WDWFreak53, car discussion

[garyhoov]

After seeing the Malibu in person at the car show...I REALLY liked it. They need an SS version. I would definitely put it above the 3 Series. I say that after being in Tina's friends' brand new 335. The Malibu is just sharp...I love the interior (hated the 335's), and the styling is so much nicer.

I liked the Volt because it had sharp lines...and it still looked like a Chevy. This new styling has no personality...it's like they gave up and instead of pushing the envelope...they put a familiar face on something unfamiliar. All cars, nowadays, look alike.

For instance...aside from size...

Avenger, Charger, Magnum, Caliber. Heck, even the Ram and Dakota. They all have the same look. (This is why I like the Challenger...looks completely different)

Altima, Sentra, Maxima, Z, Versa, Rogue...all have the same look.

Don't even get me started on the Pontiacs.

The Volt still had the look of a Chevy...but was completely different. Now...it just blends in with the rest.

Ford is really the only company that has variety. Sure, their trucks all look the same...but the Mustang, Taurus, Focus vehicles...they all look different.

I agree styling has gotten very boring. The thing with the Volt is the over-all shape works for me better than the details. I like the low, predatory look of the Volt, and hopefully they'll retain that. I think we need to see the whole package to decide how bad they screwed it up.

Also with the volt, I think function needs to trump form, and clearly Bob Lutz indicated that the orginal design just didn't work in the wind-tunnel, so even if it is uglier, I'll take it if it works better.

 

[garyhoov]

Here's a good shot of the original for comparison:

 

[WDWFREAK53]

I agree styling has gotten very boring. The thing with the Volt is the over-all shape works for me better than the details. I like the low, predatory look of the Volt, and hopefully they'll retain that. I think we need to see the whole package to decide how bad they screwed it up.

Also with the volt, I think function needs to trump form, and clearly Bob Lutz indicated that the orginal design just didn't work in the wind-tunnel, so even if it is uglier, I'll take it if it works better.

Yes, I'll hold COMPLETE judgement until I see the final product...but, right now, from that picture, it looks like they didn't hold any of the original stance or lines...and they basically just put the Volt motor/technology into an off-the-shelf body.

9 out of 10 times I'm disappointed with the production models after seeing the concepts...but this doesn't even look like the same vehicle. The Mustang REALLY disappointed me...but the production model has grown on me. The Camaro from Transformers...and on the website and everything...is that the production model or have we not seen that yet? How about the Challenger? Was that the production model?

If not, the production Challenger will probably have that big ugly crosshair grill...and basically look like a coupe version of the Charger.

 

[garyhoov]

That is frustrating, isn't it? It seems to me they'd be better served by not showing the concept rather than showing a great concept and a mediocre car.

I give Bob Lutz credit though. He brought the Solstice to market nearly unchanged, so I trust him when he says that they're re-working the Volt for aerodynamic reasons.

The Crossfire also comes to mind as another car that made it to market nearly unchanged (though maybe that one could have used a few tweeks:lookaroun)

The Challenger and Camaro also look like they'll be very faithful. On thing that bothers me is when they seem to intentionally show things that we all know will never make it to production.

For example: B-pillars. Designers seem to hate B-pillars, and they always seem to show cars without B-pillars when we know they'll show up in production.

What's so bad about B-pillars? Why not just incorporate a nice-looking one into the concept?

Another example is wheels. They always have outrageously over-sized wheels on the concepts and then put real ones on the production cars. I say either show real wheels on the concept or offer the other ones at least as options on the production car.

 

[garyhoov]

How about the new V-12 Vantage:

One pet peeve of mine has been that Ferrari, Porsche and ( up until now ) Aston Martin all put their top engines in their oversized cars rather than putting them in their sportier models.

http://www.autoblog.com/2007/12/11/breaking-aston-martin-shoehorns-v12-into-vantage-rs/

Now if Ferrari will follow their lead and put the V-12 in the 430 then maybe Porsche will put the 911 turbo engine in the Cayman.

 

[WDWFREAK53]

Oh you hit it on the head with the wheels!

Look at those Camaro rims...incredible. Look at those Challenger rims...Again...awesome.

