Walt, Bob, IP

It Is What It Is

Active Member
Original Poster
It is fascinating to watch the IP debates on the forums. So much angst. And part of me gets it: your beloved parks are changing. Change is very hard for some people, yet change is inevitable.

I'm sure I've crossed over into the latter half of life. A few years ago, I saw a commercial that didn't make sense to me, a younger friend said, “I learned that if you see an ad that you don't get, it wasn't made for you.” And the lightbulb went off: a lot of the time, I'm not the targeted demographic.

I think of this when I read the forums: the parks are changing for the younger generations. So many can't handle this but, it's going to happen. And a lot of it has to do with IP. When I think of IP, I'm sure these will be fighting words for many, I see similarities in Walt and Bob. Let me explain:

A young Walt, an entrepreneur, wanted to be in control of his destiny. Animation in film was the future and he was interested in getting involved. He dabbled in the business for a few years until Oswald the Lucky Rabbit did well in 1927. His first somewhat successful IP. An argument could be made that was a take on Felix the Cat which had been doing well since it's debut in 1919. Universal leveraged Oswald away from Walt in 1928. Mortimer Mouse took his place, I mean Mickey (thank you Lillian)! Walt was not the most talented artist in the room, Ub Iwerks was. But Walt, an entrepreneur, thought outside the box, “let's add sound!” Steamboat Willy/Mickey Mouse took off.

“Let's make a movie!”, decided Walt. Did he use original IP? No, he adapted a story that some German guy wrote nearly a century before and we now have Snow White and the Seven Dwarves. Pinocchio, Bambi, Cinderella, original IP? No, no, no. All works by someone else. Winnie the Pooh and Mary Poppins? Purchased IP.

Moving on to Disneyland, Walt the entrepreneur, saw how bad amusement parks were run before Disneyland. “I'm going to make a family friendly one”, the man thought. And he did. Walt saw something and knew how to plus it!

Let's look at the lands: Fantasyland, we know they were based on the film's which were not his IP. Frontierland? What was the hot show of 1954? Davy Crockett, king of the wild frontier, which is based on the man named Davy Crockett. Original IP? I don't think so. Main Street? Kind of based on the small towns of Walt’s life. Tomorrowland and Adventureland? Little boys were fascinated with space and safaris. There wasn't an internet to watch videos of your favorite subject back then. Bring that to the kids. It was smart business.

Rides: Haunted Mansion? Haunted homes walkthroughs became a thing during the Great Depression, Walt plussed the concept. He plussed it very well. Pirates of the Caribbean? Yes. Obviously, pirates had been around, but putting animatronics, pirates and a boat ride together was brilliant! Small World? Sure. But as you can see, the majority of what Walt did was based on existing ideas or works.

Walt is awesome and I'm glad his dreams came true because my life is better because of his dreams. The man, in my opinion, should be considered one of the best entrepreneurs of all time. Walt, as an entrepreneur, set the mold for Steve Jobs, Elon Musk and others.

But, what about Bob? No, the man is not an entrepreneur. But looking at the numbers, I would say that Bob is a better businessman than Walt. The Walt Disney Company was close to collapse a couple times under Walt. After Walt’s passing. the company got itself into financial trouble and was close to hostile takeover. It is unlikely now that there will be a takeover of the company. which would be all for the legacy of my favorite entrepreneur. Financially, the Walt Disney Company is in the best shape its ever been.

What about Bob and the Parks? Bob has invested in the Parks. I might not be the biggest Guardians of the Galaxy fan, doesn't mean the new roller coaster in Epcot isn't going to be well done. I didn't like the idea of Tower of Terror in California Adventure transitioning to GotG, but after riding it, I thought it was a better ride than ToT. Doesn't mean that I still don't like the concept of ToT better, but it is what it is. Three new ships coming online, very exciting! Galaxy's Edge looks incredible, I'm looking forward to that visit! Toy Story Land, better than I expected. Watching Epcot evolve, I'm fascinated by it. Brazil in World Showcase? Hopefully! What the minds of these Imagineers can up with, wow! Have you ridden Flight of Passage?

