Were the lines really shorter back in the day or do we imagine this?

[Goofyernmost]

My confusion with the claim that FP increases wait times is that the attractions are still handling the same amount of people. The wait times would be the same if there wasn't FP, just with more people in the standby queue. I might be wrong

You are looking at is as a group, but, we don't travel with everyone else we are individuals and it is the individuals that are affected. The FP line is moving much faster. It has too, it didn't exist before they introduced FP. The regular line, the one that we used for years, comes to an almost dead stop. It didn't do that when you only had the one line.

Let's say that back in the day, one could enter a 1 hr. regular line and it would be one hour. Since FP now you can get in that line and all of a sudden people that might not have even been in the park when you entered the standby line, are going in front of you. Since you at that point might be half way up the line, you're stopped and waiting. They are adding to your time in the line. One that would not have happened before because those that currently are passing by you would under the old system be at that end of that 1 hour line. You would have gotten on the ride in an hour and they would have gotten on in an hour from the time they entered the line. Now those that showed up after you only spent 15 minutes in line, and complained about it being too long. And you, as payback for your effort to get there early and stand in line, are extended in your time which may now be up to 1.5 hours, hardly moving, because you had to wait while the others jumped ahead.

It just isn't a fun experience for many, many people. Yes, the same number of people ride per hour, but, the sequence is altered and for no good or fair reason. I paid admission, and they paid the same admission yet, I'm standing still watching them go by me and I don't know why they deserve that special treatment. Before there was no special treatment, first come, first served. If one wanted to be in the front of the line one got ones lazy butt out of bed and get to the line early. If one didn't get up early, well they did not get the front of the line, but, once they entered that line they knew exactly how long it would be until they were happily riding along.

In many ways it is just smoke and mirrors. Psychologically, they have convinced everyone that they are gaining something with that FP, but, all the time saved on one ride is lost when they have to go to standby on another because they couldn't get a FP. They spent the same time in line overall as any of us did before FP. We are now forced to stick to a strict system and detailed planning to have ADR's, or other rides that might interfere with our next FP. It is a total sham that is swallowed hook, line and sinker by the gullible public.

 

[hopemax]

My confusion with the claim that FP increases wait times is that the attractions are still handling the same amount of people. The wait times would be the same if there wasn't FP, just with more people in the standby queue. I might be wrong

Without FP, an hour long line, depending on individual ride capacity can, be say 2000 people.

With FP, something like up to 80% of the seats are assigned via FP. So there are only 400 seats for the standby line per hour.

It's easier to find 600 people willing to wait 90 min than it is to find 2000 people willing to wait 60.

You take FP away, the people in the standby will probably stay in the standby: they are already "willing to wait." But the people holding FP will be split. Some will get in line, and some will say the line is too long and redistribute themselves somewhere else in the park.

 

[LittleBuford]

The FP line is moving much faster. It has too, it didn't exist before they introduced FP. The regular line, the one that we used for years, comes to an almost dead stop. It didn't do that when you only had the one line.

Let's say that back in the day, one could enter a 1 hr. regular line and it would be one hour. Since FP now you can get in that line and all of a sudden people that might not have even been in the park when you entered the standby line, are going in front of you. Since you at that point might be half way up the line, you're stopped and waiting. They are adding to your time in the line. One that would not have happened before because those that currently are passing by you would under the old system be at that end of that 1 hour line. You would have gotten on the ride in an hour and they would have gotten on in an hour from the time they entered the line. Now those that showed up after you only spent 5 minutes in line, and complained about it being too long. And you, as payback for your effort to get there early and stand in line, are extended in your time which may now be up to 1.5 hours, hardly moving, because you had to wait while the others jumped ahead.

