what ever happened with project gemini?

[dox]

Lee - - you made some excellent points.

I also will add that as much as my family and I loved Epcot, there was never really anything that futuristic about Future World with the exception of The Land. Innoventions at least tried to bring the current cutting edge technology to Epcot, but as we all know it is impossible to keep up with all the constant change in this day and age. As much as I love SSE and the now defunct WOM, what is/was futuristic about those attractions? SSE and WoM both have simple endings about the future while the remainder of the attraction dealt with the past. The only attraction that really embraced the future was Horizons and The Land. I really believe that Mission Space, Test Track and The Land are far more cutting edge in the use of technology and thus more futuristic than anything at Epcot. People have always made fun of the term "future world" since epcot opened and it is time 20 years later to change that misleading name.

Many of the ideas posted about PG on Jim Hill are quite ridiculous (e.g. rainforest roller coaster, jr. autotopia) and seeing SSE leave would be incredibly sad. It really is a centerpiece attraction and helps bring into focus many of the themes explored throughout epcot. That being said, I'm sure what ever replaces it will still carry the same weight and significance as they really have no choice. The geosphere still remains the symbol of epcot and there is no way they would alter it's theme very much.

People should realize that there are some positive things about PG too. I for one would love to see CoP get a final home, LIving Seas get an update, the whole innoventions/communicore area get an update. I for one would also like to see UofE get some changes too and some new attractions in the WS.

But ultimately Lee, you're right for now take everything with a grain of salt and don't worry.

 

[pyschotropic]

I think that Epcot is a great park personally I think it's slowly turning into grounds for Imagineers to start developing some really high tech futuristic thrillrides and I think we will see more rides like Test Track and Mission Space going into Epcot in the near future. The Magic Kingdom is a classic Disney knows their is really no point in changing perfection as this park has had years to develop and adding a new attraction once in a while is really all they need to do with the Magic Kingdom. Animal Kingdom has lacked some attention but it is still fairly new and I think by adding Expedition Everest they have really discovered a new way to add thrilling attractions to the park we'll definitely see some innovation here in the Future. And as far as MGM studios we'll
all I can say is that it lacks everything a movie studio themepark should Universal has got them beat on that one with one amazing exception being the Tower of Terror, also next year when Universal opens Revenge of the Mummy giving them a major thrill ride like the Twilight Zone Disney is going to need some major attractions and major attraction changes at MGM but that's just my opnion!

 

[General Grizz]

I don't really want to go into it that much...I've discussed this for a while...but I do want to debate a little with this post:

Originally posted by dox
As much as I love SSE and the now defunct WOM, what is/was futuristic about those attractions?

Everything - and more! I would consider watching videos, listening to audio - the works. Both of these attractions are the epitome of the celebration human achievement and progress as we move forward. Massive sections of both these attractions - the most inpsiring portions - deal with the FUTURE. Take the scene after the 30s in Spaceship Earth...and move forward. Then, take the scene following the speedrooms in World of Motion...and move forward.

Out of ANYWHERE in EPCOT, Spaceship Earth, World of Motion, and Horizons had/have the most inspiring outlook on the future. It's still there...in that giant geosphere.

It's somewhat ironic. The replacement of the World of Motion has no such direction. Remember the TransCenter? The most place most photographed in Disney World that displayed the future of motion after the ride? It's now a big ad for GM...and is just one of the minor parts of EPCOT that shows change but not progress.

OK, I'm done. Gonna go have some dinner now... Thanks for your points, everyone.

 

[General Grizz]

Originally posted by pjammer
Also AT&T no longer sponsors Spaceship Earth. The fact that it still says AT&T all over the attraction is not proof that AT&T still sponsor it. Ask any cast member at Spaceship Earth and they will tell you that AT&T is no longer the sponsor. I've seen the memo AT&T sent to all they employees saying that effective at the end of Januarary 2003 AT&T would no longer sponsor Spaceship Earth.

Ask around right now...

I knew about this, it was in the papers, everything. However, AT&T, according to many, has signed on for another year (well, I guess, for a remaining few months) - none of the ads have been taken off since January.

I am going to dig deeper into this, and hopefully provide some more information.

UPDATE: Along with the EPCOT Cast Members, WDW Information has also reported that AT&T has decided to continue to sponsor Spaceship Earth.

 

[General Grizz]

OK...a few more things:

Originally posted by dox
...attraction dealt with the past.

But remember, this is nothing that EPCOT should ever consider being ashamed of. Without knowing your past, you don't know where you're going!

Originally posted by dox
Many of the ideas posted about PG on Jim Hill are quite ridiculous (e.g. rainforest roller coaster...)

