Toy Story Land expansion announced for Disney's Hollywood Studios

[SirLink]

They didn't bid out the design process and that (WDI) is the money pit.

When the budget for TSL exceeds Diagon Alley's by over a hundred million dollars, there is a 'uge problem.

Couldn't of said it better myself...

 

[lazyboy97o]

Which is a problem in itself this should be costing no more than $350million. Not $400-450 million. Especially seen as the whole point of WDI adding TSL was that it was a) cheap b) quick to build c) address the DHS laden height requirement attractions. Its has already failed its two main goals before being built.

Also addendum to one of your later posts - they are looking at budgets across the board to preciously stop another $1billion land from happening again.

Even $350 million is ridiculous. Two flat rides and a roller coaster (before cstomizatio) should be something like a $35 million investment.

 

[lazyboy97o]

I'm not trying to be difficult, but, under what standards are you able to determine how much a theme park attractions should cost. Are you in the business? Have you been involved with building attractions and therefore know what a reasonable price is to do them?

Normally, and I don't pretend to know how Disney does this, when a project is being started, bid sheets are sent out to contractors, completely detailed with itemized needs, from earth work to rough construction to fine details. The qualified contractors are notified of the bid and do quotes to the requesting company. Each bid from each contractor is opened, usually in public to keep it honest, and the LOWEST bid is awarded as long as they qualify to do the work.

If a contractor qualifies and has the low bid, they get the job. In the event that a bid is lower, but, the bidder is not qualified then it can get awarded to the next lowest bid. In other words Disney cannot always control what the cost is. What they can do is cancel the project and start over, but, then that much time has been wasted and the process starts over. Since for most of Disney's projects the government cannot insist that bids have to be asked for since it is private money, however, stockholders may object to uncontrolled spending.

Bid documents are not created at the start of the design process.

 

[SirLink]

Even $350 million is ridiculous. Two flat rides and a roller coaster (before cstomizatio) should be something like a $35 million investment.

Oh indeed - but it would never cost $35 million - never.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Oh indeed - but it would never cost $35 million - never.

And that is fine since that would just be the stock rides, but breaking $100 should be out of line.

 

[Disneyhead'71]

Even $350 million is ridiculous. Two flat rides and a roller coaster (before cstomizatio) should be something like a $35 million investment.

To be fair, the launched family coaster, off the shelf is about $30 million. Add in the trench rock work, (can we all agree that we don't really need Zsolt Hormay on this project), and the mechanical set pieces strewn throughout the course, and I can see this being a $100MM attraction. It will cost Disney twice that. And take twice as long to get built.

To put things in perspective. The BLT closed 18 months ago and TSL was announced 13 months after that in Aug. 2015, and yet 5 months after the announcement no signs of demolition. Universal announced Fast & Furious in Aug. Closed Disaster! in Sept. and 5 months later...
http://twitter.com/GrillingWithGun/status/690226123641360384/photo/1

 

[Goofyernmost]

Bid documents are not created at the start of the design process.

I know that, but, architectural plans are costed out, based on their own research and after they have finished, costed and itemized the plans, they then go out to bids. They do a ballpark of what they expect it to cost, but, that doesn't mean that the contractors agree with them. Many things are factored in like the PITA factor which, I would guess, is quite high with a Disney project and the bids come out considerably higher then what Disney planned. However, if they want it built they have to go with what contractors are willing to accept for the project.

I'm sure it didn't start out that way. When starting out, people fell all over themselves to get a foot in the door, however, with the competition being what it is in "the swamps" I'm fairly sure that there are not many contractors of that sort that are desperate for work.

 

[ToTBellHop]

To be fair, the launched family coaster, off the shelf is about $30 million. Add in the trench rock work, (can we all agree that we don't really need Zsolt Hormay on this project), and the mechanical set pieces strewn throughout the course, and I can see this being a $100MM attraction. It will cost Disney twice that. And take twice as long to get built.

