TSI / Frontierland Addition

[NoChesterHester]

I think Whylightbulb is lying.

I honestly can't see Country Bear Jamboree being removed from WDW because country music is an institution in Florida. When you have a county ( Osceola, not quite Orange, but right next door) that gives students the day off on the first day that the Silver Spurs Rodeo comes to town, country is taken VERY seriously.

In addition, the theater is almost never more than half empty and the space that the CBJ occupies at WDW is way too small for something else to go in its place anyway.

I can see them adding an interactive Next-Gen-style queue to CBJ, but not a complete removal.

Granted, I was there last September so it may have been fixed since then, but the audio quality was deplorable. Several of the speakers didn't even seem to be working.

I love the attraction and hope the poor state of the show isn't indicative that it is on its last days.

 

[flavious27]

I think Whylightbulb is lying.

I honestly can't see Country Bear Jamboree being removed from WDW because country music is an institution in Florida. When you have a county ( Osceola, not quite Orange, but right next door) that gives students the day off on the first day that the Silver Spurs Rodeo comes to town, country is taken VERY seriously.

In addition, the theater is almost never more than half empty and the space that the CBJ occupies at WDW is way too small for something else to go in its place anyway.

I can see them adding an interactive Next-Gen-style queue to CBJ, but not a complete removal.

Agreed, the space is too small and it is one of those classic disney attractions.

 

[AEfx]

Agreed, the space is too small and it is one of those classic disney attractions.

...that they already killed in CA.

It's in horrible, awful shape. I've assumed the reason they've let it go to such neglect is because it's not terribly long for this world.

 

[AEfx]

To me, I don't really want too many more clones, at least from California. Maybe from the overseas parks where a lot of guests can't regularly go (Journey to the Center of the Earth, Ratatoulle, etc.). I would rather have quality, unique rides for WDW to give us incentive to go to California and the California fans reason to come to Florida.

The CA fans come to FL because it's larger and a resort, and we have three parks that (mostly) have rides they don't have (Disneyland visitors on average are more educated about the parks than the average WDW guest).

Bringing clones from CA, though, makes perfect sense and the "it discourages people" thing is just a "internet fan" myth.

The vast majority of people in the world don't really know the two apart, aside from one is in California and one is in Florida. And if I had a dime for every time someone asked me which was which, there would be 12 owners of those new luxury homes on property instead of 11.

Even of those that do, I have never met any "normal" person that knew that they DL/MK were not identical. Either that, or they never thought about it either way.

I'd be willing to bet 80-95% of the people that cross the gates of WDW have never, and probably will never, see Disneyland. Most people find it redundant to begin with, and wouldn't know what was a "clone" or not unless someone told them.

"Clones" are a good thing, because it means we get more stuff because the R&D is already done, or is shared. It means more attractions and many more people get to experience an attraction than would have otherwise.

The only ones who think this is even an issue at all are people on message boards like this - it's a topic to file under the same header as "OMG Dinosaur and Indy have identical tracks!!!" and various refillable mug "issues".

 

[RSoxNo1]

The CA fans come to FL because it's larger and a resort, and we have three parks that (mostly) have rides they don't have (Disneyland visitors on average are more educated about the parks than the average WDW guest).

Bringing clones from CA, though, makes perfect sense and the "it discourages people" thing is just a "internet fan" myth.

The vast majority of people in the world don't really know the two apart, aside from one is in California and one is in Florida. And if I had a dime for every time someone asked me which was which, there would be 12 owners of those new luxury homes on property instead of 11.

Even of those that do, I have never met any "normal" person that knew that they DL/MK were not identical. Either that, or they never thought about it either way.

I'd be willing to bet 80-95% of the people that cross the gates of WDW have never, and probably will never, see Disneyland. Most people find it redundant to begin with, and wouldn't know what was a "clone" or not unless someone told them.

"Clones" are a good thing, because it means we get more stuff because the R&D is already done, or is shared. It means more attractions and many more people get to experience an attraction than would have otherwise.

The only ones who think this is even an issue at all are people on message boards like this - it's a topic to file under the same header as "OMG Dinosaur and Indy have identical tracks!!!" and various refillable mug "issues".

