I keep thinking about buying more points and then also think about my Wyndham points. I have and will continue to buy annual passes so I get free parking. I have enough DVC points for my 4 to 5 trips a year now. I know I will want to stay longer once my wife retires and so more points would be nice but I could use my Wyndham points and stay at Bonnect Creek so I wonder is it worth it? Strictly from a financial view it's not worth it since I get all the benefits no matter where I stay. It I want more Wyndham points they cost almost nothing on Ebay.
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What will Disney do about the resorts expiring in 2042 ??
- Thread starter Naplesgolfer
- Start date
correcaminos
Well-Known Member
Actually I think that's not so much of a mess, as a smart move on their part financially. I would still buy points today. Doubt direct either and I honestly really don't care what they do. But I look at my DVC as ways to stay and enjoy it, not as an investment or the like. If I ever cannot or do no want to go to Disney as long as I can unload my points, I'm happy.
xdan0920
Think for yourselfer
I don't think it's a smart move to try and keep extracting money from already sold points. But what do I know.
xdan0920
Think for yourselfer
For really long time owners, you may be looking at 15 years for more then you paid for the original 40 or so.
correcaminos
Well-Known Member
So do you expect Disney to be okay with people not buying from them in the long term? At the beginning resale wasn't much of an issue for them. Now it is. That's why these are in place. You want full use? Pay up. You still get better use of your points than a lot of timeshares depending on where and how you buy.
Said as a direct and resale owner.
xdan0920
Think for yourselfer
Yes. I expect Disney to not try and extract more money out of already sold points. They have made their bucket loads of cash off of those points already. Now they are just sticking it to owners, those same owners who are their best customers and have been lining their coffers for years. It's a dirty move.
What I find odd is when moves like this get defended by the rank and file DVC owners. We aren't going to get a check in the mail from these profits. All this type of crap does is devalue our contracts. Why would you want that? It's bizarre.
correcaminos
Well-Known Member
I keep typing this and it sounds rude, and I really don't mean it to. You have every right to your opinion on this. I just happen to not agree
Disney is for profit, has always been for profit. Disney himself was rather ruthless. I think sometimes we get blinded by pixie dust so to speak. I suppose I don't expect much out of them any longer, but my contacts have been long paid for and I've gotten quite a lot of use out of them already. I didn't buy in to make money or make an investment. I did it to get a good deal on rooms long term. I've got that. I really don't care any longer if things are 'devalued' and as long as I can dump my points if I decide I no longer want them, that's good. I'm not here to make money on any of this. That said for the time, I don't see use needing to dump points so it's all mute. It's a timeshare though... that in itself makes it something that I don't assume should have value upon resale.
eliza61nyc
Well-Known Member
I keep typing this and it sounds rude, and I really don't mean it to. You have every right to your opinion on this. I just happen to not agree
Disney is for profit, has always been for profit. Disney himself was rather ruthless. I think sometimes we get blinded by pixie dust so to speak. I suppose I don't expect much out of them any longer, but my contacts have been long paid for and I've gotten quite a lot of use out of them already. I didn't buy in to make money or make an investment. I did it to get a good deal on rooms long term. I've got that. I really don't care any longer if things are 'devalued' and as long as I can dump my points if I decide I no longer want them, that's good. I'm not here to make money on any of this. That said for the time, I don't see use needing to dump points so it's all mute. It's a timeshare though... that in itself makes it something that I don't assume should have value upon resale.
Please keep retyping this because I think it's some thing that people fail to get and then get upset. They are not to be used as money makers, they are prepaid lodgings. The value is in USING them, not in the making profit.
Owners are not "owed" any thing outside of the future use of accommodations paid for at todays (or whenever one purchased) dollars.
I haven't been to a presentation in a while but I do remember cringing at the marriot timeshare presentation because they keep yammering on about resale value.
Disney is a business (another point people seem to forget) and they are protecting their product. there isn't any "devaluation" because the value is in the ability to use lodgings. They have every right to resell my points after my contract with them is up. I will have gotten the intended value from it.
