Were the lines really shorter back in the day or do we imagine this?

[MickeyLuv'r]

So confusing. FP is a benefit that can be marketed. It doesn’t mean FP was created to market or “hype” rides. I already told you why it was created.

Oh, goodness!

 

[Goofyernmost]

fun fact: I didn't say I got a rush.

Seriously, have you never heard of Pavlovian theory?

People don't act rationally. They act emotionally. Disney wants to promote a conditioned response, not a rational one in their customers. FP gives their customers a rush. It has nothing to do with how long anyone else waits.

There also is such a thing as a general usage "you"*. Fun Fact: you doesn't always mean you personally.

I have heard of Pavlov and his experiments and if human beings were dogs I would agree with it, but, we are human with alleged ability to reason and understand. Competitiveness is probably a more suitable word to use when referring to a human. The problem is that if it is a rush, as I said, that is at the expense of other humans. And it is a small percentage of customers. They all paid the same amount to get in to the park and a certain few had special privilege that was given out completely at random until a part of the customer base was excluded. It never has been good business to make a few happy and tick off a lot of others. Perhaps you are mistaking rush for guilt.

Spoiler: you* one of the definitions...

one; anyone; people in general:a tiny animal you can't even see.

 

[NickMaio]

This is not even a debate.... I used to go in Aug for a few years and pretty much walked on most rides... I remember doing Aero Smith and walking on the ride... That is not the case ever anymore...

How long ago was this - - - Aug is usually packed.

 

[Professortango1]

How long ago was this - - - Aug is usually packed.

I went 2 years ago in August and it was like this. We walked on most attractions at WDW and Universal.

 

[Walt Disney1955]

For sure attendance has gone up. That is a no-brainer. I already factored that in. But there weren't 4 parks and there were also less attractions per park. Magic Kingdom had less attractions 40 years ago than today. So in a way you have to wonder how much that cancels the higher attendance out. I agree that fastpass can sometimes hamper things. When we went this time my cousin had his phone out constantly checking the wait times and getting a new fastpass whenever he could. That's okay and all, but I am more used to flying by the seat of your pants. I know the park like the back of my hand and know how to navigate if there is a long line. There is always something you can see right next to it. When I think about the pre-fast pass days I too remember that while some lines were long we were always moving. Small World was practically a walk-on. Pirates was generally a walk on and if anything you wanted to hang around the queue a bit more because it was so neat. I never have seen Pirates past 20-25 minutes and those are always worst case scenarios. But it got me thinking, how much shorter is the line if there are no fastpasses? I mean, not all of the rides need a fastpass. Pirates never did.

 

[The Empress Lilly]

I wasn't all that old when Epcot first opened, but I recall it as a place where the attention was not really on what I'd call e-rides.

I've always viewed the back half of Epcot - more or less - as a pretty shopping mall. There were a few attractions, but they weren't the main focus. Epcot was more about exploring at your own pace. You could stop and see live performers, shop, and maybe see one of the "circle-vision 360" films.

Many of the early Future World rides were roughly in the style of Spaceship Earth and the recently closed Energy Pavilion (though that was before the exciting Ellen overlay). They were educational with lots of animatronics, but they weren't what I'd consider to be classic E-rides. There were no coasters, or anything like Test Track.

Mostly, I've always thought of Epcot as a park that isn't centered on thrill rides.

I remember the original Innoventions ( Communicore) had a giant population clock. Communicore and post-ride Imagination had interactive areas that were similar to the kind of displays found in a science museum. That was the first place I saw a pin (art) toy. I also remember we had to wait our turn to see each of the stations I the post-ride Imagination. It wasn't one long line, but it took a rather long time to see everything.

The Future World Pavilions were roughly equal to each other, and big draws, but I would not say they were ever "e-rides' in the same sense as Space Mtn. is an e-ride.

WS was sadly never finished. The rides were never build. The attractions that were, all took longer than their lines, which they swallowed whole.

As for FW not consisting of E-tickets, there's no accounting for taste. For me, six minutes through an actual build environment of real prehistoric life is immensely more powerful and emotionally engrossing than three minutes of pretending you are on the back of one big animal, that is fake, and which you watch on a screen.

 

[monothingie]

Quite a few attractions had higher capacity too, and the majority of rides were so managed that the line kept shuffling steadily forwards for the most part. Yes, there were long lines depending on the time of year but you rarely stood on the same spot for long.

Splash prior to paper FP was a perfect example of a 60-90 minute wait that constantly moved. The outdoor queue area spread across two lines was probably Disney imagineering at its best. My favorite time to be in that queue was after dark.

