What you've all been waiting for

Ignohippo

Well-Known Member
the funny thing is, you folks are putting more stock in complete rumor than actual common sense. I have absolutely no reason to doubt Lee and his information but we'll see what's actually built. I have a feeling that what we will end up seeing in the final plans is something right in between what we're both saying.

It wouldn't surprise me to see the cottage and chateau gone – I just think the final product will be a lot closer to the original concept paintings (and the footprints of the buildings) than a lot of people think.

As for JT, I find myself agreeing with him most of the time – I'm not too sure why he's getting flamed here except to say this board seems to be getting more and more hostile every day. People here just seem to hate contradictory opinions. Until the final plans are uncovered, no one truly knows for a fact what is happening. I have no doubt Lee knows more than most of us here, but even those plans can change or be misunderstood.
 

Captain Chaos

Well-Known Member
the funny thing is, you folks are putting more stock in complete rumor than actual common sense. I have absolutely no reason to doubt Lee and his information but we'll see what's actually built. I have a feeling that what we will end up seeing in the final plans is something right in between what we're both saying.

It wouldn't surprise me to see the cottage and chateau gone – I just think the final product will be a lot closer to the original concept paintings (and the footprints of the buildings) than a lot of people think.

As for JT, I find myself agreeing with him most of the time – I'm not too sure why he's getting flamed here except to say this board seems to be getting more and more hostile every day. People here just seem to hate contradictory opinions. Until the final plans are uncovered, no one truly knows for a fact what is happening. I have no doubt Lee knows more than most of us here, but even those plans can change or be misunderstood.

Looks like we have another one who is disappointed he or she can't color with Aurora or watch Cinderella change gowns...

Raven has seen the plans... Juan has a connection somewhere and has seen the plans... Lee has all but confirmed from his souorces the coaster-like ride is coming... Yet you and JT want to believe they are wrong.. Why is it so hard to understand that LM and BatB are being built as planned but the rest of FLE is not???? Please don't say to look at the blue prints vs the ariel shot... We have already been told by Staggs LM and BatB are NOT being changed, so COMMON SENSE would say those two areas are being built according to plan.. But you are right.. Plans an change and they did.. The cottages are gone... A coaster-like ride is taking their place...
 

juan

Well-Known Member
the funny thing is, you folks are putting more stock in complete rumor than actual common sense. I have absolutely no reason to doubt Lee and his information but we'll see what's actually built. I have a feeling that what we will end up seeing in the final plans is something right in between what we're both saying.

It wouldn't surprise me to see the cottage and chateau gone – I just think the final product will be a lot closer to the original concept paintings (and the footprints of the buildings) than a lot of people think.

As for JT, I find myself agreeing with him most of the time – I'm not too sure why he's getting flamed here except to say this board seems to be getting more and more hostile every day. People here just seem to hate contradictory opinions. Until the final plans are uncovered, no one truly knows for a fact what is happening. I have no doubt Lee knows more than most of us here, but even those plans can change or be misunderstood.

Lee, Raven, and myself have firsthand knowledge. I don't know where this "complete rumor" is. :shrug:
 

Captain Chaos

Well-Known Member
Lee, Raven, and myself have firsthand knowledge. I don't know where this "complete rumor" is. :shrug:

Juan, it is all common sense... We shouldn't listen to Tom Staggs... We can't listen to you, raven or Lee.. We have to compare the ariel shot with the blue prints, use our common sense, and see things that aren't there.. I mean, and see what Disney is really building..
 

Ignohippo

Well-Known Member
Juan, it is all common sense... We shouldn't listen to Tom Staggs... We can't listen to you, raven or Lee.. We have to compare the ariel shot with the blue prints, use our common sense, and see things that aren't there.. I mean, and see what Disney is really building..

Sorry, I'd never seen anywhere on here that these folks have actually SEEN the plans. Completely my mistake if that's the case. I never once said any of these people shouldn't be trusted or anything of the sort.