If i sold today and all I got was 20 bucks, I would have still gotten the full value since i've taken a boatload of trips with cheap accommodations.
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xdan0920
Think for yourselfer
It's my opinion that DVC should act in the best interests of it's members. You don't share that opinion? You believe they should act in the best interests of a multibillion dollar media conglomerate? That's your opinion?I keep typing this and it sounds rude, and I really don't mean it to. You have every right to your opinion on this. I just happen to not agree
Disney is for profit, has always been for profit. Disney himself was rather ruthless. I think sometimes we get blinded by pixie dust so to speak. I suppose I don't expect much out of them any longer, but my contacts have been long paid for and I've gotten quite a lot of use out of them already. I didn't buy in to make money or make an investment. I did it to get a good deal on rooms long term. I've got that. I really don't care any longer if things are 'devalued' and as long as I can dump my points if I decide I no longer want them, that's good. I'm not here to make money on any of this. That said for the time, I don't see use needing to dump points so it's all mute. It's a timeshare though... that in itself makes it something that I don't assume should have value upon resale.
xdan0920
Think for yourselfer
Technically they owe us more then that.
eliza61nyc
Well-Known Member
What else? seriously. I haven't read my contract in 20 years (since I first purchased) but my understanding was I purchased points to basically be used as accommodations.
Just a brief google search turned up this.
the Disney Vacation Club (DVC) is a vacation timeshare program owned and operated by Disney Vacation Development, Inc., a subsidiary of Disney Signature Experiences, a division of Walt Disney Parks, Experiences and Consumer Products, a segment of The Walt Disney Company.
Now I don't think it's an "either/or" proposition but I would think their first fiduciary responsibility would be to WD parks, experiences and consumer products. again I'm guessing just from a quick google search. I guess I should dust off my copy of the agreement, lol gotta find it.
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correcaminos
Well-Known Member
I think they are a business first. I have read the POSs so many times lately I'm likely more 'clinical' now in what they do. TBH I don't see what resale has to do with members really. I want them to treat the resorts right and follow the POS as long as I am a member. If I am selling, they don't need to care about me or those who buy my old contract. JMO of course.
Very much how I feel. I think sometimes because it is Disney people expect more. Of course some also expect more because people feel entitled to things that they may or really be 'entitled' to. That's not directed at anyone in particular though. Just observations.
You can imagine that in 15 years with some really awesome stays, that I think I'm already out ahead as well.
xdan0920
Think for yourselfer
FWIW I am way ahead. My family is DVC charter members, and I bought in over 15 years ago myself. I expect more because they used to do more. Things have changed, and not for the better.
correcaminos
Well-Known Member
FWIW I am way ahead. My family is DVC charter members, and I bought in over 15 years ago myself. I expect more because they used to do more. Things have changed, and not for the better.
They used to do more? I beg to differ on this. For members when we bought in (15 years here too) they offered very little. I think they've done more for members than they did then. Granted likely more was done when your family had bought in with the tickets and such, but those days ended quickly too.
GoofGoof
Premium Member
I will throw my 2 cents into this debate. I really don’t care what Disney does to the resale market as long as I can still resell my points if I choose to. Benefits for future resale owners are irrelevant to me. I have all the points I will ever want or need so I will never be a new resale owner again. So far all of the restrictions on resale buyers has not slowed the resale market much so it doesn’t impact me.
I do believe that it is actually a benefit to us as current owners that Disney is actively selling new direct points and at an Increasing price. The more they ask for direct points the more benefits we are likely to get because they also use those benefits in the sales pitch. I know they aren’t guaranteed to last, but it helps sell the points when people start factoring in AP and food/merchandise discounts. Disney makes a huge windfall of profits from selling DVC so the cost of the perks to owners is a drop in the bucket compared to the profits. If the perks help sell the points they will continue. If we ever get to the point where Disney stops selling DVC points I would imagine the member discounts and perks will dry up too. They may not go away completely but heavily reduced.