There is quite a bit more overlap between the Disneyland Resort and Walt Disney World Resort. The two are definitely different but most marquee attractions have comparable attractions found in the other side of the country. The biggest exceptions are World Showcase and Africa and Asia in the Animal Kingdom.

 

[flynnibus]

if it weren't for EPCOT.. I don't think most west coast DL fans would come to WDW at all.

the attraction overlap is quite large... especially in the marque areas and most DL fans hate the multiple parks vs condensed version of DLR. They love DAK, but probably wouldn't make the trip just for DAK. They do not give the water parks a chance (thier loss). Many fans do it once to check it out, and then say 'been there, done that'.

I think there is plenty of space in the market for Disney to create more then one destination for people to visit in the states. And with relatively cheap and fast long distance transportation now (remember back in the days of early DL.. even the interstates were still new) there is less resistance to going to either coast for a traveling vacation.

clones are good for the reach of the car vacationers... but I think there is enough of a 'traveling' customer base Disney could end up marketing both parks to the same audience. But alas.. they still prefer to mostly keep WDW their prime vacation spot.. and DLR focused on west coasters.

 

[csm]

...that they already killed in CA.

It's in horrible, awful shape. I've assumed the reason they've let it go to such neglect is because it's not terribly long for this world.

You're missing an exceptionally important point - In Disneyland, Country Bear Jamboree had two identical theaters, plus a large holding room in between. It wasn't a single theater with a modest sized foyer as it is in Magic Kingdom. It made a lot more sense to spend the time and money to remove the Disneyland attraction because that WAS a good chunk of land that (clearly as has since been proven) was more than large enough for a new dark ride to take the place of.

Sure - Country Bear Jamboree may not be the best maintained at Magic Kingdom - but with respect, have you ridden any of the *other* major attractions in that park? I'd suggest of the five kingdom parks, Florida's is not known to be the highest quality of show maintenance. Everything is always kept completely safe, of course, but in terms of effects, figures, lighting, etc? Check out some of the other parks first if you want my advice.

 

[CountryBearFan]

You're missing an exceptionally important point - In Disneyland, Country Bear Jamboree had two identical theaters, plus a large holding room in between. It wasn't a single theater with a modest sized foyer as it is in Magic Kingdom. It made a lot more sense to spend the time and money to remove the Disneyland attraction because that WAS a good chunk of land that (clearly as has since been proven) was more than large enough for a new dark ride to take the place of.

Sure - Country Bear Jamboree may not be the best maintained at Magic Kingdom - but with respect, have you ridden any of the *other* major attractions in that park? I'd suggest of the five kingdom parks, Florida's is not known to be the highest quality of show maintenance. Everything is always kept completely safe, of course, but in terms of effects, figures, lighting, etc? Check out some of the other parks first if you want my advice.

My thoughts exactly.

As for the condition of the show, keep in mind that they have other huge projects to handle right now, such as the Fantasyland expansion and the Tiki Room rehab, so a lot of their time and money have been diverted towards those. And with the Tiki Room and Mickey's Toontown Fair closed, the MK's capacity is pretty lousy right now and they're trying not to close too many attractions for rehabs at once.

Once the Fantasyland and Tiki projects are finished, I bet they'll resume refurbishing all the other older attractions, including CBJ (which is not in its last days or ever will be, as some of us have already stated).

 

[csm]

My thoughts exactly.

As for the condition of the show, keep in mind that they have other huge projects to handle right now, such as the Fantasyland expansion and the Tiki Room rehab, so a lot of their time and money have been diverted towards those. And with the Tiki Room and Mickey's Toontown Fair closed, the MK's capacity is pretty lousy right now and they're trying not to close too many attractions for rehabs at once.

Once the Fantasyland and Tiki projects are finished, I bet they'll resume refurbishing all the other older attractions, including CBJ (which is not in its last days or ever will be, as some of us have already stated).