If you folks have actually seen the plans, by all means please tell us what you've seen. All I've read on here is people repeating what they've been told - not that they've actually seen the plans. And at that, much of the info has been pretty vague - not to say it isn't true, just that it's been vague. Nothing about what I'm saying is in any way meant to be confrontational. I certainly apologize if it comes off that way. But, I'm not quite sure why it's such a crime to propose alternative possibilities to something that's gone through as many changes as thing's gone through. :shrug:

So what do Lee, Raven and Juan do for Disney? As someone who's always wanted to work for Disney, I'd love to hear their stories - if they feel like sharing that is.

So, let's just take a step back. It's really cool to see how the LM and BATB buildings, as well as the castle wall and retention ponds (on either side of where the Cinderella and Aurora areas were), are matching up to be exactly where they were on the blueprints. It's exciting to see it take shape.
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
As for JT, I find myself agreeing with him most of the time – I'm not too sure why he's getting flamed here except to say this board seems to be getting more and more hostile every day. People here just seem to hate contradictory opinions. Until the final plans are uncovered, no one truly knows for a fact what is happening. I have no doubt Lee knows more than most of us here, but even those plans can change or be misunderstood.
The flaming stems more from the constant contradiction for the sake of contradiction and then the instant turn around about how he was right all along. Will you publicly own up to being wrong, if that turns out to be the case, or follow suit and say you were misunderstood?

The ponds staying where they are makes plenty of sense so long as the middle space is being built upon. Changes cost money. Common sense would be to leave as much in place as possible instead of designing, make the new element fit into what is there instead of totally redesigning everything.
 

Captain Chaos

Well-Known Member
Sorry, I'd never seen anywhere on here that these folks have actually SEEN the plans. Completely my mistake if that's the case. I never once said any of these people shouldn't be trusted or anything of the sort.

If you folks have actually seen the plans, by all means please tell us what you've seen. All I've read on here is people repeating what they've been told - not that they've actually seen the plans. Nothing about what I'm saying is in any way meant to be confrontational - I'm not quite sure why it's such a crime to propose alternative possibilities to something that's gone through as many changes as thing's gone through. :shrug:

Raven has stated several time he saw the plans... Juan has stated many times he has first hand knowledge and has seen the plans... I am not sure if Lee saw new plans or was told... He'll have to answer that one for himself...

They have told us what they have seen on many threads in many posts... They also have to be careful what they can say due to NDA agreements... So, they may not be able to tell us EVERYTHING...

It is not a crime to propose alternatives... However, when people inside tell us things are cancelled and something new is coming in their place, why say they are wrong and you refuse to believe them??
 

SeaCastle

Well-Known Member
As for JT, I find myself agreeing with him most of the time – I'm not too sure why he's getting flamed here except to say this board seems to be getting more and more hostile every day. People here just seem to hate contradictory opinions. Until the final plans are uncovered, no one truly knows for a fact what is happening. I have no doubt Lee knows more than most of us here, but even those plans can change or be misunderstood.

Personally, I respect anyone's right to have an opinion. But if anyone states their opinion as fact, refuses to accept facts, goes back on their word (and deny that they did), and passes their personall opinion and speculation as mandates of the Walt Disney Company, then they will be called out on it (especially if said persons have admitted to trolling). This issue isn't always native to JT, but some of us here have a low tolerance for the BS that I mentioned previously.
 

Lee

Adventurer
So what do Lee, Raven and Juan do for Disney?

I can only speak for myself, of course, but I've stated many times that I don't work for Disney. I have simply managed to put myself into a position to have sources within the company, at varying levels, that share information with me.
This allows me to usually speak without the limitations of an NDA, and to get some measure of enjoyment from being a bit of a nuisance to the company I love.
 

Ignohippo

Well-Known Member
It is not a crime to propose alternatives... However, when people inside tell us things are cancelled and something new is coming in their place, why say they are wrong and you refuse to believe them??


Well, as a long-timer, don't lose sight that it's hard to know who's an insider and who's a park employee, bus driver or fanboy just spreading bs. We have plenty of all types here. I'm not new, but I also haven't been here long enough to know who exactly everyone is and who is to be trusted.

Lazyboy: of course I would say I was wrong! Why wouldn't I? I guess there are a lot of people that can't admit they're wrong but I'm not one of them. It isn't as though I said what I said to start a "I'm right, they're wrong" kind of deal. Heck, I don't have a clue what they're doing. But, I can have an opinion and speculate as to what I'm seeing.