It just isn't a fun experience for many, many people. Yes, the same number of people ride per hour, but, the sequence is altered and for no good or fair reason. I paid admission, and they paid the same admission yet, I'm standing still watching them go by me and I don't know why they deserve that special treatment. Before there was no special treatment, first come, first served. If you wanted to be in the front of the line you got your lazy butt out of bed and got to the line early. If you didn't get up early, well you did not get the front of the line, but, once you entered that line you knew exactly how long it would be until you were happily riding along.

But no-one is jumping ahead or receiving special treatment. Those using FP are availing themselves of a legitimate, highly publicised service that is freely available to all.

 

[thomas998]

This isn't quite a complete picture though.

WDW's customers are no longer limited to 3 fastpasses. After a person uses their 3rd fastpass, they are able to pick more fastpasses one at a time. As soon as any person uses their 4th fastpass, they are eligible to get a 5th, and so forth.

A person who just wanted to rack up a high number of Fastpasses could likely get one right after another until park closing if they wanted to ride Dumbo and the teacups many times.

Even if you don't opt to get a 4th FP, how long you wait to ride each attraction is very much a function of which attractions you choose. Guests rarely have to wait more than 15 minutes for the carousel, teacups, Philarmagic, Peoplemover, Carousel of Progress, Shooting Arcade.

It also matters, how long a person stays in the park. If a person only planned- then and now - to ride a total of say 6 attractions, where 3 were e-ride Mountains, 3 were low wait rides, their wait today would likely be the same or lower, even if the park was substantially more crowded.

Are we walking about a person who arrives at rope drop or a person who arrives at 11am? Are we walking about an 77 degree day, a 95 degree day, or 45 degree day? Windy? Wet or Dry? What month? Is it a holiday week? Do we have a stroller? Do we care what time, or where we eat lunch? What kind of discount did WDW offer that week?

There's just a ton of variables to consider.

Okay... to begin with yes you can in theory get a lot of fastpasses, but that assume you manage to get your first 3 fastpasses early in the day... that doesn't always happen, in fact it is possible if you were not staying onsite that by the time you get to select fastpasses that you could get stuck with fastpasses in the afternoon and evening eliminating the ability to keep churning through them.... can you get more than 3? Sure, though the most we've ever gotten when the park has been 5 in one day, once you get into the afternoon during a busy day you'll be looking at fastpasses to ride you didn't need them for to begin with.

You can bring in every variable you want... at the end of the day it really comes down to the total number of visitors and the total number of rides. Considering they haven't been building new ride at nearly the rate the number of visitors has increased coupled with the lower number of hours they are open lately and it is highly unlikely anyone is getting more ride today than they would have 15 years ago.

This increase in visitors is also going to be the reason you as a visitor will spend more time in line... it really is simple logic. But if you want to try and argue that you get more rides today and spend less time in line then go ahead and throw out all sorts of assumptions... maybe if you pick a day right after a major hurricane hits the area you can get much shorter lines... but most people don't plane for those events.

 

[thomas998]

Without FP, an hour long line, depending on individual ride capacity can, be say 2000 people.

With FP, something like up to 80% of the seats are assigned via FP. So there are only 400 seats for the standby line per hour.

It's easier to find 600 people willing to wait 90 min than it is to find 2000 people willing to wait 60.

You take FP away, the people in the standby will probably stay in the standby: they are already "willing to wait." But the people holding FP will be split. Some will get in line, and some will say the line is too long and redistribute themselves somewhere else in the park.

I'm not following your logic.

Assume you open the ride in the morning that has the 2000/hour rate... That doesn't mean that the first 2000 people in line wait an hour. It means that if the line is 2000 people long with no fastpass that any new visitor walking up to the line would stand for 1 hour. It also means that when the line was only 1000 people long that the person walking up would only be there for 30 minutes...The total number of people willing to wait in line 1 hour or 90 minutes doesn't change based on the length of the lines because the people see the sign saying 60 minutes or 90 minutes or whatever it may be.