I do believe that it is actually a benefit to us as current owners that Disney is actively selling new direct points and at an Increasing price. The more they ask for direct points the more benefits we are likely to get because they also use those benefits in the sales pitch. I know they aren’t guaranteed to last, but it helps sell the points when people start factoring in AP and food/merchandise discounts. Disney makes a huge windfall of profits from selling DVC so the cost of the perks to owners is a drop in the bucket compared to the profits. If the perks help sell the points they will continue. If we ever get to the point where Disney stops selling DVC points I would imagine the member discounts and perks will dry up too. They may not go away completely but heavily reduced.
Lensman
Well-Known Member
I've always liked the now old-fashioned notion of corporate management balancing the needs of customers, employees, and shareholders, with a nod to other stakeholders like the community and society. I also think there's nothing bad about the newer notion of the customer-centric corporation where delighting the customer is the management goal and increased shareholder value is a consequence rather than a strategy.
I also see decreased resale value as a minus to current owners. You can mitigate it a by choosing not to sell, but I always think of liquidity as a good thing and so knowing that if I did sell it would be for less is a bad thing. And I could certainly imagine that other owners would be less willing or able to hold DVC to the end of the contract, so I am even more inclined to view such erosions of value as bad for others, if not me.
But do you care if the changes impact the price that you sell your points for in the future? I would.
An interesting point, but I'm not sure what tangible benefits you're talking about. I think I can see how increased direct pricing has increased resale prices. I see that increased resale pricing as having some value to me even though I don't intend to sell anytime soon. And if one says that one doesn't care whether resale prices go down, I think one also has to say that one doesn't care whether resale prices go up, right?
Anyway, I'm not quite sure what this all had to do with our fun speculation about what will happen to the 2042 resorts.
GoofGoof
Premium Member
I don’t see the changes making a meaningful downward decrease in resale value. Any decrease in desireability for resale points due to lack of benefits seems to be more than offset by the increase in resale value due to direct prices going up. In other words they keep trying to make resale less desirable but as long as direct prices increase resale will follow. So in a long winded way my answer is yes, I care but I just don’t see these limits on resale making a major impact. The most recent one with Riviera actually makes my BLT points more valuable.
The tangible benefits I am talking about are the membership magic things. Extra member benefits like AP discounts, food and dining discounts, moonlight magic, pool hopping, member lounges at EPCOT and BLT, etc... Most of these items have a direct cost to Disney. These may just be kind gestures to loyal guests, but from a more cynical point of view they are great selling features Disney uses to sell DVC points. As a current owner I’m glad to take advantage of these benefits and I hope they continue. I feel like the benefits have been getting better since I’ve been a member and I think there’s at least some correlation to the increased direct sales prices. So in a convoluted way I am happy to see Disney continue to successfully sell direct points even at highly inflated prices. Not because I care how much profit they make, but because I indirectly benefit from perks that may not exist if they weren’t trying to sell those points.An interesting point, but I'm not sure what tangible benefits you're talking about. I think I can see how increased direct pricing has increased resale prices. I see that increased resale pricing as having some value to me even though I don't intend to sell anytime soon. And if one says that one doesn't care whether resale prices go down, I think one also has to say that one doesn't care whether resale prices go up, right?
Anyway, I'm not quite sure what this all had to do with our fun speculation about what will happen to the 2042 resorts.
correcaminos
Well-Known Member
I've always liked the now old-fashioned notion of corporate management balancing the needs of customers, employees, and shareholders, with a nod to other stakeholders like the community and society. I also think there's nothing bad about the newer notion of the customer-centric corporation where delighting the customer is the management goal and increased shareholder value is a consequence rather than a strategy.
I also see decreased resale value as a minus to current owners. You can mitigate it a by choosing not to sell, but I always think of liquidity as a good thing and so knowing that if I did sell it would be for less is a bad thing. And I could certainly imagine that other owners would be less willing or able to hold DVC to the end of the contract, so I am even more inclined to view such erosions of value as bad for others, if not me.