This is message board we come to find out info, share opinions and listen to others. It should be fun. Unfortunately, too many people take it WAY too seriously. It's incredibly exciting to see this take shape and speculate what the end product will be - it's even more fun to be able to share it with people who have the same interests.

And, I'm not contradicting just to contradict. I was simply stating my opinion and pointing out the reasons for this belief. Maybe it's wishful thinking because I really liked what the chateau area added to the park (on the other hand, I hated the idea of the meet and greet - and was actually flamed for not liking the concept on these very boards at the time)! It may just be a hope that WDO may add the coaster and keep the aesthetics that were so appealing from the original plan.

As for JT, like I said, I've often enjoy his comments and the info he brings. If someone's been caught lying about something then that would tick me off too. I haven't ever seen that, so I can't judge.
 

Ignohippo

Well-Known Member
I can only speak for myself, of course, but I've stated many times that I don't work for Disney. I have simply managed to put myself into a position to have sources within the company, at varying levels, that share information with me.
This allows me to usually speak without the limitations of an NDA, and to get some measure of enjoyment from being a bit of a nuisance to the company I love.

Good for you Lee! :wave: So, from what you've been told, how do you see this thing working out aesthetically? We're on the same page I think on what the ride itself will be (a glorified dark ride with minor coaster elements - not anything like BTMRR or Barnstormer, but much better thematically) but how do you see the outside looking?

The only thing I can picture are rolling hills with the ride going in and out of it. I'm sure it'll look better than that but I can't imagine anything else! It just sounds too much like a mini version of BTMRR to be true. I just don't see how that will fit with everything that's being built around it. We also know WDI prides itself on originality and this doesn't sound too extraordinary. Especially knowing that the pressure will be on to have something that looks as good as what was on the original renderings and plans.

And if anyone who's actually seen the plans wants to chime in, please tell us! No need for specifics but I'm really curious as to how they'll pull this off.
 

MiklCraw4d

Member
Personally, I respect anyone's right to have an opinion. But if anyone states their opinion as fact, refuses to accept facts, goes back on their word (and deny that they did), and passes their personall opinion and speculation as mandates of the Walt Disney Company, then they will be called out on it (especially if said persons have admitted to trolling). This issue isn't always native to JT, but some of us here have a low tolerance for the BS that I mentioned previously.

This.

It's one thing to shoot the breeze and try to guess what Disney is up to - we all do it. It's also perfectly reasonable to brainstorm what Disney *could* do, and what we wish they would do. But it's another thing entirely to make stuff up and then, through some alchemical process, convert your own blue-sky fantasies into something that Disney simply MUST be doing because it just makes sense (to you). And to persist in this insistence, despite informed people telling you in no uncertain terms that you're wrong. Rinse, and repeat. And repeat. And repeat.
 

MiklCraw4d

Member
As to the point of the retention ponds, I wouldn't be surprised if they kept a lot of the drainage plan in place. Better to design a new building around the original drainage plan for the site than to have to revisit the water scheme for the whole area. Water and drainage issues are so critical in Florida, I wouldn't blame them for leaving that part as-is.
 

Captain Chaos

Well-Known Member
Well, as a long-timer, don't lose sight that it's hard to know who's an insider and who's a park employee, bus driver or fanboy just spreading bs. We have plenty of all types here. I'm not new, but I also haven't been here long enough to know who exactly everyone is and who is to be trusted.

Ohh believe me, I have seen it all. Maybe not all, but close enough... I know people come on here claiming to be an insider, spreading nothing but wishful thinking... Getting the board in a frenzy, only to see that account suspended or banned 2 days later for being a fraud... I think that has happened a lot in the last 2 years...

I trust Lee since he seems to be accurate times than not.. I also trust him cause he is up front and honest... He'll tell us what he has heard and clarify whether it is fact or he is 50% certain or if he isn't certain at all.. And for the most part, he doesn't tell us anything if he isn't 100% certain...

Igno, this next section is not meant for you personally...

Sure, maybe Lee has been given bad info... Maybe juan is pulling our leg.... Maybe raven is BSing us all over the place... Maybe the three of them and Tom Staggs, along with WDI have concocted a story to feed to the Disney Internet fans to prevent a stampede calling for the heads of TDO and upper Disney management... Maybe they really are building Coloring Time with Aurora and Let's Play Dress Up with Cinderella... and this whole dwarf mine coaster is part of the conspiracy..