Yup...and that's why I'm not too happy about it...the fact that it's ridiculous! ... remember the laughing dragons in Fantasia 2000.

Originally posted by dox
That being said, I'm sure what ever replaces it will still carry the same weight and significance as they really have no choice.

I hope so too, but you never know...they've done it before with so many other attractions, that I frankly can't give enough "trust" to the company.

Originally posted by dox
I for one would love to see CoP get a final home..

Oh, I could hope!

 

[General Grizz]

Originally posted by Poncho1973
Mission:Space is a wonderful thing.
Test Track is a wonderful thing.
The new Imagination is a wonderful thing.

I would consider going to "Imagination! Discoveries (Part 3): The Wrap Up" in General Discussion.

I beg to differ...

 

[Buzzy989]

The Changing Nature of EPCOT. . .

After reading through this entire thread, I have synthesized my own ideas regarding the future developments at EPCOT. First of all, let me say that Project Gemini could be one of the greatest phases in the park's history. . .any updates to a park dedicated to celebrating visions of tomorrow could spark the minds and hearts of new generations of EPCOT guests. "Soarin' Over," for instance, could still convey the central values of conservation and respect for the land, yet also present entire new vistas of our planet's terrain and incorporate more innovative technologies (and even a few thrilling moments). This could be considered a mark of progress over a show like, say, "Circle of Life". . .both in the potential story and in the means of storytelling.

By this same token, all other "Gemini Projects" should enhance the EPCOT family experience while still staying true to the central values which have guided the park. All EPCOT experiences should be absolutely unique, prodding the mind and spirit in one-of-a-kind ways. But cautious observers of the promises of Gemini have been concerned with this very point; although EPCOT surely should not be full of permanent exhibits, the new attractions on the horizon should retain the moral, educational, and aesthetic threads of their predecessors while still making progress in ride technology and showmanship. Lee expresses it best when commenting,

"Do I want a coaster in Spaceship Earth? No.

Do I want to see Spaceship Earth receive a makeover that would include an updated story, effects, vehicles, and just maybe a higher excitement factor? You bet.

Change can be good."

Change can certainly be good, and those of us thrill-seekers who hastily scorn "Anti-Gemini" folks should pause. . . .maybe they're not truly "Anti-Gemini," but rather fear that the new additions may be "Anti-EPCOT." Spaceship Earth is the last remaining ride of its breed. . .in the intense historical research invested in the production period, the artistic majesty and sensory detail of the attraction, and the sheer magic produced by a ride throughout the entire "sphere," the Spaceship Earth attraction is like none other in any park, anywhere. Spaceship Earth brings audiences into direct contact with historical scenes and experiences, something which the "screen technology" that Time Racers may feature cannot do. Let "Soarin' Over" and "Mission:SPACE" (not to exclude Mickey's Philharmagic) present the screen technologies of the coming era. The drama of SE's finale continues to strike a chord within me every visit, as I'm sure it does to most receptive guests of any age.

Should Spaceship Earth, as it exists, be preserved forever? Of course not. But the attraction that replaces SE should be able to stand tall as EPCOT's signature showcase. . .not only in its technological progress, but also in its genuine heart and means of storytelling. And this urges me to respond to a question raised by Dox: "What is futuristic about this attraction?" One of the cornerstones of EPCOT, presented in nearly all of its premiere pavilions, is the experience of "looking back at tomorrow." In such an experience, guests not only absorb a lighthearted history lesson, but also gain insight into mankind's creative process and natural urge for innovation. You know, what makes our gears tick. True, much of the hallmark Future World pavilion is set not in the future, but in the past. . .but Spaceship Earth, as the ride which most guests ride first, stands as a prelude of all of the discoveries which lie ahead. EPCOT's "prelude" should be able to be enjoyed by all audiences, and a thrill-ride replacement (not all good replacement attractions need to be thrills, you know!) may impede this vital role of Spaceship Earth. Human communication is a timeless tale which stands at the core of EPCOT's exchanges of information and experience. . .and the "Anti-Gemini" crew, I'm sure, wants to make sure that any new attraction does justice to this theme.

I think that pjammer comes very close to expressing the heart of the EPCOT experience when stating,

"Epcot's atmosphere is more than just learning. . .it's a laid-back atmosphere where you can just relax instead of worrying about the hustle of trying to do everything or waiting in long lines like at the MK. Adding a bunch of "thrill" stuff will take away from that and totally ruin that atmosphere."