Look here's the thing - one cannot use current - admittedly ambitious - expansion plans as a reason for crunching other show quality throughout the park. The truth of the matter is it's been - to the rough date Fantasyland "opens" from it's expansion - exactly twenty years since the last major ground moving project in the Magic Kingdom. Twenty years is a LONG time that could have been spent fixing and maintaining and dare I say - plussing existing venues. They did not. I'm a HUGE fan of the Disney theme park realm. I've long said their product is simply superior, period - so please do not take this as a snarky internet fanboy bashing of "TDO" (god I hate when people around here throw that attack out.) I've been to Disneyland Resort Paris on two occasions. I've been to Tokyo Disney Resort. I've been to Disneyland Resort more times than I can count. The simple fact as has been exhibited by my personal travels is that Magic Kingdom has for years and years beyond that been the most stale, most stagnant, least prioritized venue for show-related upkeep. I'm not a fan of Tokyo Disneyland per-say because I do not really like the jumbled flow from land to land as exists there, but their attractions within are both superb and superior. If asked to rank the four "kingdoms" I have personally been to in terms of overall park flow and experience, Magic Kingdom and Tokyo Disneyland would sit pretty closely (note, this has NOTHING to do with the rides in the park and everything to do with the show and flow the park has alone) - and then Disneyland and Disneyland Paris would be close, with Disneyland taking a very clear lead. But the thing is, grouping "A" and grouping "B" are no where near eachother. In fact I'd dare say the grouping of Magic Kingdom/Tokyo Disneyland is as close to the grouping of Disneyland/Disneyland Paris for me as the physical Magic Kingdom theme park is in miles to the physical location of Tokyo Disneyland.

In short I am not attacking you by any means - and see that you agree with what I am saying; That's not what this is about at all. I just want to be clear that we really cannot use the "Well look at all the great stuff they're working on" excuse for letting classic, quality attractions age and collect dust. I've long said that Magic Kingdom has been allowed to coast on nothing more than it's name-brand recognition alone. Epcot, Disney's Hollywood Studios, Disney's Animal Kingdom - sure, you need to add things to those parks to get people coming over and over and over throughout the years. But people will come to Magic Kingdom. It doesn't matter if you never add a thing again. It's still the Magic Kingdom, it still has the brand that it has rightfully earned early on and that will keep people coming. I suggest to you that this fact and this fact alone is the reason why so many things are let to sit, why so little is freshened up over the years, and the true reason you do not see pluses like, for example but not limited to Haunted Mansion Holiday - or perhaps more pertinent to this discussion - the discontinuation of Country Bear Christmas Special.

 

[NoChesterHester]

^^ well said ^^

The short of it is there really haven't been enough major additions, period. It isn't like I'm one to complain either.

In my opinion we should see a major addition to each of the four parks at least every other year. Not one addition property wide every three to four years.

While they (Disney Parks) are the 800 pound gorilla their competition is on that sort of development schedule.

Don't tell me that "the market is mature." For the first time the TEA report indicated they had lost market share to their biggest competitor.

I am hopeful that all the buzz surrounding the potential D23 announcements is the giant cranking up the development machine now that the recession is looking like it is more and more in our past.

 

[csm]

^^ well said ^^

The short of it is there really haven't been enough major additions, period. It isn't like I'm one to complain either.

In my opinion we should see a major addition to each of the four parks at least every other year. Not one addition property wide every three to four years.

While they (Disney Parks) are the 800 pound gorilla their competition is on that sort of development schedule.

Don't tell me that "the market is mature." For the first time the TEA report indicated they had lost market share to their biggest competitor.

I am hopeful that all the buzz surrounding the potential D23 announcements is the giant cranking up the development machine now that the recession is looking like it is more and more in our past.

With experience in the "behind the scenes" world of attraction design (no, not for Disney) - I somewhat disagree with the every other year each logic. Would be nice - for sure - but here's the thing, it all loops back to the established brand coattails. Your Six Flags or Cedar Fair park has to do something like that to stay on the proverbial map, as it were - but no one is going to forget what Walt Disney World is. That being said - I DO agree with the every year or other year logic - but perhaps in this case, spread across the parks. If Magic Kingdom gets something big in 2012, then Studios gets something big in 2014, Epcot in 2016, etc, etc. (I am by no means prioritizing the order, just used here for the sake of arguement.) WDW parks are in a unique situation were although they are very much four separate entities, they are almost viewed externally as one large lump sum. Not saying I agree or disagree with it, but it is what it is. If you get a major new ride in Epcot, people are going to travel to see it, and while they are here, they are not going to *only* visit Epcot. See what I mean? If you already drew the people to the property, let's spread that draw over the years instead of firing wildly in one year at all four parks and then nothing for five years to come after that.