 

[SSH]

I always remember SM as an interminable wait in the '80s/90s - and as native Floridians, we went many times every year, throughout the years. The only time that ride had a wait time I could deal with was late at night, just before park close, since I was never a rope dropper. But so many other rides - the people eater ones - were walkons almost anytime - pirates, haunted mansion, small world, peoplemover.

 

[MickeyLuv'r]

For sure attendance has gone up. That is a no-brainer. I already factored that in. But there weren't 4 parks and there were also less attractions per park. Magic Kingdom had less attractions 40 years ago than today.

Agree.

I'd also say that beyond what we'd normally call attractions, Disney keeps making new efforts to put more people in even more parts of their property to accommodate more people.

(It isn't just a one way thing though. They've also taken some things away, too, especially as people lost interest. A good example are the little stage shows, like the one in Tomorrowland, the one beside the Castle, and the ones in the World Showcase. Often those stages have performers, but sometimes they sit empty for extended periods.)

Character meals were also a brilliant addition, especially when they combined characters with buffets. Makes more meals into a type of attraction. (Though meal/show combos go way back at WDW.) I imagine Disney carefully runs the numbers where meals are concerned. Is it better to have people eating slow $$$ meals or quick $ meals?

In-park Characters are another form of soft attraction. How long will people wait in line to see Mickey? Aurora? Doug? And Bonus, character greets can also double as advertising new movies!

 

[Incomudro]

20K was a notorious slow load.

I went to WDW the year it opened when I was in third grade, and memories of incredibly long waits through the switchbacks at 20K and Jungle Cruise are seared - quite literally by the heat - in my brain at those two locations.

 

[MickeyLuv'r]

There also is such a thing as a general usage "you"*. Fun Fact: you doesn't always mean you personally.

I have heard of Pavlov and his experiments and if human beings were dogs I would agree with it, but, we are human with alleged ability to reason and understand. Competitiveness is probably a more suitable word to use when referring to a human. The problem is that if it is a rush, as I said, that is at the expense of other humans. And it is a small percentage of customers. They all paid the same amount to get in to the park and a certain few had special privilege that was given out completely at random until a part of the customer base was excluded. It never has been good business to make a few happy and tick off a lot of others. Perhaps you are mistaking rush for guilt.

Spoiler: you* one of the definitions...

one; anyone; people in general:a tiny animal you can't even see.

Yes, but when a specific poster quotes my post, it sure reads as if that poster is directing their post towards me personally. I accept your apology. We now agree that neither of us was talking about me.

Here is a little more information about Classical Conditioning (Pavlov's discovery) for all of my friends in this thread:

So what do dogs and bells have to do with addiction? Recall that in Pavlov's experiment, the bell served as a cue to the dogs. Food was on its way! Likewise, certain cues (also called relapse triggers) have a powerful effect on addicted persons. These cues can result in a relapse because the brain linked the cues and the addiction. For instance, suppose someone always smokes marijuana in the car on the way home from work. The car and marijuana form a paired association. Thus, the car signals marijuana is on its way, just as the bell signaled to Pavlov's dogs that food was coming. Once the car has become a conditioned stimulus (a cue), the car itself can now trigger powerful cravings. Remember how Pavlov's dogs began to salivate at the sound of the bell? We could say the bell created a craving for food. This is the same for the addict and the car. The car creates powerful cravings. Cravings frequently result in relapse. (Centersite.net "classical Conditioning and Addiction by A. Tom Horvath, Ph.D., ABPP, Kaushik Misra, Ph.D., Amy K. Epner, Ph.D., and Galen Morgan Cooper, Ph.D.)

There also is such a thing as a general usage "you"*. Fun Fact: you doesn't always mean you personally.... Perhaps you are mistaking rush for guilt.

Here at the end of his post, I assume Goofyernmost meant "you" again in the "general" sense, not me personally? I think it would be helpful to everyone if we all tried to use more precise language.

But since Goofyernmost quoted my post, here's my response:

Please show us some evidence that WDW guests feel "guilt" for using FP. Has the program been unpopular? Does Disney have plans to end the program in the near future?

 

[Goofyernmost]

Yes, but when you are quote my post, it sure reads that way. But okay, I accept your apology. We now agree that neither of us was talking about me.

Here is a little more information about Classical Conditioning (Pavlov's discovery) for all of my friends in this thread:

So what do dogs and bells have to do with addiction? Recall that in Pavlov's experiment, the bell served as a cue to the dogs. Food was on its way! Likewise, certain cues (also called relapse triggers) have a powerful effect on addicted persons. These cues can result in a relapse because the brain linked the cues and the addiction. For instance, suppose someone always smokes marijuana in the car on the way home from work. The car and marijuana form a paired association. Thus, the car signals marijuana is on its way, just as the bell signaled to Pavlov's dogs that food was coming. Once the car has become a conditioned stimulus (a cue), the car itself can now trigger powerful cravings. Remember how Pavlov's dogs began to salivate at the sound of the bell? We could say the bell created a craving for food. This is the same for the addict and the car. The car creates powerful cravings. Cravings frequently result in relapse. (Centersite.net "classical Conditioning and Addiction by A. Tom Horvath, Ph.D., ABPP, Kaushik Misra, Ph.D., Amy K. Epner, Ph.D., and Galen Morgan Cooper, Ph.D.)