EPCOT, by far, is more sophisticated than the other parks. The guests generally gain a great deal of inspiration and insight after visiting, accounting for the park's top Consumer Reports' rating. Honestly, we see that the Magic Kingdom speaks mainly to our youth (and the youth within us), while Animal Kingdom targets adventure-seekers and the Disney-MGM Studios has more teenage appeal. EPCOT has the unique ability to connect with all of humanity on a very sophisticated level, illustrating many of our hopes and urges for the future. EPCOT, at its most crowded, can be very airy and open. . .try making a visit to Future World West (The Land, JII, Seas). The aesthetic value there is futuristic in itself. . .as well as "relaxing," as pjammer puts it. By adding an open-air thrill like Rainforest Rollercoaster, this atmosphere would be in grave danger - - the symmetry would disappear, and the serenity would vanish. It's not surprising that, according to Lee, the attraction has faced some opposition within the Company. But I have been informed (during an WDW visit, actually) that the attraction will very likely appear within the decade on that side of the park.

DisneyDawg expresses this emotion when declaring, "I don't like the idea of a rain forest coaster or Junior Autopia. One of the things I've always liked about Epcot is that all of the rides (except TT) are completely enclosed. For me this gives them some mystique. I would hate to see a roller coaster standing in the middle of Epcot. I know WDI doesn't just put up cookie cutter coasters but the idea still sounds wrong to me. Junior Autopia seems like a waste of space with a similar attraction just a park away."

These new attractions may whittle away at the core values of the park. . .while good EPCOT attractions don't necessarily need to be completely enclosed (World of Motion wasn't), DisneyDawg acknowledges the basic aesthetic virtues of the park, as well as the importance of unique, creative attractions. EPCOT is not like any of the other Disney parks in its inspiration and in its experience; as DisneyJill remarked, EPCOT may not be the place for at least some of the Gemini creations and concepts.

This is the central question at hand: Are the attractions in the works for Project Gemini so outstanding and inspiring that WDI is determined to find a home for them at EPCOT? Or are these attractions just intended to give the park a fix-up?

I believe that if the Disney Company continued to incorporate stellar attractions into EPCOT, such as the modern Mission:SPACE and the classic American Adventure, EPCOT will just change on its own. Progress will be reflected as it happens. The park should not be crowded up with new ideas and attractions (i.e., the fate of Future World West) when the passing of time will give EPCOT whatever face it will tend to assume. The external decor can use some updating and refurbishing here and there. . .but there is no need to "change the entire face of the park," as Project Gemini intends to do. EPCOT, now, is flexible enough to adopt a variety of faces. . .consider how gracefully the Millennium Celebration fit into the current molding of the park! EPCOT is truly a treasure. . .as it is directly inspired by Walt Disney and engineered by creative geniuses, we mustn't allow Project Gemini to compromise the park's essence. True, it's hard work to update the park when its mission is so great, so demanding. It takes creativity, a sense of humor, and genuine heart. . .elements not present in what seems to be a primarily economic motive.

But is Disney up to the real challenge? We'll see. . .

 

[General Grizz]

Re: The Changing Nature of EPCOT. . .

Originally posted by Buzzy989
All EPCOT experiences should be absolutely unique, prodding the mind and spirit in one-of-a-kind ways. But cautious observers of the promises of Gemini have been concerned with this very point; although EPCOT surely should not be full of permanent exhibits, the new attractions on the horizon should retain the moral, educational, and aesthetic threads of their predecessors while still making progress in ride technology and showmanship.

Bullseye...

 

[DarkMeasures]

Cause it is a great big beautiful tommorow.

The Rainforest Rollercoaster could actually add more serenity to that side of Epcot while providing a much more grand entrance to The Land.

B&M has found techniques in which quiets down the rollercoaster by some. And then if this ride is set in the Rainforest, then wont all the trees block the veiw of the ride. I am sure the ride can be built where it does not go above tree level. Has anyone heard of the rollercoaster 'Nemesis'?

More hidden sound barriors could easily be added within the trees and if these techniques are used on the ride, there will be a nice appeal with no cookie cuttor or eye sore.

This ride could also bring shade and comfort for the midday sun. Another thing is Rainforest means rain right?

I am sure there will be lost of mist machines making it appear to have been raining.

There are a lot of possiblities with this ride and if it is done right, then this ride would be a nice welcome to the park.
---
Another note:
Building Time Racers does not mean that Spaceship Earth would be torn down. Not a single imagineer or executive would ever do that. Time racers would just replace the track in the current ride.

 

[Buzzy989]

First of all, I suppose I need to clarify one point. DarkMeasure states,

"Building Time Racers does not mean that Spaceship Earth would be torn down. Not a single imagineer or executive would ever do that. Time racers would just replace the track in the current ride."