They design the rims to go with the car...but yet don't offer them. It's almost like Disney designing Everest to be a train ride...and then turning it into a mine car. Sure, it may still work...but not the same effect...and not the way it was intended.

 

[flynnibus]

simple... concept cars are intended to be fantasy. They aren't 'previews' they are concepts. Now with these pre-production concepts I agree, you should be a bit more true to reality - but its about marketing and pizazz.. not practicality.

I mean.. who's going to create buzz about the latest Camery-styled 'real world' car. It would be pointless to show them at a show - just send out photos and have reviews.

Concepts at this higher level are supposed to inspire and awe - practical isn't necessary.

20" rims with 10" width look cool...until you hit the pot hole on your street and crack that concept rim

 

[garyhoov]

Here's a cool video about the new GM design center for the Volt:

http://www.youtube.com/v/x-JVPLZ22Tg&rel=1

 

[WDWFREAK53]

20" rims with 10" width look cool...until you hit the pot hole on your street and crack that concept rim

There are more 20" rims rolling down the street now than anything else! They could at least OFFER the rim to us.

 

[garyhoov]

I actually like these rims better than the concept. I wonder if they're the production ones? Probably not since that would be something very easy to switch.:

 

[WDWFREAK53]

Eh, I like the concept ones much better.. That's just a matter of taste though.

 

[garyhoov]

I'm guessing the ones off the mule are just off-the-shelf after market ones, but I like that simple, functional look.

The ones on the concept aren't bad at all (particularly compared to some of the over-done ones they put on show cars), but I particularly like the ones on the mule.

 

[garyhoov]

. . . and a nearly undisguised Camaro:

 

[garyhoov]

Very interesting article on the Volt design:

http://www.autobloggreen.com/2007/1...ng-touring-the-e-flex-design-studio-and-gm-w/

"The line from the roof to the rear deck is much like the concept. The base of the windshield has moved forward providing more rake to the glass. It appears the center line of the front axle has moved back a bit allowing for more front overhang while the front corners are swept back to provide better airflow as well as helping to meet European pedestrian safety standards. The other main visual difference that was apparent from hints around the studio was a reduction of the Coke bottle effect along the sides. While the concept had prominently flared fenders, this will be toned down significantly to help keep the airflow attached to the sides. One other design element that will be prominently maintained on the sides is the plug ports since this is such an important part of what this car is all about."

 

[WDWFREAK53]

. . . and a nearly undisguised Camaro:

Uh ohhhh...the Camaro looks like it will have the same fate the Mustang production model did.

That picture scares me. Where are the cool details? No side vents! The stylish side mirrors have been replaced with ordinary ones...and something looks very "blah" about the overall shape of the car. Hmmm...Now I'm worried.

 

[WDWFREAK53]

Very interesting article on the Volt design:

http://www.autobloggreen.com/2007/1...ng-touring-the-e-flex-design-studio-and-gm-w/

"The line from the roof to the rear deck is much like the concept. The base of the windshield has moved forward providing more rake to the glass. It appears the center line of the front axle has moved back a bit allowing for more front overhang while the front corners are swept back to provide better airflow as well as helping to meet European pedestrian safety standards. The other main visual difference that was apparent from hints around the studio was a reduction of the Coke bottle effect along the sides. While the concept had prominently flared fenders, this will be toned down significantly to help keep the airflow attached to the sides. One other design element that will be prominently maintained on the sides is the plug ports since this is such an important part of what this car is all about."

Ok, take this photo...

http://www.autobloggreen.com/photos/chevy-volt-concept-1/121366/

Yes, that's a very EXTREME design...and obviously it wasn't going into production looking like that. I understand that. But honestly...if you were to just change the glass at the doors...and change the headlamps so that they weren't so expensive...you could basically put the same styled car into production. The "Coke bottle effect" looks so cool...and the flared fenders give it a muscular, yet sexy stance. This car obviously isn't going to be a rocket...that's not what it's intended to be...but you can still push the envelope of design while pushing the envelope of technology.