Bob is buying relevant IP and he is adding it to the parks at lightning speed. More and more IP is going to get added as the years go by. If that's what is going to draw the younger generations, that is what is going to happen. I'm sure Bob would like a redo with Harry Potter and JK Rowling, the young people in my life love Harry Potter. Simpson's in the parks one day? I'm not crazy about it, but it is what it is. There is a balance to appeasing the older and younger. And sometimes Disney adjusts, not right, not wrong, as with the case with putting merchandise in the Main Street Cinema in Disneyland. The older generations didn't like it and Disney pulled the merchandise out. But one day, unless it's given a Historical Landmark status, it will change, as it's usually empty in there and you don't see many young people in it. Why go stand in a room watching videos when they can do that anytime on their phones? But would Walt have bought and used the IP that Bob has? Who knows, but we know Walt was a buyer of IP and he used it in the parks. Bob is a buyer of IP and he uses it in the parks.

Change is happening under Bob. Dory and Nemo added to Small World. It's possible the younger generations like seeing these in Small World. Could Zootopia possibly be coming to Animal Kingdom? Could be, and I'll check it out if it does. Do you ever see more than a ten minute wait for Living with the Land? What if you added some IP to it? I bet you could get it up to a twenty minute wait easily. Paradise Pier becoming Pixar Pier? What is Bob thinking? We don't know, but if we don't like it or don't understand it, it's probably not meant for us.
 

Lad

Active Member
I waited 45 minutes for Living with the Land when I was last at Epcot in early March. The kids on the boat with me were very interested in the greenhouse items.

We shouldn’t dumb things down just so they will appeal to kids. That’s one thing Walt most certainly did not do.

“You’re dead if you aim only for kids.” - Walt Disney
 

Janir

Well-Known Member
It is fascinating to watch the IP debates on the forums. So much angst. And part of me gets it: your beloved parks are changing. Change is very hard for some people, yet change is inevitable.

I'm sure I've crossed over into the latter half of life. A few years ago, I saw a commercial that didn't make sense to me, a younger friend said, “I learned that if you see an ad that you don't get, it wasn't made for you.” And the lightbulb went off: a lot of the time, I'm not the targeted demographic.

I think of this when I read the forums: the parks are changing for the younger generations. So many can't handle this but, it's going to happen. And a lot of it has to do with IP. When I think of IP, I'm sure these will be fighting words for many, I see similarities in Walt and Bob. Let me explain:

A young Walt, an entrepreneur, wanted to be in control of his destiny. Animation in film was the future and he was interested in getting involved. He dabbled in the business for a few years until Oswald the Lucky Rabbit did well in 1927. His first somewhat successful IP. An argument could be made that was a take on Felix the Cat which had been doing well since it's debut in 1919. Universal leveraged Oswald away from Walt in 1928. Mortimer Mouse took his place, I mean Mickey (thank you Lillian)! Walt was not the most talented artist in the room, Ub Iwerks was. But Walt, an entrepreneur, thought outside the box, “let's add sound!” Steamboat Willy/Mickey Mouse took off.

“Let's make a movie!”, decided Walt. Did he use original IP? No, he adapted a story that some German guy wrote nearly a century before and we now have Snow White and the Seven Dwarves. Pinocchio, Bambi, Cinderella, original IP? No, no, no. All works by someone else. Winnie the Pooh and Mary Poppins? Purchased IP.

Moving on to Disneyland, Walt the entrepreneur, saw how bad amusement parks were run before Disneyland. “I'm going to make a family friendly one”, the man thought. And he did. Walt saw something and knew how to plus it!

Let's look at the lands: Fantasyland, we know they were based on the film's which were not his IP. Frontierland? What was the hot show of 1954? Davy Crockett, king of the wild frontier, which is based on the man named Davy Crockett. Original IP? I don't think so. Main Street? Kind of based on the small towns of Walt’s life. Tomorrowland and Adventureland? Little boys were fascinated with space and safaris. There wasn't an internet to watch videos of your favorite subject back then. Bring that to the kids. It was smart business.

Rides: Haunted Mansion? Haunted homes walkthroughs became a thing during the Great Depression, Walt plussed the concept. He plussed it very well. Pirates of the Caribbean? Yes. Obviously, pirates had been around, but putting animatronics, pirates and a boat ride together was brilliant! Small World? Sure. But as you can see, the majority of what Walt did was based on existing ideas or works.