When I referred to the value of Spaceship Earth, I never actually referred to the exterior structure. . .its permanence is secure. The value of the internal attraction is what my previous post mainly concerns.

Your points about Rainforest Rollercoaster are interesting. Yet it would be wishful thinking to believe that an added rollercoaster would not affect the quality of Future World West. These are the major points I had made in a previous post:

----------------------------------------------

"The general interests of the public are certainly becoming more diverse, no longer able to find all of the satisfaction they need within a single theme park. Expedition Everest and Rock 'n Roller Coaster are out-and-out roller coasters which remain consistent with the values of their respective parks. . .the Everest coaster will be contained in its massive mountain structure, and Rock 'n Roller Coaster is certainly an appropriate attraction for the Disney MGM Studios, which has become the favorite park for many teen thrill seekers, I believe. EPCOT, unlike the other parks, has traditionally spoken to all of humanity -- all guests -- at once, and its attractions have traditionally combined concern for technological uniqueness and progress, the inspiration of park guests, and harmony with the surrounding environment. Rainforest Rollercoaster violates these core principles. . .so this is not a matter of whether or not the attraction will be economically successful, but whether it will contribute to the integrity of a park which stands a head above the others in its mission. A outdoors roller coaster in Future World West would violate each of these concepts/values:

1) The tranquility of Future World West (something visionary in its own right), the stunning symmetry of this side of the park, and the park's overall aesthetic quality. Based on current ride plans, the roller coaster will likely be circling in FRONT of The Land pavilion, taking away severely from the beauty and dignity of the pavilion.

2) The structure of the park may be redefined. . .the Rainforest Rollercoaster could possibly violate the concept of a tightly-knit, World's Fair-style pavilion, altering a structure that is timeless and works well with park guests. The coaster will likely gain some independence from The Land, damaging this park value.

3) This attraction would possibly have to occupy the space of a current land attraction. . .the traditional family-oriented humor of an attraction like Circle of Life, which educates and entertains to great extents, would have to be abandoned for an attraction that is limited in its audience scope, is not as purposefully educational, and is not as socially constructive in the values it communicates. The vast majority of riders will ride for the sheer thrill -- and such thrill diverts from the educational potential and, in this case, would not likely be conducted in the very sophisticated tradition of Mission:SPACE (for instance). Messages of land preservation will be diluted -- vital concepts which could be more meaningfully dealt with in a ride or show which does not violate all of these time-honored EPCOT principles!"

----------------------------------------------

Well, #3 is by far the most important of these three objections.

A roller coaster seems to be a relative easy fix for an economic problem. . .Rainforest Rollercoaster, after all, will be designed to be an "ATTRACTion." But Imagineering is surely capable of facing the challenge of creating a humorous, lighthearted, but inspiring attraction to add to The Land during its rehab. The Disney Co. can surely do something unique which will provide good balance against the thrills of Soarin' Over, Mission:SPACE, and Test Track. The genuinely lighthearted attractions seem to be dissolving without due replacements. . .Cranium Command (along with the rest of Wonders of Life) will likely be shut down for good with no plans for rehab, and Food Rocks and Circle of Life **could** both be phased out with the rehab to The Land. Project Gemini just seems to be a little over the edge. Sure, it will be successful with a younger crowd of park guests. But it will quite possibly damage what we all uphold and revere as EPCOT.

 

[Lee]

Just to chime in...

Soarin' is not exactly a "thrill" attraction. It should not be considered as being in the same vein as Test Track or Mission:Space. The minimum height is only 42 inches, which would allow kids as young as 5 or so. Also, I have ridden it next to folks in their sixties, and they had a great time. The ride is actually very refreshing and relaxing.

When Soarin' does arrive, it is almost certainly going to go in the Land area (unless a WS country decides to pony up the cash). For the sake of capacity, two theatres are required, and they are LARGE. This attraction will not fit in the existing Land building, and would require a new structure to be built.
From what I can tell, with the size required for Soarin, I don't see any way a coaster can go into the Land area. There is just no room for both, while keeping any sort of flow to the area.

Here's a photo of The Land from backstage. See what I mean about room?
http://www.disneypix.com/2000ft/Roll2/Roll02_020.htm

Now here's a shot of Soarin', taken from the Sun Wheel
http://www.mouseinfo.com/photo.php?...r/DSC01612.JPG&cap=A+view+from+the+Sun+Wheell

How do ya'll see that and a coaster going aroung the Land?
Can't do both, if you ask me.

(Buzzy989, who told you the coaster was coming? A CM? That info clashes with what I am hearing. My understanding is that Soarin' would trump the coaster for that area. The coaster is not
a popular concept at all within the company.
DarkMeasures, yes B&M can make a quiet coaster, but they ain't gonna make one for Disney.)