So I'm not sure why you need to find 2000 people willing to wait 60 minutes vs 600 willing to wait 90... The fact that you have 90 minute waits for any given ride means you have by definition gotten people willing to wait 90 minutes regardless of the number of people in front of them.

I'm also unsure why FP people will be split? They aren't in the standby line, they are in the FP line.

 

[thomas998]

But no-one is jumping ahead or receiving special treatment. Those using FP are availing themselves of a legitimate, highly publicised service that is freely available to all.

No one is saying that a FP person is jumping lines, they are saying that the length of time you spend in a standby line for a ride has increased because of the FPs.

 

[Goofyernmost]

But no-one is jumping ahead or receiving special treatment. Those using FP are availing themselves of a legitimate, highly publicised service that is freely available to all.

How is it available to all? Does that mean that everyone that is in the park at any given time can have a FP to every attraction in the park? Do they not limit the number of FP's? Are you able to go online to set up your FP's and get whatever one you want for every ride in the parks? The answer is no you cannot. They are not available to everybody and they never were. You might have had an opportunity to have one as long as you were able to cross all the t's and dot all the i's, but, it never ever was going to be available to everyone that entered the parks. You had to be a certain place at a certain time, run all over the damn park to pick them up all the while missing out on opportunities to actually experience all the rides and that was the old one. Now you are able to get three 60 days out. And it isn't necessarily going to be available no matter when you get online or the phone. Then after you use the three you can get another one, but, it's not always going to be one that you want or should even need. A whole bunch of stars have to line up in a perfect sequence for anyone to ever get a FP worth having. In short if there are 1000 people that want a FP to, lets say, Test Track and they only have 600 available for that day, 400 people are going to be standing in line extra time and they have no control over it.

 

[larryz]

My confusion with the claim that FP increases wait times is that the attractions are still handling the same amount of people. The wait times would be the same if there wasn't FP, just with more people in the standby queue. I might be wrong

The people standing in the stand-by line likely wouldn't have to wait as long if there weren't people cutting in front of them courtesy the FP line. True, those people would be in the regular line like them, but how many just wouldn't get in the line if they had to wait 40 minutes versus 10?

 

[larryz]

No one is saying that a FP person is jumping lines, they are saying that the length of time you spend in a standby line for a ride has increased because of the FPs.

I am. Not only are they jumping in front of stand-by riders, but they declared their intent to do so 30 or 60 days prior to them even entering the gate.

 

[Goofyernmost]

I'm not following your logic.

Assume you open the ride in the morning that has the 2000/hour rate... That doesn't mean that the first 2000 people in line wait an hour. It means that if the line is 2000 people long with no fastpass that any new visitor walking up to the line would stand for 1 hour. It also means that when the line was only 1000 people long that the person walking up would only be there for 30 minutes...The total number of people willing to wait in line 1 hour or 90 minutes doesn't change based on the length of the lines because the people see the sign saying 60 minutes or 90 minutes or whatever it may be.

So I'm not sure why you need to find 2000 people willing to wait 60 minutes vs 600 willing to wait 90... The fact that you have 90 minute waits for any given ride means you have by definition gotten people willing to wait 90 minutes regardless of the number of people in front of them.

I'm also unsure why FP people will be split? They aren't in the standby line, they are in the FP line.

Willing to wait or have not choice except to wait if they want to see the attraction. There is a difference.

 

[Maeryk]

How is it available to all? Does that mean that everyone that is in the park at any given time can have a FP to every attraction in the park? Do they not limit the number of FP's? Are you able to go online to set up your FP's and get whatever one you want for every ride in the parks? The answer is no you cannot. They are not available to everybody and they never were. You might have had an opportunity to have one as long as you were able to cross all the t's and dot all the i's, but, it never ever was going to be available to everyone that entered the parks. You had to be a certain place at a certain time, run all over the damn park to pick them up all the while missing out on opportunities to actually experience all the rides and that was the old one. Now you are able to get three 60 days out. And it isn't necessarily going to be available no matter when you get online or the phone. Then after you use the three you can get another one, but, it's not always going to be one that you want or should even need. A whole bunch of stars have to line up in a perfect sequence for anyone to ever get a FP worth having. In short if there are 1000 people that want a FP to, lets say, Test Track and they only have 600 available for that day, 400 people are going to be standing in line extra time and they have no control over it.