Walt is awesome and I'm glad his dreams came true because my life is better because of his dreams. The man, in my opinion, should be considered one of the best entrepreneurs of all time. Walt, as an entrepreneur, set the mold for Steve Jobs, Elon Musk and others.

But, what about Bob? No, the man is not an entrepreneur. But looking at the numbers, I would say that Bob is a better businessman than Walt. The Walt Disney Company was close to collapse a couple times under Walt. After Walt’s passing. the company got itself into financial trouble and was close to hostile takeover. It is unlikely now that there will be a takeover of the company. which would be all for the legacy of my favorite entrepreneur. Financially, the Walt Disney Company is in the best shape its ever been.

What about Bob and the Parks? Bob has invested in the Parks. I might not be the biggest Guardians of the Galaxy fan, doesn't mean the new roller coaster in Epcot isn't going to be well done. I didn't like the idea of Tower of Terror in California Adventure transitioning to GotG, but after riding it, I thought it was a better ride than ToT. Doesn't mean that I still don't like the concept of ToT better, but it is what it is. Three new ships coming online, very exciting! Galaxy's Edge looks incredible, I'm looking forward to that visit! Toy Story Land, better than I expected. Watching Epcot evolve, I'm fascinated by it. Brazil in World Showcase? Hopefully! What the minds of these Imagineers can up with, wow! Have you ridden Flight of Passage?

Bob is buying relevant IP and he is adding it to the parks at lightning speed. More and more IP is going to get added as the years go by. If that's what is going to draw the younger generations, that is what is going to happen. I'm sure Bob would like a redo with Harry Potter and JK Rowling, the young people in my life love Harry Potter. Simpson's in the parks one day? I'm not crazy about it, but it is what it is. There is a balance to appeasing the older and younger. And sometimes Disney adjusts, not right, not wrong, as with the case with putting merchandise in the Main Street Cinema in Disneyland. The older generations didn't like it and Disney pulled the merchandise out. But one day, unless it's given a Historical Landmark status, it will change, as it's usually empty in there and you don't see many young people in it. Why go stand in a room watching videos when they can do that anytime on their phones? But would Walt have bought and used the IP that Bob has? Who knows, but we know Walt was a buyer of IP and he used it in the parks. Bob is a buyer of IP and he uses it in the parks.

Change is happening under Bob. Dory and Nemo added to Small World. It's possible the younger generations like seeing these in Small World. Could Zootopia possibly be coming to Animal Kingdom? Could be, and I'll check it out if it does. Do you ever see more than a ten minute wait for Living with the Land? What if you added some IP to it? I bet you could get it up to a twenty minute wait easily. Paradise Pier becoming Pixar Pier? What is Bob thinking? We don't know, but if we don't like it or don't understand it, it's probably not meant for us.
A well said and reasoned post.
Applause!
 

It Is What It Is

Active Member
Original Poster
Frequently.

It’s all about balance. And the Bobs have none.

I may be wrong. I'm curious what you feel the average wait time is? As I look at my app, now on a summers day, in the middle of the afternoon, the day before July 4th, I see a five minute wait. The last time I rode Living with the Land, my app said a ten minute wait and I didn't wait a minute, I walked right onto the boat. I experienced the under promise, over deliver strategy, “yay me, I just saved ten minutes”.

I know very little about Chapek, he comes off as a walking suit with very little personality, I hope I'm wrong on that. If he does have some personality in there, the Company needs to do a better job showcasing it. Kevin Mayer seems a little stiff, but I do see some personality in the interviews he has given, so at this point in time, if the top spot were to charge today KM would get my vote.

Iger, I like his personality. He comes off as someone who has made the most of the breaks that came his way. He may not be balanced in the Parks, but from a business standpoint, he is doing very well. Do people here think Pandora and Galaxy's Edge have been a waste of money?

Change is going to happen, I'm not advocating for or against IP being added to Living with the Land. My point is that if you did add IP to it, you would get more young people to ride it. Adding Incredibles to California Screamin, I don't think that it is a better ride, I like the old better. But my neighbors kid sure thought it was awesome. That means that change wasn't necessarily made for me. And that's okay.

(Having some fun here - As the great Walter White once said, “Say my name!”)

It Is What It Is

:)
 
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It Is What It Is

Active Member
Original Poster
Only what I see myself in September and October. Hardly peak.

I can try and find out if you like.