 

[djmatthews]

I think there are many people resistant to change. However, EPCOT has falling attendance, so it needs to change. I don't think the average guest is happy with EPCOT anymore. It is dated, regardless of what us Disney hacks think. The vision of Future World is very short sighted now. We cannot keep up with technology. The only thing that is really keeping up at EPCOT is Innovations - and much of this is sponsored.

I welcome Project Gemini if it brings people back to the park, otherwise numbers will fall and fall, and if M:S is part of the project, then I feel that Project Gemini will be great.

 

[pjammer]

Re: The Changing Nature of EPCOT. . .

Originally posted by Buzzy989
Change can certainly be good, and those of us thrill-seekers who hastily scorn "Anti-Gemini" folks should pause. . . .maybe they're not truly "Anti-Gemini," but rather fear that the new additions may be "Anti-EPCOT." Spaceship Earth is the last remaining ride of its breed. . .in the intense historical research invested in the production period, the artistic majesty and sensory detail of the attraction, and the sheer magic produced by a ride throughout the entire "sphere," the Spaceship Earth attraction is like none other in any park, anywhere. Spaceship Earth brings audiences into direct contact with historical scenes and experiences, something which the "screen technology" that Time Racers may feature cannot do. Let "Soarin' Over" and "Mission:SPACE" (not to exclude Mickey's Philharmagic) present the screen technologies of the coming era. The drama of SE's finale continues to strike a chord within me every visit, as I'm sure it does to most receptive guests of any age.

Should Spaceship Earth, as it exists, be preserved forever? Of course not. But the attraction that replaces SE should be able to stand tall as EPCOT's signature showcase. . .not only in its technological progress, but also in its genuine heart and means of storytelling. And this urges me to respond to a question raised by Dox: "What is futuristic about this attraction?" One of the cornerstones of EPCOT, presented in nearly all of its premiere pavilions, is the experience of "looking back at tomorrow." In such an experience, guests not only absorb a lighthearted history lesson, but also gain insight into mankind's creative process and natural urge for innovation. You know, what makes our gears tick. True, much of the hallmark Future World pavilion is set not in the future, but in the past. . .but Spaceship Earth, as the ride which most guests ride first, stands as a prelude of all of the discoveries which lie ahead. EPCOT's "prelude" should be able to be enjoyed by all audiences, and a thrill-ride replacement (not all good replacement attractions need to be thrills, you know!) may impede this vital role of Spaceship Earth. Human communication is a timeless tale which stands at the core of EPCOT's exchanges of information and experience. . .and the "Anti-Gemini" crew, I'm sure, wants to make sure that any new attraction does justice to this theme.

I never heard it put better! I honestly wouldn't mind a replacement for Spaceship Earth if they could do it justice...but I don't think that they can. After seeing some of the latest ride "updates or rehabs" like Journey into Imagination or Enchanted Tiki Room, Im afraid of what Disney will or might do to Spaceship Earth. Therefore I would much rather see a rehab like they did in 94. Keep most of the ride intact, replace the track and update some of the future stuff. That would make me happy knowing that the ride would be almost the same. Not something totally new or different that might do the orginal no justice.

Also Lee...You say "Soarin" height requirment is "only 42 inches." Well Test Track is "only" 40 inches. So if 40 is enough to seperate alot of families then 42 is going to seperate even more.

 

[pjammer]

Originally posted by djmatthews
I think there are many people resistant to change. However, EPCOT has falling attendance, so it needs to change. I don't think the average guest is happy with EPCOT anymore. It is dated, regardless of what us Disney hacks think. The vision of Future World is very short sighted now. We cannot keep up with technology. The only thing that is really keeping up at EPCOT is Innovations - and much of this is sponsored.

That may be your opinion. But Epcot has the second highest attendance. Magic Kingdom being the first. MGM is the park that has been suffering the highest percent of falling attendance. Plus the average guest has marked Epcot as the most satisfing park. These are all facts that can be backed up.

 

[djmatthews]

Originally posted by pjammer
That may be your opinion. But Epcot has the second highest attendance. Magic Kingdom being the first. MGM is the park that has been suffering the highest percent of falling attendance. Plus the average guest has marked Epcot as the most satisfing park. These are all facts that can be backed up.

OK, fair enough, maybe I'm wrong, I'm sure I read that somewhere.

 

[Pumbas Nakasak]

IMHO;

Change will be OK providing
they follow the following premise with any new attraction, inovative, original, built with original Disney class and properly funded throughout.

I want more things to do not replacements, if things are to be replaced lets have something new in before the replacement begins.

