Were the lines really shorter back in the day or do we imagine this?

[cdd89]

As an alternative system, I would eliminate the current FP+ system entirely and do the following:

1 - Determine the acceptable wait time for a ride. The orthodoxy here is about 30 minutes, so let’s use that.

2 - As soon as the wait time for a ride exceeds 30 minutes, the standby line should be closed and you would have to scan your ticket for entry.

3 - Upon scanning your ticket, you would gain immediate entry to the 30-minute line. You would also be given a time, based on the number of other people who had scanned into that ride and the projected equivalent wait time based on the ride’s operational capacity, as to when you could scan in to your next 30-minute line attraction.

4 - In the meantime, you could enter any attraction with a queue line below 30 minutes.

 

[Lensman]

I'll take your advice under consideration. It is difficult to know exactly whom will not realize that this is a discussion board with many people participating. Besides using the word one, constantly sounds way to British for my liking. But, I guess one can learn, can't one. How'd I do?

Lol! Great job!!

As for the satisfaction rate, I have no objection to that thought. But, it should apply to everyone, not just those that got lucky and were able to obtain a FP. For the number that are feeling real satisfied there is at least an equal number that are completely dissatisfied. I know Disney is successful, but, one has to wonder how long they can maintain that business only making around half the guests happy. We were satisfied back when there was no FP at all, because we all kept moving and we were all getting the same satisfaction for our dollar. That isn't happening anymore and like I said, I don't want to give others that "rush" at my expense. That doesn't satisfy me. And even those that get that limited "rush" will be quickly forfeiting it back when they are in the forced slower line on the attractions that they couldn't get a FP to cover. At the end of the day, instead of having everyone satisfied continuously, people are having to deal with the ups and downs between satisfied and frustrated. In my mind, anytime frustration and anger enters the scene it creates a blockage to a warm fuzzy feeling.

I'm not entirely convinced by this "rush" theory myself.

I was thinking that there must be something they could do to keep the standby line moving forward. I don't understand entirely why it stops. To me, you'd always keep it moving at some pace, if only through some complicated scheme involving "smart switchback queueing" where a stoppage would automatically open up a new short switchback that would keep the line moving forward slowly. Or if the cause of stoppages is people showing up for Fastpass at the same time, then impose a fixed blend ratio at the merge to reduce bunching.

Yeah, I don't think *anyone* is entirely happy with the current system. OTOH, I don't know that there are any solutions that meet all the "optimization criteria" (particularly getting people out of lines entirely) that don't make the system insanely complicated. Here are some insanely crazy ideas I have, just to show everyone that I genuinely want things to improve (and who *wouldn't*? I think everyone does, it's just that not everyone says it!):
1. Reduce the number of Fastpasses given out.
2. Implement Fastpass trading where you can trade your Fastpass for others that Disney chooses based on how bad the standby line is. My idea here is when the standby line goes above 90 minutes, you are offered the opportunity to trade your Fastpass for two Fastpasses later. I think this requires some work but you get the idea.
3. Implement a full-blown online Fastpass marketplace where you can trade your Fastpass either for other Fastpasses or even for dining reservations or something. I wonder if Disney could ever figure out a way of straight out buying the Fastpasses back for cash? Or maybe 50% off dining? This might lead to the dark side of them actually selling Fastpasses for cash, though.
4. Hard-ticket a few select attractions - FoP for example, and when they open, the two SW:GE rides. And it doesn't even have to be that much - for example I was thinking that NRJ might have to be hard-ticketed due to the standby times but maybe it would be sufficient to hard-ticket it at $1? That would dissuade the jaded.

 

[Shouldigo12]

As an alternative system, I would eliminate the current FP+ system entirely and do the following:

1 - Determine the acceptable wait time for a ride. The orthodoxy here is about 30 minutes, so let’s use that.

2 - As soon as the wait time for a ride exceeds 30 minutes, the standby line should be closed and you would have to scan your ticket for entry.

3 - Upon scanning your ticket, you would gain immediate entry to the 30-minute line. You would also be given a time, based on the number of other people who had scanned into that ride and the projected equivalent wait time based on the ride’s operational capacity, as to when you could scan in to your next 30-minute line attraction.

4 - In the meantime, you could enter any attraction with a queue line below 30 minutes.

I'm a little confused on how this works. So when a line exceeds thirty minutes you stop letting people into that line, open up a new line, and then have people enter that one instead where they can get on the ride immediately?