Thanks, no, not a big deal to me. September and October, when elementary and Junior high kids are going back to school, they are probably taking their field trips in Central Florida. As you mentioned, hardly peak, I'm sure Disney throws the schools a special deal. if I was a teacher taking kids to Disney, Epcot or AK would be my first choice and I'd sure take them on the educational rides before Frozen.

Did you like Flight of Passage? Can you get behind the queue changes (special effects) for Peter Pan? Is there any change that have been positive for you? Personally, I think IP in LwtL would suck, I was just making a point.
 
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"El Gran Magnifico"

Bring Me A Shrubbery
Premium Member
Currently no IP is proposed for LwtL.

The Rock and Emily Blunt as farmers. They have this Snowman they're trying to protect from Global Warming:

386215


Could work..
 

rk03221

Well-Known Member
I have to say I really like bob iger, compare him to Eisner and he’s way better. The company is still dealing and fixing eisners mistakes (Hong Kong, DCA, DHS, etc.). Iger isn’t a parks person but he’s improved them and making them much better. Im not a fan of incorporating the Simpsons into Disney and whatnot and I hope they don’t come to the parks, the simpsons lost relevance 20 years ago. As a former cm though I really wish the company would treat and pay cms better. I hope he has a good successor
 
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bUU

Well-Known Member
It is fascinating to watch the IP debates on the forums. So much angst.
That's the best word for it: The concerns aren't really stemming from a measured sense of what's important to the business, but rather from an unchecked prioritization of what is important to the critic, personally.

I'm sure I've crossed over into the latter half of life. A few years ago, I saw a commercial that didn't make sense to me, a younger friend said, “I learned that if you see an ad that you don't get, it wasn't made for you.” And the lightbulb went off: a lot of the time, I'm not the targeted demographic.
Yes - very true. I'm retiring later this week. The only advertising that seems to be aimed at me, these days, are for health plan supplements. :)
 

bUU

Well-Known Member
I know very little about Chapek, he comes off as a walking suit with very little personality
Huh? Say what you will about Chapek, but "walking suit" and "little personality" don't fit even a little. He comes across as more of an products-oriented guy rather than a portfolio-oriented guy like Iger (and Kevin Mayer).

Kevin Mayer seems a little stiff
So... he's a "walking suit". That's what really confuses me about the support for Mayer over Chapek. Mayer has always been about business strategy. If anyone really believes Mayer is going to be better for fans than Chapek, then I think they're missing some critical details.
 

eliza61nyc

Well-Known Member
That's the best word for it: The concerns aren't really stemming from a measured sense of what's important to the business, but rather from an unchecked prioritization of what is important to the critic, personally.

Yes - very true. I'm retiring later this week. The only advertising that seems to be aimed at me, these days, are for health plan supplements. :)

Congratulations bUU, God willing I'll be joining you in that magically time in about 7 months. lol, for some reason now I'm getting emails out the wazoo from AARP!!

Living with the land isn't one of our "must does", we primarily jump on it as an afterthought when we come off of soarin. that said we've never had a wait at all. lol it's the one ride left that we literally just walk up to. We generally go the last week in August, first weeks in September.
 

danlb_2000

Premium Member
It is fascinating to watch the IP debates on the forums. So much angst. And part of me gets it: your beloved parks are changing. Change is very hard for some people, yet change is inevitable.

I often see the "Change in inevitable" and "Change is hard" argument come up on these boards and it reminds be of a famous motivational book a former employ had all the employees read. It is called "Who Moved My Cheese" and is a parable that basically says that change is inevitable and that you should embrace and enjoy change. Initially I thought it was offering good advice, but then I realized that the book has a major problem, it at no point tells you that change isn't always good, and that some change should be resisted. The omission of these points is exactly why companies want their employee to read it because they want them to think they are powerless mice and should always just go with the flow and not resist the changes being imposed on them. So if we accept that not all change is good, the "change in inevitable" argument shouldn't even have a bearing on these discussions.

Personally, I don't have a problem with IP's in the park, what I have a problem with is bad use of IP. The parks need a balance, neither extreme is good, and at this point I think the pendulum has swung to far to the IP side, and when Imagineering is being forced to put IP's everywhere they are inevitably going to be backed into corners where they have to make less then ideal choices. We have all read the stories about Disney's incredible attention to detail, and about how carefully thought out all the park details are. Yes, a lot of the current IP moves are paying off short term, but if they start sacrificing to many of the Disney details, the long term damage will start to overwhelm those short term gains.
 