 

[Lee]

Re: Re: The Changing Nature of EPCOT. . .

Originally posted by pjammer Also Lee...You say "Soarin" height requirment is "only 42 inches." Well Test Track is "only" 40 inches. So if 40 is enough to seperate alot of families then 42 is going to seperate even more.

Nah, those 2 inches will not make a whole lot if difference. Most of the guests who want to ride will be able to. The rest can child swap. What Soarin' will do is allow the older age group who don't ride Test Track or M:S to ride. It is very suitable for the 60+ age group. That should compensate for the exclusion of the little ankle-biters.:animwink:

One thing that is deceiving about the polls that say that EPCOT was the most satisfying park, is that the surveys were mostly filled out by adults. It makes sense that people of the 35 and over group would find EPCOT more satisfying than MK or MGM.
If kids and teens were to respond, the results might move around a bit. Few kids like EPCOT better than MK. Its the parents.

As for EPCOT's high attendance, it is directly related to the park's size and number of attractions/shops/dining. It simply has the advantage over MGM and AK. I would like to see it broken down on a per capita sort of basis, based on the relative number of attractions, etc.

 

[General Grizz]

Re: Re: The Changing Nature of EPCOT. . .

Originally posted by pjammer
I honestly wouldn't mind a replacement for Spaceship Earth if they could do it justice...but I don't think that they can. After seeing some of the latest ride "updates or rehabs" like Journey into Imagination or Enchanted Tiki Room, Im afraid of what Disney will or might do to Spaceship Earth.

Bingo. This statement, describing trust in updates, can be paralleled to EPCOT more specifically:

1. Journey into Imagination
Only half the track is used. The quality was destroyed, replaced by black space and simple sets. Although the current attraction SHOULD BE COMMENDED based on the prior, as it stands, it is not a "Disney cutting-edge" classic as the original was. And to see such a decrease in quality (even taking away Figment) in 1999 leaves me very fishy in where Disney decides to put its money. The Image Works is also a totally different story. If EPCOT isn't even willing to pay the insurance to open up the wonderland of pure Disneyesque activities, I don't see how I can trust them using the money elsewhere in the park.

2. Test Track
Although this is informational on car testing and people love the thrills produced, it does not cater to all guests in the sense that World of Motion did. World of Motion had a ride ala Pirates of the Caribbean with intricate detail, attention to the smallest of characters, some of the most elaborate sets designed by Disney, a theme song, and inspiration as it taught the past, present, and the future of motion. This, Spaceship Earth, and Horizons were pretty much "the big three" when it comes to inspiration brought on through detailed "in there" attractions. The sad case with Test Track is, most people argue it's not really "worth the wait," based on the car ride to Disney. While the feeling may not be exact to the sensation brought on by the ride, the attraction itself serves as a 'discovery,' but not as a inspiration to the future, or even on target with the essence of motion itself. While it is not by definition a BAD attraction, I believe the right thing Disney could have done was update the World of Motion ala Spaceship Earth (1986, 1994), keep the TransCenter (can you believe the Test Track postshow area music is music heard on the radio? ), and therefore have a pavilion that caters more to the family unit, while exploring the essence of motion, and then an example of how today we are trying to improve.

The list may go on, including attractions such as 'Food Rocks,' 'The Enchanted Tiki Room - UNM' (as far as concept issues go), and others. But the quality of attractions has, unfortunately as I see it, been decreasing. We've lost hundreds of Audio-Animatronics from EPCOT Center. They've been replaced by black space, screens, and fast-moving rides. We've lost the elaborate sets.

We've also lost heart. Remember the family in Horizons? The loveable Figment and Dreamfinder? The complexity of good humor with characters meant to be bonded with? This, too, has been fading and generally replaced by more upbeat and significantly shorter attractions.

We've lost the original songs. If you pull out the inspirational 1991 Official Album Disneyland/EPCOT CD, you'd find that every one of the 11 theme songs would have been *lost and not replaced* if it weren't for guest complaint AFTER the attraction was built. This is because One Little Spark was brought back. Luckily, Mission Space HAS decided to put a theme park song in, based on a recent report. But, like the movies, it is a general downturn. If EPCOT continues not to add beautiful themes to the attractions, we may be repeating the same songs, "Tiki Room," "Yo Ho," "Grim Grinning Ghosts," "GBBT," from the sixties over and over and over and over again...

Some of these things may be simple. But, it's the detail that makes Disney what it is, now isn't it? Although the newer attractions on Future World East may draw popularity, so do attractions such as Cranium Command in Wonders of Life. No, it doesn't have three hour waits on hot summer afternoons. But it has a good audience that learns so much in such a short period - while being truly entertained.