But do you care if the changes impact the price that you sell your points for in the future? I would.
An interesting point, but I'm not sure what tangible benefits you're talking about. I think I can see how increased direct pricing has increased resale prices. I see that increased resale pricing as having some value to me even though I don't intend to sell anytime soon. And if one says that one doesn't care whether resale prices go down, I think one also has to say that one doesn't care whether resale prices go up, right?
Anyway, I'm not quite sure what this all had to do with our fun speculation about what will happen to the 2042 resorts.
The thing about DVC is that this is a timeshare. The longer I own, the more I realize that this isn't an asset in the traditional sense. There will be a time when it is worthless really in terms of assets. I do think this is a fallacy most owners have. We're not talking a piece of property we own, we're talking a diminishing value item. So you talk of liquidity, I think of "can I unload if needed?" and not about what I'll get back. Not at this point.
The future is going to devalue resorts on its own. That's something we all need to reconcile with. This product has a limited time of actual value before it declines and on a regular basis too.
I know 2042 is a while from now, but all these 2042 resorts will become less and less valuable. In 15 years we'll be at the lower end of the cycle and nothing we can do will ever bring up the value.
Lensman
Well-Known Member
I think you mean a timeshare isn't like a real estate asset with substantial value represented in land. Most physical assets have a limited lifespan like a timeshare - a car or boat for instance. Let's take the example of a car that you buy to use every day or so. It has declining value and will eventually become worthless except for certain rare edge cases that we don't need to discuss. Yet resale value is something that some people do take into account. It even has interesting properties similar to DVC where buying resale is often described as smarter than buying "new" from the dealer because the value drops so much the moment you "drive it off the lot".
However, there are obviously differences between a car and a timeshare resort.
Anyway, the point of the analogy is that I don't think it's necessary to call anyone who considers resale value to hold a nonsensical position. It's just a position that is different from yours. I'm not saying that someone who ignores resale value is wrong, just like my sister isn't wrong for saying that she doesn't care about the resale value of her house because she intends to live in it for the rest of her life.
And I'll repeat what I've said in other threads, I agree that it makes little sense to consider DVC as a financial investment. I mean, you can, but it would generally be considered a poor one.
I also agree that the resale value of the 2042 resorts has to start declining at some point as we get closer to 2042. I'm frankly amazed that resale prices have kept going up for so long.
correcaminos
Well-Known Member
I think you mean a timeshare isn't like a real estate asset with substantial value represented in land. Most physical assets have a limited lifespan like a timeshare - a car or boat for instance. Let's take the example of a car that you buy to use every day or so. It has declining value and will eventually become worthless except for certain rare edge cases that we don't need to discuss. Yet resale value is something that some people do take into account. It even has interesting properties similar to DVC where buying resale is often described as smarter than buying "new" from the dealer because the value drops so much the moment you "drive it off the lot".
However, there are obviously differences between a car and a timeshare resort.
Anyway, the point of the analogy is that I don't think it's necessary to call anyone who considers resale value to hold a nonsensical position. It's just a position that is different from yours. I'm not saying that someone who ignores resale value is wrong, just like my sister isn't wrong for saying that she doesn't care about the resale value of her house because she intends to live in it for the rest of her life.
And I'll repeat what I've said in other threads, I agree that it makes little sense to consider DVC as a financial investment. I mean, you can, but it would generally be considered a poor one.
I also agree that the resale value of the 2042 resorts has to start declining at some point as we get closer to 2042. I'm frankly amazed that resale prices have kept going up for so long.
I was on my tablet when I wrote that, but I do believe I said piece of property. At least here piece of property is used to talk about real estate (land, homes, etc). I've never heard of that referring to a car or boat, so yes, I meant actual land. We have a lease with a timeshare. Not a piece of land. We cannot confuse it for that. Granted homes and land can go down in value, but it's not a sure thing. Limited time leases are a sure thing.
So the car analogy is not at all what I had in mind when thinking of piece of property - though it is closer to a time share in terms of value (unless you have a real special car).