 

[Shouldigo12]

Lol! Great job!!


I'm not entirely convinced by this "rush" theory myself.

I was thinking that there must be something they could do to keep the standby line moving forward. I don't understand entirely why it stops. To me, you'd always keep it moving at some pace, if only through some complicated scheme involving "smart switchback queueing" where a stoppage would automatically open up a new short switchback that would keep the line moving forward slowly. Or if the cause of stoppages is people showing up for Fastpass at the same time, then impose a fixed blend ratio at the merge to reduce bunching.

Yeah, I don't think *anyone* is entirely happy with the current system. OTOH, I don't know that there are any solutions that meet all the "optimization criteria" (particularly getting people out of lines entirely) that don't make the system insanely complicated. Here are some insanely crazy ideas I have, just to show everyone that I genuinely want things to improve (and who *wouldn't*? I think everyone does, it's just that not everyone says it!):
1. Reduce the number of Fastpasses given out.
2. Implement Fastpass trading where you can trade your Fastpass for others that Disney chooses based on how bad the standby line is. My idea here is when the standby line goes above 90 minutes, you are offered the opportunity to trade your Fastpass for two Fastpasses later. I think this requires some work but you get the idea.
3. Implement a full-blown online Fastpass marketplace where you can trade your Fastpass either for other Fastpasses or even for dining reservations or something. I wonder if Disney could ever figure out a way of straight out buying the Fastpasses back for cash? Or maybe 50% off dining? This might lead to the dark side of them actually selling Fastpasses for cash, though.
4. Hard-ticket a few select attractions - FoP for example, and when they open, the two SW:GE rides. And it doesn't even have to be that much - for example I was thinking that NRJ might have to be hard-ticketed due to the standby times but maybe it would be sufficient to hard-ticket it at $1? That would dissuade the jaded.

I think number 2 is a pretty solid idea.

 

[cdd89]

I'm a little confused on how this works. So when a line exceeds thirty minutes you stop letting people into that line, open up a new line, and then have people enter that one instead where they can get on the ride immediately?

My (crazy) idea is that when a line exceeds 30 mins, new people can only join the (30-minute) line by scanning in with their park media. They are then unable to join the next 30-minute line until an appropriate amount of time (I.e. what the queue would have been had all the people who scanned in lined up) has passed.

A sort of system of fastpass debt, if you like.

 

[Lensman]

My (crazy) idea is that when a line exceeds 30 mins, new people can only join the (30-minute) line by scanning in with their park media. They are then unable to join the next 30-minute line until an appropriate amount of time (I.e. what the queue would have been had all the people who scanned in lined up) has passed.

A sort of system of fastpass debt, if you like.

What happens as people keep scanning into the 30 minute line and it gets super-long? Example: It's FoP and the park gates open, within 10 minutes the wait time gets to 30 minutes. Everyone has fresh media so they continue to scan in. After 20 minutes, the "30 minute" line is now 60 minutes long. More people with fresh media continue to stream in. After 40 minutes, the "30 minute" line is now 120 minutes long.

This doesn't make sense so I guess I still don't understand your proposal fully. I arrive after 41 minutes. 120 minutes worth of people have scanned in. Are they all waiting in front of me of did they go off to do other things? If so, when are they allowed back? What am I supposed to do after I scan in?

I have a sneaking suspicion that your system might be how you might describe the original Fastpass system - the one that gave out tickets for you to come back later at a designated time window.

 

[Maeryk]

One of the reasons why I so often curse the day that FP was invented. Yes we had long lines, but, psychologically it was a much more relaxing experience then the current fiasco. We kept moving, we continuously weaved back and forth in the switchback lines, meeting face with other people in the same line, but, always moving and, as I have said so often, when we got to the front we were next. It got to be a game after awhile. We joked back and forth with the others in the line. Shared misery made it much more palatable. You didn't have to have something to keep the kids amused because you just kept moving. No large crowd of people "cutting" ahead just when you were about to ride. It was less frustrating, but, you knew everyone was having to deal with the same thing. If you saw that the line was too long you just went to another and came back later. Now you are trapped. You know the line isn't ever going to get reasonable so you are stuck there standing still most of the time watching the gloating group pass by you.