The basic trust is currently becoming lost. Our last "full-space quality" attraction with animatronics, sets, drama, history, and future is at risk. It would be such a pain to see it go... along with much of the sereneness of EPCOT. The plan of Gemini, as it has been reported by several sources since it came, was to bring in different kinds, more, guests to EPCOT...and therefore "change the image." And the image I see EPCOT as is the perfect planned community of education, inspiration, sereneness, and quality.

What if Disney built another attraction that actually had Audio-Animatronics? Or giant sets? Or used up the original ride space? Or educated, going through the past and into the future? It's completely possible. But I can't forsee it happening, at least for now.

So you may think I'm against change? That's completely far from the truth. What I'm against is lack of progress. And, in fact, I love change completely when it's done right. For example:

New Tomorrowland in 1995.

1. The New Attractions
Was the Circle Vision theater used as a waiting area? Was it only using half the space as a meet and greet like Timekeeper soon will be? No. In fact, this attraction ADDED animatronics figures, loveable characters, heart, PURE comedy, and especially education and inspiration to an attraction. To see something like the Timekeeper added to EPCOT would be a dream within itself, as simple as it sounds. But these concepts are the core of Disney entertainment.

2. The Thrill Factor
Alien Encounter, using some of the best special effects anywhere in the resort, is one of the most popular attractions in the Magic Kingdom. With *brand new* animatronics, characters who we get accustomed to and love (i.e. Skippy and the leaders of XS), along with comedy, all of the original show space is used to convey a new message with the latest technology.

3. Keeping the Classic Ideals
Walt Disney's Carousel of Progress and Space Mountain, along with the Tomorrowland Transit Authority, were actually kept - and updated - during this transition. To keep such attractions is an honorable thing in its own. But to see Walt's attraction updated with brand new technology, scores, and scripts really adds to the magic.

See, New Tomorrowland is a change that appeals to the ENTIRE family. Things became more entertaining, more detailed, and even more loveable. This area is now one of the most populated places in the Magic Kingdom because it has so much to offer with different tastes - but still uses the original concepts of Disney quality and showmanship to spark the way.

As for the argument concerning the space for Rainforest Roller Coaster, do not forget the space between The Living Seas and The Land. Of course Soarin' would not fit in the Pavilion, there is no room in either of the theater attractions. But next time take a walk around Future World West. You'll notice MASSIVE space area between both the Land and Imagination and the Land and the Living Seas. The room is there. But is the heart?

If Disney could acknowledge these issues, I could have more trust and possibly welcome Gemini more. But, as this hasn't happened, even in letters, I can't simply "sit back and enjoy."

 

[DarkMeasures]

Hmmmm...... That would be really cool if in Time Racers, the car would stop in each period where you watch progress going in high speed with all the animatronics doing their job at super speed.

Oh, and from that arial picture of Epcot. Disney could easily fit in the soarin attraction by just tearing down the Lion King show and putting the large 2 theatres on that side of Epcot.

And if you guys want to get the full track of Imagination used, then why not complain to Disney every time you are at Epcot and tell people about this. It does work.

Pirates was not supposed to be built in Disney World.

 

[RobVanDam]

Re: Re: Re: The Changing Nature of EPCOT. . .

Originally posted by grizzlyhall
Bingo. This statement, describing trust in updates, can be paralleled to EPCOT more specifically:

1. Journey into Imagination
Only half the track is used. The quality was destroyed, replaced by black space and simple sets. Although the current attraction SHOULD BE COMMENDED based on the prior, as it stands, it is not a "Disney cutting-edge" classic as the original was. And to see such a decrease in quality (even taking away Figment) in 1999 leaves me very fishy in where Disney decides to put its money. The Image Works is also a totally different story. If EPCOT isn't even willing to pay the insurance to open up the wonderland of pure Disneyesque activities, I don't see how I can trust them using the money elsewhere in the park.

2. Test Track
Although this is informational on car testing and people love the thrills produced, it does not cater to all guests in the sense that World of Motion did. World of Motion had a ride ala Pirates of the Caribbean with intricate detail, attention to the smallest of characters, some of the most elaborate sets designed by Disney, a theme song, and inspiration as it taught the past, present, and the future of motion. This, Spaceship Earth, and Horizons were pretty much "the big three" when it comes to inspiration brought on through detailed "in there" attractions. The sad case with Test Track is, most people argue it's not really "worth the wait," based on the car ride to Disney. While the feeling may not be exact to the sensation brought on by the ride, the attraction itself serves as a 'discovery,' but not as a inspiration to the future, or even on target with the essence of motion itself. While it is not by definition a BAD attraction, I believe the right thing Disney could have done was update the World of Motion ala Spaceship Earth (1986, 1994), keep the TransCenter (can you believe the Test Track postshow area music is music heard on the radio? ), and therefore have a pavilion that caters more to the family unit, while exploring the essence of motion, and then an example of how today we are trying to improve.