We have yet to not get the FPs we want when we pick them. I mean, we accept we aren't going to get every E ticket every day, because rationing fps makes sense.

 

[Goofyernmost]

No one is saying that a FP person is jumping lines, they are saying that the length of time you spend in a standby line for a ride has increased because of the FPs.

We actually are saying it. But, more as a figure of speech then the forced definition of it. So, to those that are in the FP line they are doing a sanctioned, management approved line cut. They are doing what they are allowed to do, but, it doesn't change the fact that they actually, physically cutting in line in front of you. We learned in elementary school that it was socially unacceptable to do that, now we have a major player in the entertainment field acting like it is the most natural thing on earth. It isn't... it goes against the grain of anyone that was ever taught to be courteous to their fellow humans and always treat them fairly. Yes, they can do it and Disney (and others) will tell you how good a thing it is, but, in the end it is just childlike line cutting that holds no fairness or anything even slightly righteous about it. But, I suppose it is the world we currently live in.

 

[LittleBuford]

How is it available to all? Does that mean that everyone that is in the park at any given time can have a FP to every attraction in the park? Do they not limit the number of FP's? Are you able to go online to set up your FP's and get whatever one you want for every ride in the parks? The answer is no you cannot. They are not available to everybody and they never were. You might have had an opportunity to have one as long as you were able to cross all the t's and dot all the i's, but, it never ever was going to be available to everyone that entered the parks. You had to be a certain place at a certain time, run all over the damn park to pick them up all the while missing out on opportunities to actually experience all the rides and that was the old one. Now you are able to get three 60 days out. And it isn't necessarily going to be available no matter when you get online or the phone. Then after you use the three you can get another one, but, it's not always going to be one that you want or should even need. A whole bunch of stars have to line up in a perfect sequence for anyone to ever get a FP worth having. In short if there are 1000 people that want a FP to, lets say, Test Track and they only have 600 available for that day, 400 people are going to be standing in line extra time and they have no control over it.

Getting good FPs is nowhere near as difficult as you're making out. If you're persistent and keep checking, you will eventually hit the jackpot and secure something you really want. Last year, I booked a last-minute trip for spring break. My initial daily selections (made about two weeks before the trip) weren't great, because most of the really desirable spots had already been taken, but I was able to replace and improve my choices by periodically checking for new availability. I even managed to get a same-day FP for Frozen Ever After after going through my three prebooked selections. Perhaps people don't realise that the offerings change from second to second; it really does pay to check frequently. As I said in an earlier post, I do feel sorry for those who aren't tech-savvy, because they are indeed disadvantaged by the new system. But for anyone with the means and willingness to use it effectively, FP is a real boon.

 

[MickeyLuv'r]

You know what, never mind.

This isn't a rational discussion.

Have a nice day!

 

[LittleBuford]

No one is saying that a FP person is jumping lines, they are saying that the length of time you spend in a standby line for a ride has increased because of the FPs.

I was paraphrasing the following:

"And you, as payback for your effort to get there early and stand in line, are extended in your time which may now be up to 1.5 hours, hardly moving, because you had to wait while the others jumped ahead."

 

[Maeryk]

There are actually two different discussions going on.

1) Are the lines longer? Since the throughput on the rides is (when running properly) the same then the only way the lines would be "longer" is if there are more people in the park. So in that case: Yes. Park attendance is higher now than it was "back in the day". That's just fact. There are more hotels, there are more resorts around the property, there are simply more guests on site. Which means yes, lines are longer.