Here at the end of his post, I assume Goofyernmost meant "you" again in the "general" sense, not me personally? I think it would be helpful to everyone if we all tried to use more precise language.

But since Goofyernmost quoted my post, here's my response:

Please show us some evidence that WDW guests feel "guilt" for using FP. Has the program been unpopular? Does Disney have plans to end the program in the near future?

You in the general sense is very common usage in the English language. I can't help it if you, meaning you personally, are not familiar with that usage. You, and in this case it is, you personally, are taking this way beyond necessity. It's a nitpicking incorrect statement to say that it isn't precise language.

On the "guilt issue. I can return with, give me some proof that anyone feels a rush. In a rush maybe, but, I'm not sure that it is defined as a rush so much as a "I just got away with something that is upsetting a bunch of people". "I feel bad for them, but, hooray for me", otherwise there would be no emotion at all. With that I will end anymore wasting of my time on this topic. Pavlov's dogs responding to a bell, but, how it relates to human behavior is strictly theory. I kind of think of myself as a higher intellectual level then a dog, but, I will not be offended that you, personally, just compared me, personally, to one.

 

[Shouldigo12]

You in the general sense is very common usage in the English language. I can't help it if you, meaning you personally, are not familiar with that usage. You, and in this case it is, you personally, are taking this way beyond necessity. It's a nitpicking incorrect statement to say that it isn't precise language.

On the "guilt issue. I can return with, give me some proof that anyone feels a rush. In a rush maybe, but, I'm not sure that it is defined as a rush so much as a "I just got away with something that is upsetting a bunch of people". "I feel bad for them, but, hooray for me", otherwise there would be no emotion at all. With that I will end anymore wasting of my time on this topic. Pavlov's dogs responding to a bell, but, how it relates to human behavior is strictly theory. I kind of think of myself as a higher intellectual level then a dog, but, I will not be offended that you, personally, just compared me, personally, to one.

As far as the "I'm smarter than a dog and therefore Pavlov does not apply to me" goes, look up B.F Skinner and hai experiments. That should show you that it does, in fact, apply to humans (although his ideas did vary slightly from Pavlov.

 

[MickeyLuv'r]

You in the general sense is very common usage in the English language. I can't help it if you, meaning you personally, are not familiar with that usage. You, and in this case it is, you personally, are taking this way beyond necessity. It's a nitpicking incorrect statement to say that it isn't precise language..

I, personally, am laughing!

 

[networkpro]

Which "day"? Ticket book days when individual ride costs held sway?

 

[networkpro]

As far as the "I'm smarter than a dog and therefore Pavlov does not apply to me" goes, look up B.F Skinner and hai experiments. That should show you that it does, in fact, apply to humans (although his ideas did vary slightly from Pavlov.

So these forums are the mental equivalent of a Skinner Rat Box? Katibug treats for maligning anything Disney does that you don't agree with? I'd buy that for a dollar!

 

[Shouldigo12]

So these forums are the mental equivalent of a Skinner Rat Box? Katibug treats for maligning anything Disney does that you don't agree with? I'd buy that for a dollar!

I'm a bit confused here. I never mentioned anything about Disney.

 

[Walt Disney1955]

I have come to the conclusion that fast passes have hindered more than they've helped. Spaceship Earth does not need a fast pass. It is a continuous moving ride not unlike the Peoplemover. Peter Pan did not need a fast pass. No way was there a 60 minute wait for it back in the 1990s. It was always longer than say, Snow White, but generally always continuous too. Small World does not need a fast pass. Heck, Mickey's Philharmagic has one! Why? It is a show. Shows don't need them. Even Splash Mountain doesn't need one. Honestly. It is out of all the mountains the fastest loaded ride. It is about as continuous as a log ride can be. You always were moving prior to the fastpasses.

We rode the Gran Fiesta Tour the other day. I was shocked at the line. It said 10 minutes, but it wasn't that long. Maybe 5. Also, we never stopped moving. Someone was always moving in the line, you could see it. It was a bit of a throwback before the lines would be at a standstill.

Lastly, Soarin' does not need one either. It loads well and plentiful and seems to always be continuously loading one side or another. The fast passes screw this up.

 

[Lensman]

You in the general sense is very common usage in the English language. I can't help it if you, meaning you personally, are not familiar with that usage. You, and in this case it is, you personally, are taking this way beyond necessity. It's a nitpicking incorrect statement to say that it isn't precise language.