It Is What It Is

Active Member
Original Poster
I often see the "Change in inevitable" and "Change is hard" argument come up on these boards and it reminds be of a famous motivational book a former employ had all the employees read. It is called "Who Moved My Cheese" and is a parable that basically says that change is inevitable and that you should embrace and enjoy change. Initially I thought it was offering good advice, but then I realized that the book has a major problem, it at no point tells you that change isn't always good, and that some change should be resisted. The omission of these points is exactly why companies want their employee to read it because they want them to think they are powerless mice and should always just go with the flow and not resist the changes being imposed on them. So if we accept that not all change is good, the "change in inevitable" argument shouldn't even have a bearing on these discussions.
That was assigned reading twenty years or so here too. I agree. Change is inevitable and as you pointed, it's not always good. Sometimes there should be pushback on change. That's the tricky part. It is great when someone says they like or don't like something, opinions are wonderful. But, and help me flesh this out, I notice it happens to me with politics, it gets taken to a personal level. I see it here in the forums so often. And then it gets ugly, "eff Bob, they suck, your opinion sucks, blah, blah, blah", and I think to myself, 'well that's counter productive'.

I visit these boards because I am a fan of what Disney has represented in my life, its one of my happy places. Still is, and now it's like a hobby for me. I'm trying to learn as much as I can about the past and it is exciting to see what could be next. I'm like a little kid when marni1971, Jim Hill, or others drop a clue to what the future might hold. But here on the forums, I find myself wading through so much angst, and I feel a little sad and disappointed. Some of it I get, some of it I raise my eyebrows to, 'omg'.

I am empathetic to those who are getting priced out of the kingdom. I get those rants when I see them here. I can't imagine knowing I couldn't afford to go to my happy place. Some of Disney's pricing seems way over the top. Yet, I get that Disney has a problem too. It's the supply and demand thing, Disney is running out of room for the demand they have created. Their solution, price them out. To those rants, I hear you, I get it and I have more respect for those who say it with class than just typing out the middle finger.

Merchandise in Disneyland's Main Street Cinema: for me, it made me think of going to a dollar store. To those who said, "I think that is a horrible idea and this is why I think that way", I applaud you, I think you are the reason Disney management reversed course. To those who would go about the written middle finger approach to Bob or whomever, I ask, "does that really work? It seems counter productive and in my opinion sets you back from your goal". Isn't that what we see when we watch the nightly news regarding politics each day?
 

eliza61nyc

Well-Known Member
I often see the "Change in inevitable" and "Change is hard" argument come up on these boards and it reminds be of a famous motivational book a former employ had all the employees read. It is called "Who Moved My Cheese" and is a parable that basically says that change is inevitable and that you should embrace and enjoy change. Initially I thought it was offering good advice, but then I realized that the book has a major problem, it at no point tells you that change isn't always good, and that some change should be resisted. The omission of these points is exactly why companies want their employee to read it because they want them to think they are powerless mice and should always just go with the flow and not resist the changes being imposed on them. So if we accept that not all change is good, the "change in inevitable" argument shouldn't even have a bearing on these discussions.

Personally, I don't have a problem with IP's in the park, what I have a problem with is bad use of IP. The parks need a balance, neither extreme is good, and at this point I think the pendulum has swung to far to the IP side, and when Imagineering is being forced to put IP's everywhere they are inevitably going to be backed into corners where they have to make less then ideal choices. We have all read the stories about Disney's incredible attention to detail, and about how carefully thought out all the park details are. Yes, a lot of the current IP moves are paying off short term, but if they start sacrificing to many of the Disney details, the long term damage will start to overwhelm those short term gains.
No change isn't always good but it ALWAYS happens, very few things stay stagnant and survive. And even bad changes are useful to businesses. Lol anyone remember when coke introduced "New coke" 😁 how fast did they back peddle on that.
Now I can't tell you how long I've heard "in the long term" it will kill them. Definitely since 2010. I remember when they first started ramping up DVC building, outcry back then about how the mouseworld was going for rich folks.
So this is the "long term" from then.
 

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