2) is where much of the discussion is centered: Do the lines keep moving like they once did? This has a yes and no answer.. if you consider the FP and standby queues as separate entities, then no, they do not. If you consider them both part of the same "line" then yes, they do. Because SOMEONE is always moving forward onto the ride.

Where the heads are knocking is whether FP is "Fair" or whether what our teacher told us in Kindergarten should be the standard with which we judge the world (YMMV on that one).

To me, FP means everyone gets a shot at the rides they most want to ride, and can standby all the others. I don't find it particularly unfair, as it's available to everyone, without knowing any secret tricks or having to pay extra. But it was never meant to mean you get to ride everything, and has to be tiered accordingly, and rationed.

I like the FP system better. it means I have a shot at riding a hot new ride without spending half my day in a line for it, but likely only once per trip. Of course, that means I'm going to stand in several other lines rather than use FP for them, so IMO it evens out.

Much of the complaint seems to be that people now stop moving in line now and then (or for a month if it's Peter Pan) and that's where the issue lies, even if they are starting farther forwards in the queue than they would have been, were all the FP people in the regular queue.

So to me, it's perception based.

If you have a queue of 2000 people who can ride X ride in an hour, it's going to take you the same time, as person 2000 to get from the back of the line to boarding the ride, whether or not there is a FP line. The difference is, if 1000 of them are FP, you will be starting half as far from the ride. But the elapsed time is going to be the same.

(of course, this is based in the assumption that Disney is metering fast pass availablity in order to keep the standby line running at somewhat of an equivalent wait time as it would without fastpass.. just lessening the need for a 2000 person queue because half those people will be walkups at their allotted time).

 

[thomas998]

The only reason I say it is to cater to the more profitable, is anecdotal complaints I started hearing and seeing. One example: A few years back, before FP+, our CFO took his family to the World for a week. They stayed at the GF. When he returned, being the WDW enthusiast that I am, I asked how it went. He said they hated it. His words, "Spent $10k and didn't really get to ride anything great, as the only way was to get there early, and we weren't doing that." I could be wrong or misinterpreting posts, but it seems to me the people who like FP+ are the ones who come in later, and aren't going commando or RDing. I would venture to guess that this type of WDW traveler is more affluent than your commando crowd. That's a complete guess on my part, obviously. It affords that crowd a way to get the most popular attractions without having to get there at RD everyday. It frees them up to eat at the character buffets. Again, this is all just a guess on my part, but to me it makes sense.

And they did start offering another bone to this crowd in terms of the club level FP+. Which, in my mind, offers up further proof of my theory.

I think the truly affluent don't actually even bother with the fastpass they just get the VIP tour guides which is your automatic front of the line pass with no need to plan anything, just a willingness to hand over several hundred dollars per hour.... And if I ever win the lottery, that's what I'll be doing.... until then I'm stuck with the rest of the world standing a line or scrambling for a fastpass.

 

[hopemax]

I'm not following your logic.

Assume you open the ride in the morning that has the 2000/hour rate... That doesn't mean that the first 2000 people in line wait an hour. It means that if the line is 2000 people long with no fastpass that any new visitor walking up to the line would stand for 1 hour. It also means that when the line was only 1000 people long that the person walking up would only be there for 30 minutes...The total number of people willing to wait in line 1 hour or 90 minutes doesn't change based on the length of the lines because the people see the sign saying 60 minutes or 90 minutes or whatever it may be.

So I'm not sure why you need to find 2000 people willing to wait 60 minutes vs 600 willing to wait 90... The fact that you have 90 minute waits for any given ride means you have by definition gotten people willing to wait 90 minutes regardless of the number of people in front of them.

I'm also unsure why FP people will be split? They aren't in the standby line, they are in the FP line.

Let's start with the bolded first. They are split because I am talking about the world without FP. Therefore, there is NO FP line for these people to be standing in. So those people have to be re-distributed somewhere. I am saying some will get in line (FP is a convenience, but they would have ridden anyway), and some will go elsewhere (I am not waiting in that XXmin line!).