 

[garyhoov]

Ok, take this photo...

http://www.autobloggreen.com/photos/chevy-volt-concept-1/121366/

Yes, that's a very EXTREME design...and obviously it wasn't going into production looking like that. I understand that. But honestly...if you were to just change the glass at the doors...and change the headlamps so that they weren't so expensive...you could basically put the same styled car into production. The "Coke bottle effect" looks so cool...and the flared fenders give it a muscular, yet sexy stance. This car obviously isn't going to be a rocket...that's not what it's intended to be...but you can still push the envelope of design while pushing the envelope of technology.

It may be partly because it's white, but most of the details and contours seem to have been lost, don't they? That sharp ridge along the bottom edge is definetely gone and the fender bulges seem much more subdued.

I'm guessing the stampings to produce those sharp details proved too costly leading to another watered down production version.

But the biggest concern I have is the roof-line. I wasn't a huge fan of the concept, but I liked that low, aggressive roof-line. That seems to have been lost in favor of a higher, more practical line on this one . . . pushing it toward looking more like a Charger.

 

[WDWFREAK53]

It may be partly because it's white, but most of the details and contours seem to have been lost, don't they? That sharp ridge along the bottom edge is definetely gone and the fender bulges seem much more subdued.

I'm guessing the stampings to produce those sharp details proved too costly leading to another watered down production version.

But the biggest concern I have is the roof-line. I wasn't a huge fan of the concept, but I liked that low, aggressive roof-line. That seems to have been lost in favor of a higher, more practical line on this one . . . pushing it toward looking more like a Charger.

I saw a Charger on the ride in and told Tina...the new Camaro is a 2-door Charger...that's all it is. Sure, I need to see it without the masks...but, from what I can tell, they took all of its personality away from it.

Let's see how Dodge screws up the Challenger.

(At least they kept the rims similar!)

 

[flynnibus]

The Camero shot posted above looks totally boring.

All of these 'retro' cars are just way too HUGE! The current mustang looked very sharp.. until you saw it in person and realized it looked like someone hit the ZOOM button on their PC before they hit print.

At this rate.. is this the 1970s again..? does this mean in 201X that another new import area (maybe Korea or others) will finally make a break-out by offering cars that counter the massive bulk, poor efficiencies, and otherwise massive land boats that America is putting out?

Its getting to be like... they are trying to set a new trend... large is hot.. and then put a 300lb hooker in front of you and expect you to get hot. They say she sucks like a hoover and will go like hell... but she's still a still a land barge that 5-10 years from now you'll look back and go 'OMG.. what was I thinking'

 

[garyhoov]

The Camero shot posted above looks totally boring.

All of these 'retro' cars are just way too HUGE! The current mustang looked very sharp.. until you saw it in person and realized it looked like someone hit the ZOOM button on their PC before they hit print.

At this rate.. is this the 1970s again..? does this mean in 201X that another new import area (maybe Korea or others) will finally make a break-out by offering cars that counter the massive bulk, poor efficiencies, and otherwise massive land boats that America is putting out?

Its getting to be like... they are trying to set a new trend... large is hot.. and then put a 300lb hooker in front of you and expect you to get hot. They say she sucks like a hoover and will go like hell... but she's still a still a land barge that 5-10 years from now you'll look back and go 'OMG.. what was I thinking'

I drive a small American car. The Pontiac Solstice is smaller and lighter than your Japanese car. There are plenty of people making small cars from all countries, but the American consumer has always wanted large cars and until it changes on the demand side, don't expect the supply side to lead the way.

Philisophically, I agree with you. I've never liked large cars. . . but I look down my street and I see SUV after SUV after SUV.

BMW, Lexus, Infiniti etc. are all making large cars for the US market, and none of them are going broke. The Cayanne (as horrible as it is) has been a cash cow for Porsche. It took forever for us to get the 1-series, because BMW assumed (rightly or wrongly) that American consumers didn't want it.

You and I are in the minority.

Let's put it this way. If I offered you 1% of the gross sales dollars of the Camaro or 1% of the gross sales the Lotus Exige, which would you take? And you can replace the Exige with any other car you want. I'm hoping for a smaller, lighter 350Z in 2009, and while I might buy one, I wouldn't for a moment assume it will outsell the Camaro.