What will Disney do about the resorts expiring in 2042 ??

[nickys]

I won't argue with you, just read the declaration where it says it can only be unilaterally amended in the member's interests. It is there in black and white.
I'm not sure you are entirely grasping my point which is probably my fault. They would already have amended the declaration to exclude resale from exchanging into the first 14 if they could. They can't.
So the first 14 can always exchange into the original club.
For various legal reasons, I fail to see how you can have another resort joining the same club, but excluding members who are paying dues (resale) and paying for the facilities the inability to trade into the resort that has joined. That would not only be grossly unfair, and in my view potentially actionable, but it also would not fit DVCMC's fiduciary duty to act in the interests of its members who pay for it to run the club.
What they can do, is set up another club. The average member won't be aware of this, it's just DVC as far as they are concerned. All new resorts from now on go into this new club.
DVD can set the rules on this new club, by agreeing that a Riviera member can trade into the original DVC club, but they'll only allow direct and grandfathered to trade into the new DVC Club from the original DVC Club. Thus it's a points exchange out of the original club into the new club and into the original club from the new club. This way they get around fiduciary duties owed by the administrator of the original club, DVCMC, to to members in DVC 1.
This is my take on it, you seem to disagree, but many people seem to believe this will be how it works.
If it doesn't I'll be interested to see how they manage it.
The BVTC statement which they've apparently had to amend to facilitate this, may cast more light on this.

But resale owners at Riviera cannot trade into the original 14 resorts, while direct owners can. So they would still be treating direct and resale owners at Riviera differently from each other. Something that you seem to think they cannot do, but they are doing.

What they have said is that from now on, any resale owners can only use their points at their home resort.

 

[LuvtheGoof]

I won't argue with you, just read the declaration where it says it can only be unilaterally amended in the member's interests. It is there in black and white.
I'm not sure you are entirely grasping my point which is probably my fault. They would already have amended the declaration to exclude resale from exchanging into the first 14 if they could. They can't.
So the first 14 can always exchange into the original club.
For various legal reasons, I fail to see how you can have another resort joining the same club, but excluding members who are paying dues (resale) and paying for the facilities the inability to trade into the resort that has joined. That would not only be grossly unfair, and in my view potentially actionable, but it also would not fit DVCMC's fiduciary duty to act in the interests of its members who pay for it to run the club.
What they can do, is set up another club. The average member won't be aware of this, it's just DVC as far as they are concerned. All new resorts from now on go into this new club.
DVD can set the rules on this new club, by agreeing that a Riviera member can trade into the original DVC club, but they'll only allow direct and grandfathered to trade into the new DVC Club from the original DVC Club. Thus it's a points exchange out of the original club into the new club and into the original club from the new club. This way they get around fiduciary duties owed by the administrator of the original club, DVCMC, to to members in DVC 1.
This is my take on it, you seem to disagree, but many people seem to believe this will be how it works.
If it doesn't I'll be interested to see how they manage it.
The BVTC statement which they've apparently had to amend to facilitate this, may cast more light on this.

OK, I see your point, and agree that, internally, there may be some sort of second "club" for Riviera and all going forward, though they certainly have to be very careful with the contract wording, as direct customers can still book the original 14. I do wonder if DVC has thought that it is in the best interests of it's members to restrict the booking capability of resale buyers of Riviera. Everyone knows that it is getting harder and harder, at certain times, to book at the 7 month window for certain resorts. This restriction will limit the number of new people that are trying to get that hard to find reservation, and I find that a good thing.

 

[seascape]

OK, I see your point, and agree that, internally, there may be some sort of second "club" for Riviera and all going forward, though they certainly have to be very careful with the contract wording, as direct customers can still book the original 14. I do wonder if DVC has thought that it is in the best interests of it's members to restrict the booking capability of resale buyers of Riviera. Everyone knows that it is getting harder and harder, at certain times, to book at the 7 month window for certain resorts. This restriction will limit the number of new people that are trying to get that hard to find reservation, and I find that a good thing.

The downside is that since resale buyers of future resorts can only book into the resort they purchase, they will become extremely difficult to book by other resort owners at 7 months. Therefore if you want to book into a future resort you will have to buy there making it better to buy resale there than direct if that is where you would like to be. I love the Riviera's location being on the Skyline with direct transportation to HS and Epcot. I was going to buy enough points from Disney to visit one week every 3 years but now will probably wait and buy resale because of the restrictions.

 

[LuvtheGoof]

The downside is that since resale buyers of future resorts can only book into the resort they purchase, they will become extremely difficult to book by other resort owners at 7 months. Therefore if you want to book into a future resort you will have to buy there making it better to buy resale there than direct if that is where you would like to be. I love the Riviera's location being on the Skyline with direct transportation to HS and Epcot. I was going to buy enough points from Disney to visit one week every 3 years but now will probably wait and buy resale because of the restrictions.

If you buy direct, there are no restrictions. You get the best of both - 11 month window at the Riviera and 7 months everywhere else.