The list may go on, including attractions such as 'Food Rocks,' 'The Enchanted Tiki Room - UNM' (as far as concept issues go), and others. But the quality of attractions has, unfortunately as I see it, been decreasing. We've lost hundreds of Audio-Animatronics from EPCOT Center. They've been replaced by black space, screens, and fast-moving rides. We've lost the elaborate sets.

We've also lost heart. Remember the family in Horizons? The loveable Figment and Dreamfinder? The complexity of good humor with characters meant to be bonded with? This, too, has been fading and generally replaced by more upbeat and significantly shorter attractions.

We've lost the original songs. If you pull out the inspirational 1991 Official Album Disneyland/EPCOT CD, you'd find that every one of the 11 theme songs would have been *lost and not replaced* if it weren't for guest complaint AFTER the attraction was built. This is because One Little Spark was brought back. Luckily, Mission Space HAS decided to put a theme park song in, based on a recent report. But, like the movies, it is a general downturn. If EPCOT continues not to add beautiful themes to the attractions, we may be repeating the same songs, "Tiki Room," "Yo Ho," "Grim Grinning Ghosts," "GBBT," from the sixties over and over and over and over again...

Some of these things may be simple. But, it's the detail that makes Disney what it is, now isn't it? Although the newer attractions on Future World East may draw popularity, so do attractions such as Cranium Command in Wonders of Life. No, it doesn't have three hour waits on hot summer afternoons. But it has a good audience that learns so much in such a short period - while being truly entertained.

The basic trust is currently becoming lost. Our last "full-space quality" attraction with animatronics, sets, drama, history, and future is at risk. It would be such a pain to see it go... along with much of the sereneness of EPCOT. The plan of Gemini, as it has been reported by several sources since it came, was to bring in different kinds, more, guests to EPCOT...and therefore "change the image." And the image I see EPCOT as is the perfect planned community of education, inspiration, sereneness, and quality.

What if Disney built another attraction that actually had Audio-Animatronics? Or giant sets? Or used up the original ride space? Or educated, going through the past and into the future? It's completely possible. But I can't forsee it happening, at least for now.

So you may think I'm against change? That's completely far from the truth. What I'm against is lack of progress. And, in fact, I love change completely when it's done right. For example:

New Tomorrowland in 1995.

1. The New Attractions
Was the Circle Vision theater used as a waiting area? Was it only using half the space as a meet and greet like Timekeeper soon will be? No. In fact, this attraction ADDED animatronics figures, loveable characters, heart, PURE comedy, and especially education and inspiration to an attraction. To see something like the Timekeeper added to EPCOT would be a dream within itself, as simple as it sounds. But these concepts are the core of Disney entertainment.

2. The Thrill Factor
Alien Encounter, using some of the best special effects anywhere in the resort, is one of the most popular attractions in the Magic Kingdom. With *brand new* animatronics, characters who we get accustomed to and love (i.e. Skippy and the leaders of XS), along with comedy, all of the original show space is used to convey a new message with the latest technology.

3. Keeping the Classic Ideals
Walt Disney's Carousel of Progress and Space Mountain, along with the Tomorrowland Transit Authority, were actually kept - and updated - during this transition. To keep such attractions is an honorable thing in its own. But to see Walt's attraction updated with brand new technology, scores, and scripts really adds to the magic.

See, New Tomorrowland is a change that appeals to the ENTIRE family. Things became more entertaining, more detailed, and even more loveable. This area is now one of the most populated places in the Magic Kingdom because it has so much to offer with different tastes - but still uses the original concepts of Disney quality and showmanship to spark the way.

As for the argument concerning the space for Rainforest Roller Coaster, do not forget the space between The Living Seas and The Land. Of course Soarin' would not fit in the Pavilion, there is no room in either of the theater attractions. But next time take a walk around Future World West. You'll notice MASSIVE space area between both the Land and Imagination and the Land and the Living Seas. The room is there. But is the heart?

If Disney could acknowledge these issues, I could have more trust and possibly welcome Gemini more. But, as this hasn't happened, even in letters, I can't simply "sit back and enjoy."

Grizz man ... that was deep.. all the memories are being brought back now .. Well even though i don't really remember the rides all that much , meaning W.o.M, horizons, and JII,... i feel your pain..