butterflies by 2021, neither has an advantage.

If either of them makes a hit animated film about butterflies in the meantime, that company then has the advantage.

Yes Walt took risks and luckily they paid off.

And that may be a lightning in a bottle moment that won't be repeated in the same way.

I know from my own business: if I tried to start it today the way I started it 20 years ago, it couldn't have come together the same way. The circumstances that existed then don't exist now. Conversely, if I tried to create the current incarnation of my business 20 years ago as it is now, it would have failed spectacularly. You can't just pick a formula that worked years ago and apply it now and assume it will always work. It may; it may not.

All I'm fighting for is balance in the parks. Build SWL. Build Marvel Land. Build Pixar Pier. But also balance that out with something else. I don't get why that's asking too much.

Is anyone arguing against that?
 

DanielBB8

Well-Known Member
Remember those story treatments for Star WarsEpisodes VII, VIII and IX, which Lucas sold along with his company to Disney for $4.06 billion in October 2012? Turns out they have little, if anything, to do with what we'll see on screen starting in December.

"The ones that I sold to Disney, they came to the decision that they didn't really want to do those," Lucas told CinemaBlend. "They made up their own. So it's not the ones that I originally wrote."

Maybe that’s where original ideas die and why Star Wars has tanked.
 

Disney Irish

Premium Member
At the end of the day, we all have our own opinions, and that's fine. But I will say that at no point in this discussion have I been convinced that balancing out IP-development with non-IP development in the parks is a bad idea.

Quite frankly, I'm kind of over this thread. We're all still mates though, I hope.

And I don't think anyone, especially not me, was trying to say it should be IP-only forever. However eventually when American audiences tire of the IP-only there will be investment in non-IP stuff.
 

Hatbox Ghostbuster

Well-Known Member
Why blame anyone? It's a perfectly valid "want" to go to WDW and expect to see Disney characters rather than something generic. There is nothing inherent in a generic attraction that makes it of any better taste.



This really comes off as arrogant. For the record, I agree the average American is not smart. If a "C" is an average grade, it doesn't take much to hit that achievement. Look at our recent election.

However, that has little relevance to enjoyment of a theme park. It's not a museum.

Perhaps other than some technological patents, Disney IP's are the only thing proprietary about a Disney theme park. This isn't 1959; they're not the only game in town. Technological advances, trained employees working elsewhere, and multi-billion dollar conglomerates make alternate theme parks of Disney level theming doable if the money and will are there. The only thing they couldn't do is use Mickey Mouse, et al.

Anyone can make an animatronic boat tour of children around the world. Why would they? What year is this again?

Disney was first to market in the theme park (not just amusement park) arena. They will benefit from that for years to come just like Band-Aid and Kleenex. They have brand loyalty and nostalgia it will take Universal decades to build up. If Walt had a "special something," that's not going to help any going forward. Someone can sing as well as Frank Sinatra without duplicating his success.

But if Universal and Disney both put their minds to a non-IP attraction focusing on butterflies by 2021, neither has an advantage.

If either of them makes a hit animated film about butterflies in the meantime, that company then has the advantage.



And that may be a lightning in a bottle moment that won't be repeated in the same way.

I know from my own business: if I tried to start it today the way I started it 20 years ago, it couldn't have come together the same way. The circumstances that existed then don't exist now. Conversely, if I tried to create the current incarnation of my business 20 years ago as it is now, it would have failed spectacularly. You can't just pick a formula that worked years ago and apply it now and assume it will always work. It may; it may not.



Is anyone arguing against that?
To be clear, those sentiments of human stupidity originated more from folks like Steve Jobs, his biography being where I first encountered that Henry Ford quote...I think for him it was just a reaction to the idea that the public knows what it wants vs Steve as an innovator giving people something unexpected.

I also agree that one of the things Disney has that no other park does is its characters. And again, I'm not saying Disney shouldn't utilize them. I just want them used appropriately (ie, not Guardians in Epcot, etc) and tastefully.

But even with that, Disney can still distance themselves from their competitors in the non-IP areas just through sheer quality of experience.

Also, I don't know that anyone is "arguing" against balance, but it just seems that there is no balance to argue for at the moment. It's either IP or non-existant.
 

Disney Irish

Premium Member
Why blame anyone? It's a perfectly valid "want" to go to WDW and expect to see Disney characters rather than something generic. There is nothing inherent in a generic attraction that makes it of any better taste.
The argument against it is that some don't want that. They want something more thought provoking besides Disney characters, which I get.

And that may be a lightning in a bottle moment that won't be repeated in the same way.

I know from my own business: if I tried to start it today the way I started it 20 years ago, it couldn't have come together the same way. The circumstances that existed then don't exist now. Conversely, if I tried to create the current incarnation of my business 20 years ago as it is now, it would have failed spectacularly. You can't just pick a formula that worked years ago and apply it now and assume it will always work. It may; it may not.
And this maybe true. I often asked myself this question, if Walt were here today would Disneyland still be built in the same way. I would expect the answer to be no. But we'll never know.
 

Californian Elitist

Well-Known Member
Taking a survey on the great unknown is completely bogus. Why would you think this survey should exist? Discovery Bay already exists at Disneyland Paris and Tokyo DisneySea. We don’t need more such ideas. Guests don’t eat up everything. That’s the failure of the original California Adventure and Epcot.

You missed the entire point.

Disney wants to build what they want, not what the guests want. They pretend to pass off their decisions as something guests want in the form of surveys. That’s the ultimate point. You can choose to believe it or not choose to.
 

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