I also must remind you that Universal- although they are hot right now thanks to Harry Potter - has absolutely not followed that philosophy. Let's take a look:

1999- IOA opens
2000- Flying Unicorn/Storm Force added as knee-jerk reaction to major lack of family rides
...

...

...

2010 - Wizarding World of Harry Potter opens



Now sure, they opened the Seuss Sky Trolley somewhere in between there, but I majorly, majorly argue disqualification there because it was intended to open on day one in 1999 and failed utterly. It's as new of a ride for the park as Test Track was in 1999. Sure, it was the big new ride for Epcot that year, but guess what? It was supposed to be two years earlier, and that's when the capital was really poured in. Granted it took a lot - in both cases - to finally get it to opening day, so it's not to say that the only penny left the purse in the original year, but I think you still see the point.

Now I've said it before, the Potter expansion was - I'd say - the biggest thing to happen to the amusement industry in years. Perhaps dating all the way back to the innovations brought to us in 1995 for Indiana Jones Adventure: Temple of the Forbidden Eye or 1994 for The Twilight Zone Tower of Terror. Harry Potter and the Forbidden Journey was a big deal, and the land - as small as it is - as limited as it is - is stunning. Great addition. Kudos. Standing Ovation.

What happened to the ten years in between up until then? They did even LESS to maintain IOA in that ten years as Magic Kingdom did in the twenty between Splash Mountain and Fantasyland. It's certainly not a case of other parks adding more often - though I would argue the fact and agree with you on this - Universal (and/or SeaWorld, Busch Gardens) are much more in a position of giving your strategy more consideration. Once every other year is NOT a bad idea for them when your direct competition IS that 800 pound gorilla who - by the way - has basically a total monopoly on visiting travelers from the second you step onto THEIR free bus at the airport for a direct drive to a resort where many people do not even have their own means of transport after that.

 

[aladdin2007]

Agreed, the space is too small and it is one of those classic disney attractions.

If they can remove snow white for meet n greets, they can do the same with country bears. It would be awful if they did that, but dont put it past them.

 

[flavious27]

If they can remove snow white for meet n greets, they can do the same with country bears. It would be awful if they did that, but dont put it past them.

Don't mention m&g in that area, they will just put something pirates in there then.

 

[flynnibus]

As for the condition of the show, keep in mind that they have other huge projects to handle right now, such as the Fantasyland expansion and the Tiki Room rehab, so a lot of their time and money have been diverted towards those. And with the Tiki Room and Mickey's Toontown Fair closed, the MK's capacity is pretty lousy right now and they're trying not to close too many attractions for rehabs at once.

two flaws in this excuse

1 - this problem existed well before FLE started
2 - your maintenance people aren't the ones who build new construction

new construction and design is completely different groups from operations and maintenance.

 

[disneyinsider1]

i think a Frontierland addition would be great!
Ideas:

Grizzly Bear Run coaster.
A smaller Tom Sawyer Island
A haunted mine attraction?
A new character meal restaurant with Toy Story characters.
A new dinner show.

 

[CountryBearFan]

If they can remove snow white for meet n greets, they can do the same with country bears. It would be awful if they did that, but dont put it past them.

Sorry, bud. Can't see that happening.

Please don't jump to conclusions, thank you.

 

[aladdin2007]

Sorry, bud. Can't see that happening.

Please don't jump to conclusions, thank you.

Not jumping to any conclusions, just discussing. I didnt say they were doing that or even thinking about it, but its not out of the question. I def dont want it to ever happen.

 

[CountryBearFan]

Not jumping to any conclusions, just discussing. I didnt say they were doing that or even thinking about it, but its not out of the question. I def dont want it to ever happen.

I still think it's out of the question, though, for the reasons I mentioned in an earlier post.

 

[flavious27]

i think a Frontierland addition would be great!
Ideas:

Grizzly Bear Run coaster.
A smaller Tom Sawyer Island
A haunted mine attraction?
A new character meal restaurant with Toy Story characters.
A new dinner show.

Well a dinner show can be added back to diamond horseshoe. A haunted mine attraction would be too similar to big thunder mountain. They could add a toy story restaurant on the north side of the splash mountain queue.