 

[YorkshireT]

If you buy direct, there are no restrictions. You get the best of both - 11 month window at the Riviera and 7 months everywhere else.

I think they can try and differentiate and discriminate against resale when trading in and out of the club but not within it. For example they already do exactly that with trade outs to Disney Cruises etc.
Anyway let us see what it looks like when we see the structure but I still think Riviera will be in a DVC 2. As I say it will be interesting if they have done it some other way.

 

[seascape]

If you buy direct, there are no restrictions. You get the best of both - 11 month window at the Riviera and 7 months everywhere else.

I want to book there, but given the restrictions, it will be the hardest resort to get if you own elsewhere. That said the restrictions will cause the resale price down to such a low price buying resale will be the only way to go. Don't buy direct with these restrictions.

 

[YorkshireT]

The downside is that since resale buyers of future resorts can only book into the resort they purchase, they will become extremely difficult to book by other resort owners at 7 months. Therefore if you want to book into a future resort you will have to buy there making it better to buy resale there than direct if that is where you would like to be. I love the Riviera's location being on the Skyline with direct transportation to HS and Epcot. I was going to buy enough points from Disney to visit one week every 3 years but now will probably wait and buy resale because of the restrictions.

I agree with this, given average length of ownership is said to be 10-15 years I bought and will always buy with a view to future value if I have to unload. I think Riviera resale (1 resort only) will attract a much lower resale value, I’m guessing about $70. Now assuming DVD do not ROFR every contract, if it is that low and it’s great it would possibly be worthwhile buying resale there.
Of course DVD expects to stamp out resale, or diminish it significantly, but if prices are low could it attract a whole new breed of value buyers or adders on, who are prepared to accept the restrictions for the low price? Maybe DVD will ROFR so many that they’ll prop the price up, but good luck in a recession with less buyers.

 

[correcaminos]

There's a trading process anyway via BVTC, that's what it does. If Riviera joins the same club as the others, it would have to abide by the club rules just like others. I can't see how it can join on special terms and have unlimited trades into the original 14 but the original 14 cannot trade into it. That wouldn't be in the interests of members currently and potentially breach of fiduciary duty by DVCMC and BVTC.
What they can do is stick all resorts from hereon in , in a second club and facilitate trading between the two which will have to balance into DVC1. People won't realise this is happening.
I could be proven wrong but this is how many people think it must work.
They can't change the declaration of condominium for resale buyers unless it is the members interests. That is why they cannot and never will be able to stop resale in the original 14 trading into other resorts via the Club. By this I mean the DVC 1 club we all know now. The only way they can stop members trading into and out of the club is either to remove the resort entirely from the club so no-one can trade out, or set up a new club with new rules with background trading into each other which they control.

You are missing my point and something so many are.

Yes, there is an internal trading for each resort really. Your membership allows this trade. But they all participate and have in the same way, until RR. Disney Vacation Development, Inc. (“DVD”), a Florida corporation, is the developer of each of the Disney Vacation Club Resorts (“DVC Resorts”) that constitute the Disney Vacation Club (“DVC” or the “Club”). Buena Vista Trading Company (“BVTC”) falls under DVC. Aulani has Disney Vacation Club Hawaii Management Company, LLC (“DVCHMC”). Disney Vacation Club Management, LLC (“DVCMC”) is the management company for all of the DVC Resorts except the Aulani Resort.

Quoted info from below. So no, DVC2. There can be divisions beneath, but not the way DVC2 implies. It's all the same and they will restrict via RR and subsequent based on how they want to write it up.

https://disneyvacationclub.disney.go.com/media/dvc/en/_global/footer/Standard-Information-form-for-timeshare-contracts.pdf

 

[xdan0920]

I agree with @YorkshireT

This has to be a separate club. If it wasn’t, we would be seeing these restrictions across ALL resales. IMO.

 

[nickys]

I agree with @YorkshireT

This has to be a separate club. If it wasn’t, we would be seeing these restrictions across ALL resales. IMO.

Can you be more specific?

They can not restrict existing resales. And they are restricting all future resales. So I’m not clear what you mean.

 

[correcaminos]

I agree with this, given average length of ownership is said to be 10-15 years I bought and will always buy with a view to future value if I have to unload. I think Riviera resale (1 resort only) will attract a much lower resale value, I’m guessing about $70. Now assuming DVD do not ROFR every contract, if it is that low and it’s great it would possibly be worthwhile buying resale there.
Of course DVD expects to stamp out resale, or diminish it significantly, but if prices are low could it attract a whole new breed of value buyers or adders on, who are prepared to accept the restrictions for the low price? Maybe DVD will ROFR so many that they’ll prop the price up, but good luck in a recession with less buyers.

Just a thought. DVD may not want to completely Stamp Out resales. If they get enough new DVC members, who they don't have to give perks too, it would be actually beneficial to them. They already got the initial buying and they're getting the maintenance fees paid so it's not horrible for them to have resale owners out there as well.