It is true that the overall census was smaller but, there weren't four parks to spread them out in at the time. I don't notice that the crowds are any bigger now then they were back then. But, the system is awful and has been around too long to be thrown out now. In my mind, it started the anger mode in the parks that never existed previous to that. It was just better and the reason why we went back year after year. I have to wonder if the return visit situation has dropped after a couple of experiences of standing still are realized as being normal. The introduction of FP started my decline in going as often as I once did. It sucked the fun out of it. Crowds along with FP have resulted in long, long lines. If you need proof that even Disney realizes the folly of FP, lately some new attractions now are opened without any FP at all. A line that keeps moving generates very few displays of anger. A stagnant line creates all kinds of problems. We are all still human.

In short, the lines may have seemed longer, but, the time in the line was much less. It was fair because you could easily gauge how long the wait would be, you could plan your stay quickly and just plain enjoyed the time much more. If they created FP to get people to spend more time spending money in the shops they were wrong. Everyone in the standby line now has far less time to shop then the overall crowd had without it.

If FP continues it is necessary the it be a sold pass and one that charges a significant amount to keep the masses away from it. That would speed up the standby line considerably and ease the frustration knowing that those that are still using it have paid an arm and a leg for the privilege. Of course, the best thing would just to end it completely. First come, first served still works the best.

Just the sheer size increase of the parking lot for MK over the years, should be an indicator of the increase in overall attendance. Yes, I get that the FP means the lines stop now and then, but there's also just a much larger volume of people utilizing the rides. If there were no FP, the lines would be just as long.. well, standby would be longer, actually, as the ride throughput remains constant.

They created FP so that people would have a shot at riding what they wanted a few times a day without standing in long lines at every ride, and everyone got an equal shot at that, and the opportunity to pick which ride they wanted to do it with. I think it had more to do with not having to build extended queues as the lines got gradually longer due to increased park volume, as much as getting people to buy tchochkes.

 

[cdd89]

What happens as people keep scanning into the 30 minute line and it gets super-long? Example: It's FoP and the park gates open, within 10 minutes the wait time gets to 30 minutes. Everyone has fresh media so they continue to scan in. After 20 minutes, the "30 minute" line is now 60 minutes long. More people with fresh media continue to stream in. After 40 minutes, the "30 minute" line is now 120 minutes long.

This doesn't make sense so I guess I still don't understand your proposal fully. I arrive after 41 minutes. 120 minutes worth of people have scanned in. Are they all waiting in front of me of did they go off to do other things? If so, when are they allowed back? What am I supposed to do after I scan in?

I have a sneaking suspicion that your system might be how you might describe the original Fastpass system - the one that gave out tickets for you to come back later at a designated time window.

You have it pretty much spot on, actually - and they’d all be waiting in front of you physically. So in certain circumstances, the physical line would be greater than 30m if people with fresh park media kept entering and scanning in. This would only happen in the extreme cases though - new attractions for example - and for most attractions, the rate of new arrivals with fresh media who want to experience that attraction would be well below the capacity for that attraction and I think the “fastpass debt” idea might just work.

I’m not 100% convinced myself, btw - the classic FP system of “wait before you ride” is more intuitive, logical and less prone to failure - but I thought it was an interesting thought experiment and it has the advantage that it eliminates the issue of no-shows as guests “show up” in advance.

 

[Goofyernmost]

Just the sheer size increase of the parking lot for MK over the years, should be an indicator of the increase in overall attendance. Yes, I get that the FP means the lines stop now and then, but there's also just a much larger volume of people utilizing the rides. If there were no FP, the lines would be just as long.. well, standby would be longer, actually, as the ride throughput remains constant.

They created FP so that people would have a shot at riding what they wanted a few times a day without standing in long lines at every ride, and everyone got an equal shot at that, and the opportunity to pick which ride they wanted to do it with. I think it had more to do with not having to build extended queues as the lines got gradually longer due to increased park volume, as much as getting people to buy tchochkes.

To the best of my memory, MK's parking lots are not any bigger now then they were in the early 80's. And they were always full. I don't remember the dateline on it, but, the race track was put in there later. It was recently removed and returned to being part of the parking lot. Remember in the early days there were hardly any rooms onsite. Almost everyone had to stay in hotels surrounding WDW. Everyone had cars and had to park them. I can remember looking at the mass of automobiles and making the comment that I'd just like to have one days receipts for the parking lot alone. And at that time it was only about $1.00 to park.