As for the rest, I'm not sure what your trying to say. Obviously, the first moments of operation are going to act differently. But at some point of the day, the ride will be at full capacity, and the queue will be full with X number of people. For each ride, I assume that a 60 min wait is going to have some predictable number of people as a function of it's total ride capacity. Maybe it's not 2000 people for a 2000 pph ride. But it's something X, and that stays fairly constant. Same for a 90 min wait Y, or 120 min wait Z. And I'm assuming Z<Y<X If the number of people in the queue drops below those numbers the actual wait time will be shorter. As you said if there are only 1000 people in the line, it's 30 min.

Then we introduce FP. SOME people will not be in the standby because they got a FP. But we can't say that ALL people that were in the standby will get a FP because some people who got FP are the people who "didn't want to wait that long, and now they can ride, woo hoo!" But there was no additional ride capacity added, so something has to give

We're now looking at a X', Y', Z' where the number of people needed in a queue to generate a 60, 90 or 120 min line has changed. When up to 80% of ride capacity has been diverted to FP, it takes less people in standby to meet those threshholds. So X'<X, Y'<Y and Z'<Z.

This is why I'm talking about 600 people vs 2000. 2000 is like X and 600 is like Y' or Z'. The lines are able to reach the higher numbers because it takes less people in order to maintain a queue of the number of people required to sustain a 60 min or 90 min wait. AND there are enough people still remaining in the standby line to hit the new Y' or Z'. Result: higher wait times.

(of course, this is based in the assumption that Disney is metering fast pass availablity in order to keep the standby line running at somewhat of an equivalent wait time as it would without fastpass.. just lessening the need for a 2000 person queue because half those people will be walkups at their allotted time).

This would be, IMO, a very poor assumption.

I am of the belief that Disney didn't adequately consider the number of people who WEREN'T riding under a "no FP system," who jumped at the chance for a FP (and these people are the most motivated to get a FP so they have to be considered). Therefore, the physical number of bodies in the standby line did not drop as much as one would think. It's not a matter of simply shifting people from a physical line to a virtual one. FP is pulling from an additional "pool" of riders (and I don't mean an overall increase in attendance. But the grumpy people sitting on a bench or wandering around because they didn't want to wait in line) with no corresponding increase in ride capacity. How big this group is, is where all the "drama" happens. Then those remaining in standby had a choice, continue to wait or leave the queue. And what we are seeing is that many continue to wait. Enough to push the wait times up to higher levels despite there being fewer physical numbers of bodies in the standby.

To use my numbers again... For a 2000 pph ride, Disney thought if they gave 1400 people a FP, that would mean there would only be 600 people in standby. In reality, 400 "new" people got FP, and so only 1000 people in standby got FP. Leaving 1000 people in standby still to be dealt with. But now there are only 600 seats for them because of the 1400 walkups.

 

[EricsBiscuit]

The people standing in the stand-by line likely wouldn't have to wait as long if there weren't people cutting in front of them courtesy the FP line. True, those people would be in the regular line like them, but how many just wouldn't get in the line if they had to wait 40 minutes versus 10?

but the total number of people doing the attraction would stay the same. The wait will always be whatever most people think that attraction is worth waiting. The only difference I see is the amount of people in the standby line and how fast it moves.

 

[larryz]

but the total number of people doing the attraction would stay the same. The wait will always be whatever most people think that attraction is worth waiting. The only difference I see is the amount of people in the standby line and how fast it moves.

True that each attraction has an hourly capacity, and assuming that each ride is fully staffed for maximum load and unload efficiency, then the total wait time for all riders shouldn't be any longer than the pre-FP days.

The trick is to find a FP-to-stand-by ratio that doesn't needlessly penalize those who didn't or couldn't score a FP+.