 

[correcaminos]

I agree with @YorkshireT

This has to be a separate club. If it wasn’t, we would be seeing these restrictions across ALL resales. IMO.

Not true really. They cannot restrict existing resales on the legacy 14 without restricting direct from all I've seen. It's resort specific and unless they go back under the guise of beneficial to all owners they cannot retroactively change. They'd have a fight. As I said it can be done other ways but it's still all a DVC resort.

 

[xdan0920]

Can you be more specific?

They can not restrict existing resales. And they are restricting all future resales. So I’m not clear what you mean.

I mean. If they are able to do this with RR, restrict all resales to specific resort. Why not restrict all resales period to specific resorts?

 

[nickys]

I mean. If they are able to do this with RR, restrict all resales to specific resort. Why not restrict all resales period to specific resorts?

Because the rules for the existing resorts already exist and must apply to all owners. They cannot differentiate between direct and resale owners at existing resorts.

They can do so at Riviera because the rules for that resort have not been written yet.

 

[xdan0920]

Because the rules for the existing resorts already exist and must apply to all owners. They cannot differentiate between direct and resale owners at existing resorts.

They can do so at Riviera because the rules for that resort have not been written yet.

Exactly.

 

[correcaminos]

Because the rules for the existing resorts already exist and must apply to all owners. They cannot differentiate between direct and resale owners at existing resorts.

They can do so at Riviera because the rules for that resort have not been written yet.

This! ^^

This is what I meant by they cannot retroactively change the POS for the resort without real issues. At least in this current day. They'd have to restrict all at this point (both resale or direct) and that won't fly. I'm sure they could legally find a way to do it (always a loophole somewhere I am sure) but it wouldn't be done without a huge fight and there are wordings written in that would make it very difficult if not impossible (I'm not a lawyer but I never assume things are impossible lol).

They can very easily change wording and terms for a resort before it opens though.

But keeping this all in mind for future, buying where you want to stay will be more important than ever.

 

[xdan0920]

They can very easily change wording and terms for a resort before it opens though.

Are you sure about this? Have they ever done it before? Have there ever been any restrictions like this on any previous DVC? How do you square it now?

We all know Disney CAN do it. The only question is, the how. Many folks, as @YorkshireT has pointed out, believe that RR is the start of a subdivision(for lack of a better word) inside the existing DVC structure. Aka DVC 2.

 

[GoofGoof]

I wonder if the DVC component of these resorts is too "villa heavy" to sell effectively as cash rooms? I suppose that as an interim step it won't be that bad.

I'll go on the record with the idea that 20-some odd years from now, it may make financial sense to rebuild Beach Club or Boardwalk as higher density resorts. People already complain about how far some of the Boardwalk rooms are from the lobby. I wonder how high they can build without impacting sightlines? With the Skyliner at the International Gateway, they could recenter the resort rooms closer to the IG and maybe rethink the retail, restaurants, and activities of the boardwalk itself.

I say all this with a bit of sadness because I'm very fond of the Boardwalk concept and architecture. But maybe I won't live to see the destruction? :/

I think most Future DVC and hotels built at WDW will be taller and higher density. It’s much cheaper to build that way and more efficient to operate. Will they knock down existing buildings to build like that? Who knows. BCV is already 5 floors, could they double that? It would be a tall tower easily seen from the front of the resort. With BW I think it’s more likely to have a new high tower added. Knock down a section of the existing building and build up. The only issue (besides ruining a fantastic resort) is they would need to close down part or all of the resort during construction.

 

[correcaminos]

Are you sure about this? Have they ever done it before? Have there ever been any restrictions like this on any previous DVC? How do you square it now?

We all know Disney CAN do it. The only question is, the how. Many folks, as @YorkshireT has pointed out, believe that RR is the start of a subdivision(for lack of a better word) inside the existing DVC structure. Aka DVC 2.

I've been reading through a lot of the POSs lately. They mention resale even in them. Even addressed the lock off premium in some and not in others. So yeah, I think they can. The POS for a resort is very resort specific. They can write whatever they want in those.

So yes, they change wording all the time from resort to resort. Though usually not this big of a change. Like POS for monorail resorts even go into how the monorail is not guaranteed as part of the resort. They talk abut resort common areas too. The phases for each area etc.

I do believe, they would go back retroactively if they could for previous resorts, but they can't do that after it's written. They can add rooms to it, but the changing of a POS for a resort isn't really doable. That's why we're seeing it from Riviera forward.

Seriously though, the DVC2 thing is just too off for me. Call it BVTC2 but not DVC2. That means a whole different thing. However I'm not even sure it will be BVTC2 yet...

 

[GoofGoof]

If anyone isn’t sure whether Disney will resell the resorts when the contracts expire in 2042 here’s one big reason I think they will....almost 10M points (at the 3 WDW resorts) at today’s price of $200 is $2 billion in sales. Assuming the price goes up by 2042 it could be $3 to $4 billion in sales.