I'm not picking on you, nor is my intent to patronize, and finally, I'm going against my instincts which are to try not to give unsolicited advice, but I know you're open to new ideas so I thought I'd give it a shot...

I stopped using the "used to refer to any person in general" usage of the word "you" a while back because it was too-often confused with the "used to refer to the person or people that the speaker is addressing" usage. Besides, then my then-girlfriend HR specialist advised me to avoid the use of the word "you" in reviews because apparently when one addresses people with "you" when saying something potentially negative it immediately sets up an antagonism in the person. Apparently it's one of those hippocampus-triggering words.

Also, I am reminded that in formal writing, one should avoid the second-person "you" and instead use third-person "one" or the equivalent.

But enough with the grammarian bull...

On the "guilt issue. I can return with, give me some proof that anyone feels a rush. In a rush maybe, but, I'm not sure that it is defined as a rush so much as a "I just got away with something that is upsetting a bunch of people". "I feel bad for them, but, hooray for me", otherwise there would be no emotion at all. With that I will end anymore wasting of my time on this topic. Pavlov's dogs responding to a bell, but, how it relates to human behavior is strictly theory. I kind of think of myself as a higher intellectual level then a dog, but, I will not be offended that you, personally, just compared me, personally, to one.

Wasn't there a thread where we* discussed how satisfaction rates went up when there was a short wait for a ride vs. a walk-on? This is consistent with some psychological studies that showed that you experience greater pleasure at receiving a reward when there is some anticipation of the reward that one would get after expending some effort or going through some minor pain to receive it. This could also be due to the "scarcity effect" where people place a higher value on an object that is scarce and a lower value on one that is available in abundance. So when there's a line you are biased to think that the ride is of higher value than if there is no one waiting to go on it.

According to these theories, it would be acceptable to blend the Fastpass line and the standby line in some variable ratio so as to not hold up the standby line entirely and keep it moving, which creating an artificial scarcity in the Fastpass line, increasing the anticipatory pleasure of the Fastpasers and simultaneously increasing the value they place on the ride.

 

[Goofyernmost]

I'm not picking on you, nor is my intent to patronize, and finally, I'm going against my instincts which are to try not to give unsolicited advice, but I know you're open to new ideas so I thought I'd give it a shot...

I stopped using the "used to refer to any person in general" usage of the word "you" a while back because it was too-often confused with the "used to refer to the person or people that the speaker is addressing" usage. Besides, then my then-girlfriend HR specialist advised me to avoid the use of the word "you" in reviews because apparently when one addresses people with "you" when saying something potentially negative it immediately sets up an antagonism in the person. Apparently it's one of those hippocampus-triggering words.

Also, I am reminded that in formal writing, one should avoid the second-person "you" and instead use third-person "one" or the equivalent.

But enough with the grammarian bull****...


Wasn't there a thread where we* discussed how satisfaction rates went up when there was a short wait for a ride vs. a walk-on? This is consistent with some psychological studies that showed that you experience greater pleasure at receiving a reward when there is some anticipation of the reward that one would get after expending some effort or going through some minor pain to receive it. This could also be due to the "scarcity effect" where people place a higher value on an object that is scarce and a lower value on one that is available in abundance. So when there's a line you are biased to think that the ride is of higher value than if there is no one waiting to go on it.

According to these theories, it would be acceptable to blend the Fastpass line and the standby line in some variable ratio so as to not hold up the standby line entirely and keep it moving, which creating an artificial scarcity in the Fastpass line, increasing the anticipatory pleasure of the Fastpasers and simultaneously increasing the value they place on the ride.

I'll take your advice under consideration. It is difficult to know exactly whom will not realize that this is a discussion board with many people participating. Besides using the word one, constantly sounds way to British for my liking. But, I guess one can learn, can't one. How'd I do?

As for the satisfaction rate, I have no objection to that thought. But, it should apply to everyone, not just those that got lucky and were able to obtain a FP. For the number that are feeling real satisfied there is at least an equal number that are completely dissatisfied. I know Disney is successful, but, one has to wonder how long they can maintain that business only making around half the guests happy. We were satisfied back when there was no FP at all, because we all kept moving and we were all getting the same satisfaction for our dollar. That isn't happening anymore and like I said, I don't want to give others that "rush" at my expense. That doesn't satisfy me. And even those that get that limited "rush" will be quickly forfeiting it back when they are in the forced slower line on the attractions that they couldn't get a FP to cover. At the end of the day, instead of having everyone satisfied continuously, people are having to deal with the ups and downs between satisfied and frustrated. In my mind, anytime frustration and anger enters the scene it creates a blockage to a warm fuzzy feeling.