I'm saying that in jest of course and not meant to disparage you or anyone else here.. All I am really saying is, we have been told the chateaus are history and a dwarf mine ride is coming instead... We have heard it from credible sources... You are free to believe what you want, and can propose your opinions... But you'd have to also believe there is a vast cover up between the insiders here, on other boards, with TDO, WDI, and Tom Staggs...
 

Captain Chaos

Well-Known Member
As to the point of the retention ponds, I wouldn't be surprised if they kept a lot of the drainage plan in place. Better to design a new building around the original drainage plan for the site than to have to revisit the water scheme for the whole area. Water and drainage issues are so critical in Florida, I wouldn't blame them for leaving that part as-is.

Plus, they will probably save some money on using the current design instead of redesigning everything...
 

Rob562

Well-Known Member
As to the point of the retention ponds, I wouldn't be surprised if they kept a lot of the drainage plan in place. Better to design a new building around the original drainage plan for the site than to have to revisit the water scheme for the whole area. Water and drainage issues are so critical in Florida, I wouldn't blame them for leaving that part as-is.

As I read through this thread, you touched on what I was going to say before I got the chance.

At least on the red circle toward BATB, that pond is most likely part of the overall landscape pond system on that side of the project, and they'd all be inter-connected. As you walk from the Castle Wall area toward Be Our Guest, you walk along a path and over a bridge. There have to be ponds on either side to have that bridge make sense.

Even though that central area as a whole is a big question mark at the moment, they can't just work on what the Guests will see to their left as they walk along that path... They have to at least plan for something to be to their right.

And, you can possibly extend that line of reasoning to the other end of the project. The pond near what was to be the Aurora area may have been designed to be connected to the ponds by Little Mermaid. So they're digging it now.

If they end up not needing them in the end, at this point in time they may decide that it's a better bet money-wise to dig the ponds now and fill them in later if need-be, rather than not dig them and have to finagle them in at a later date. (which is what dxer was getting at in his post above)

-Rob
 

Ignohippo

Well-Known Member
This.

It's one thing to shoot the breeze and try to guess what Disney is up to - we all do it. It's also perfectly reasonable to brainstorm what Disney *could* do, and what we wish they would do. But it's another thing entirely to make stuff up and then, through some alchemical process, convert your own blue-sky fantasies into something that Disney simply MUST be doing because it just makes sense (to you). And to persist in this insistence, despite informed people telling you in no uncertain terms that you're wrong. Rinse, and repeat. And repeat. And repeat.

Yeah Mike, except nothing was "made up" or my own "blue-sky fantasy". It was all in the original blueprints. It isn't like I said "hey, they're building Marvel Island in the middle of Fantasyland!", I was simply trying to show evidence that they may have decided to move ahead with the plans as they were originally drawn up in Phase One.

And, like I said, sometimes it's hard to tell who on here is informed and who is full of bs.

As for a conspiracy, I hadn't seen anyone but Lee specifically state that they had insider info until this thread (and Lee, I hope you understand it wasn't anything personal. There wasn't anyway for me to know you from any other fanboy trying to say they know more than they really do).

As for Staggs comments, he didn't say anything specifically about Cindy or Aurora's areas changing, only that they are reviewing the plans to appeal to a broader audience. We assume - under good authority - that Pixie Hollow is leaving, so that right there could be where the demographic shift could take place. Seeing how that area was the area that seems to be changing the most (first it was where the Dumbos were going, then it was the Pixie Play Area, then it was the mouse ride, now it may be CircusLand) I don't think it's too much of a stretch to wonder - rightly or wrongly - that they could've decided to go ahead with Phase One as planned and will build the Snow White ride back where the plans haven't been finalized.

I have no inside info (obviously!) and I don't want to continue to appear to be arguing with those "in the know". Just trying to show how someone could draw that conclusion from the construction that's taking place. Since I didn't know Lee, Raven, etc. from anyone else, I think you could understand a person not immediately taking the things they say as the gospel. I will happily do so from now on.
 

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