No one really knows, except the board of directors, why they came up with FP, it might have been to entice people to spend more money, but, it never worked out that way. Again the timeline is fuzzy, but, I don't think they had more then the first three parks before FP came into existence. People were always commenting on spending their life time in line and perhaps it might have helped satisfy some of the folks that were always in a hurry, but, right out of the gate, it instantly cause anger and upset in the standby lines. Compared to today the lines were no where near as long, generally, and they were no where near as frustrating as Stand By is now. It's they 900 pound Gorilla in the living room that no one wants be the one to ask to leave. I was shocked when I went the first time after FP, and saw the anger in the standby lines. That was never there before that. There was good natured griping about the lines, but, never anger. It was, I think a promotional thing that they didn't think all the way through.

 

[jkl2000]

I remember waiting a LONG time for 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea, mid-70s.

 

[kong1802]

As other's have pointed out, I too remember long lines. But they moved.

I would rather wait 60 mins in a constantly moving line than 45 minutes standing still. Sounds crazy, but it's true. I'm sure there's a psychological explanation in there.

These longer waits back in the day were really just on the Mountains, if I recall correctly. So even if you were waiting 90 mins for Space, you were waiting 15-20 for things like Speedway. Speedway to me is the greatest example of FP+'s failures. I don't recall ever seeing that ride at 50-60 mins. I could be mistaken.

ETA: For anyone wondering how FP+ has pushed up wait times, see this oldy but a goody post from Josh at opposite of hard wdw.com

You'll have to google since I can't post the link: How FastPass+ is Affecting Wait Times at Disney World ... - "opposite of hard"WDW

 

[LUVofDIS]

I remember waiting in long lines in 94. This was at the end of August, which was thought to be the start of the slow season at the time. I can't say it was any longer than today. But the problem with todays system is the planning involved, now we planned back than, but nothing like today. The only two things we needed to secure months in advanced was our resort and the Hoop-Dee-Doo. And even those you didn't need to do even six months in advance. As others have said in the past, who knows where you will want to be or eat six months from now.

 

[larryz]

My (crazy) idea is that when a line exceeds 30 mins, new people can only join the (30-minute) line by scanning in with their park media. They are then unable to join the next 30-minute line until an appropriate amount of time (I.e. what the queue would have been had all the people who scanned in lined up) has passed.

A sort of system of fastpass debt, if you like.

Oh. I get it. MORE ride rationing...

Bottom line -- people seem to mind the lines less when they know that everybody is waiting the same time they are and the line is constantly moving.

 

[kong1802]

You have it pretty much spot on, actually - and they’d all be waiting in front of you physically. So in certain circumstances, the physical line would be greater than 30m if people with fresh park media kept entering and scanning in. This would only happen in the extreme cases though - new attractions for example - and for most attractions, the rate of new arrivals with fresh media who want to experience that attraction would be well below the capacity for that attraction and I think the “fastpass debt” idea might just work.

I’m not 100% convinced myself, btw - the classic FP system of “wait before you ride” is more intuitive, logical and less prone to failure - but I thought it was an interesting thought experiment and it has the advantage that it eliminates the issue of no-shows as guests “show up” in advance.

FP- was a better system in terms of line management.

IMO, the move to FP+ was to cater more to the "more profitable" customer base.

 

[MickeyLuv'r]

I'm not picking on you, nor is my intent to patronize, and finally, I'm going against my instincts which are to try not to give unsolicited advice, but I know you're open to new ideas so I thought I'd give it a shot...

I stopped using the "used to refer to any person in general" usage of the word "you" a while back because it was too-often confused with the "used to refer to the person or people that the speaker is addressing" usage. Besides, then my then-girlfriend HR specialist advised me to avoid the use of the word "you" in reviews because apparently when one addresses people with "you" when saying something potentially negative it immediately sets up an antagonism in the person. Apparently it's one of those hippocampus-triggering words.

The thing is, if you actually go back to what Goofyernmost actually said, he first said, " I don't mind you or others getting a rush..." (post #44).

Next, in post #62, he quoted my post, but claimed, "There also is such a thing as a general usage "you"*. Fun Fact: you doesn't always mean you personally." He followed up, in post #72, "You in the general sense is very common usage in the English language. I can't help it if you, meaning you personally, are not familiar with that usage. You, and in this case it is, you personally, are taking this way beyond necessity. It's a nitpicking incorrect statement to say that it isn't precise language."

I love the spirit of your post, Lensman, but the intent of post #44 was actually quite clear. It was only later that he tried to say that he actually said something completely different.

Luckily, I wasn't insulted. It is actually pretty funny.

 

[thomas998]

I honestly think the lines used to be longer before Fast Pass. I waited hours for Space Mountain...now I never wait.

That's not because lines in general have gotten shorter, it has more to do with people getting tired of Space Mountain. Once upon a time space mountain was the only real excitement ride at MK, but then when other exciting rides came along it spread out the supply of excitement... then look at the way Space Mountain has been ignored when it comes to updates and how could you expect it to have the same lines as it used to have. If we see a line longer than 15 minutes for it we just skip it because we don't think it is worth any more of our time than 15 minutes and often times we can just walk on it with no line in the mornings.

 

[thomas998]

FP- was a better system in terms of line management.

IMO, the move to FP+ was to cater more to the "more profitable" customer base.

I don't think its to cater to the more profitable customer as much as it is just a gimmick to get more people to stay onsite. You want to get the best fastpass tickets then book one of our hotels... but when we actually start looking at the number of rides we get in a given day today versus what we got 15 or 20 years ago, we get fewer rides today. I don't think it is because we walk slower from one ride to the next as much as it is a longer standby line in general. Sure we get 3 fastpasses that get us on real quick to 3 rides... but then when you have to wait longer in the standby lines than you did 20 years ago the total number of rides you get goes down.

 

[kong1802]

I don't think its to cater to the more profitable customer as much as it is just a gimmick to get more people to stay onsite. You want to get the best fastpass tickets then book one of our hotels... but when we actually start looking at the number of rides we get in a given day today versus what we got 15 or 20 years ago, we get fewer rides today. I don't think it is because we walk slower from one ride to the next as much as it is a longer standby line in general. Sure we get 3 fastpasses that get us on real quick to 3 rides... but then when you have to wait longer in the standby lines than you did 20 years ago the total number of rides you get goes down.

The only reason I say it is to cater to the more profitable, is anecdotal complaints I started hearing and seeing. One example: A few years back, before FP+, our CFO took his family to the World for a week. They stayed at the GF. When he returned, being the WDW enthusiast that I am, I asked how it went. He said they hated it. His words, "Spent $10k and didn't really get to ride anything great, as the only way was to get there early, and we weren't doing that." I could be wrong or misinterpreting posts, but it seems to me the people who like FP+ are the ones who come in later, and aren't going commando or RDing. I would venture to guess that this type of WDW traveler is more affluent than your commando crowd. That's a complete guess on my part, obviously. It affords that crowd a way to get the most popular attractions without having to get there at RD everyday. It frees them up to eat at the character buffets. Again, this is all just a guess on my part, but to me it makes sense.

And they did start offering another bone to this crowd in terms of the club level FP+. Which, in my mind, offers up further proof of my theory.

 

[MickeyLuv'r]

Sure we get 3 fastpasses that get us on real quick to 3 rides... but then when you have to wait longer in the standby lines than you did 20 years ago the total number of rides you get goes down.

This isn't quite a complete picture though.

WDW's customers are no longer limited to 3 fastpasses. After a person uses their 3rd fastpass, they are able to pick more fastpasses one at a time. As soon as any person uses their 4th fastpass, they are eligible to get a 5th, and so forth.

A person who just wanted to rack up a high number of Fastpasses could likely get one right after another until park closing if they wanted to ride Dumbo and the teacups many times.

Even if you don't opt to get a 4th FP, how long you wait to ride each attraction is very much a function of which attractions you choose. Guests rarely have to wait more than 15 minutes for the carousel, teacups, Philarmagic, Peoplemover, Carousel of Progress, Shooting Arcade.

It also matters, how long a person stays in the park. If a person only planned- then and now - to ride a total of say 6 attractions, where 3 were e-ride Mountains, 3 were low wait rides, their wait today would likely be the same or lower, even if the park was substantially more crowded.

Are we walking about a person who arrives at rope drop or a person who arrives at 11am? Are we walking about an 77 degree day, a 95 degree day, or 45 degree day? Windy? Wet or Dry? What month? Is it a holiday week? Do we have a stroller? Do we care what time, or where we eat lunch? What kind of discount did WDW offer that week?

There's just a ton of variables to consider.

 

[EricsBiscuit]

My confusion with the claim that FP increases wait times is that the attractions are still handling the same amount of people. The wait times would be the same if there wasn't FP, just with more people in the standby queue. I might be wrong