To put things in perspective. The BLT closed 18 months ago and TSL was announced 13 months after that in Aug. 2015, and yet 5 months after the announcement no signs of demolition. Universal announced Fast & Furious in Aug. Closed Disaster! in Sept. and 5 months later...
http://twitter.com/GrillingWithGun/status/690226123641360384/photo/1

It is absolutely costing too much. Realistically, with all of the additional thematic work for the land (across 11 acres!), $250m would be far more reasonable. But it will cost double that.

I do agree with Martin that it is absurd to use all of this space for a flat and a coaster. They need to learn to use land more efficiently.

 

[HauntedMansionFLA]

It is absolutely costing too much. Realistically, with all of the additional thematic work for the land (across 11 acres!), $250m would be far more reasonable. But it will cost double that.

I do agree with Martin that it is absurd to use all of this space for a flat and a coaster. They need to learn to use land more efficiently.

Would WDW been better off with clones of Toy Story lands that Disney built overseas?

 

[Fox&Hound]

This. My concern with the expansion plans for DHS is that they are light on rides, especially with minimal if any all ages/low intensity rides on the docket. The rides for Star Wars sound reasonable, but with an expansion themed to Toy Story, I'm disappointed that there isn't a bunch of rides for that land and some of them without height restrictions. Adding just two rides in that land is pretty light when the park only has 5 rides currently; TSL should be adding at least 3 or 4 rides to help to fill out the number of stuff for the park.

Interesting point. With everyone talking about a possible Monsters Inc land as a third phase, if it does happen, I wonder if they would go in a ride and go seek or DCA clone direction instead of the fabled door coaster people are excited about (myself included). DHS already has ToT, RnRc, and will get a family coaster with Toy Story land, and two more intense rides (or so it seems) with SW land. They may add a family friendly SW ride too but it does seem like thrills will be covered. Monsters, or whatever ends up in that back tram area, could be their answer for rides with no height limit.

 

[dreamscometrue]

They didn't bid out the design process and that (WDI) is the money pit.

It'll be interesting to see what Bob Weis does. He was put in charge for a reason.

 

[doctornick]

Interesting point. With everyone talking about a possible Monsters Inc land as a third phase, if it does happen, I wonder if they would go in a ride and go seek or DCA clone direction instead of the fabled door coaster people are excited about (myself included). DHS already has ToT, RnRc, and will get a family coaster with Toy Story land, and two more intense rides (or so it seems) with SW land. They may add a family friendly SW ride too but it does seem like thrills will be covered. Monsters, or whatever ends up in that back tram area, could be their answer for rides with no height limit.

I was actually thinking about this and if Monstropolis is indeed the theme for Phase 3, I definitely think it seems something like Ride and Seek far more than the door coaster. Whatever goes in for Phase 3 needs to have multiple rides to fill out the park and some would need to be all ages stuff.

I wonder if they really are planning to use all of Catastrophe Canyon/LMA/SoA (minus the Muppets) for a single IP -- I'd much rather see multiple IPs in that large area. Maybe they are also bring a ride like Ratouille from France, which would be perfect for what DHS needs as a high quality ride that is all ages, and have a mini-area for that.

 

[ToTBellHop]

Would WDW been better off with clones of Toy Story lands that Disney built overseas?

Oh goodness no. Those rides are dreadful and have awful capacity. These rides are much more appropriate for a park that sees 8 or 9 million people each year (surely 10+ when SWL opens).

 

[lazyboy97o]

To be fair, the launched family coaster, off the shelf is about $30 million.

Launched coasters can easily come in under $30 million. Thunderbird, a good sized B&M at HolidayWorld, and Lightning Rod, the world's first launched wood coaster at Dollywood, are both $22 million projects. A small Intamin should not be 50% more.

I know that, but, architectural plans are costed out, based on their own research and after they have finished, costed and itemized the plans, they then go out to bids. They do a ballpark of what they expect it to cost, but, that doesn't mean that the contractors agree with them. Many things are factored in like the PITA factor which, I would guess, is quite high with a Disney project and the bids come out considerably higher then what Disney planned. However, if they want it built they have to go with what contractors are willing to accept for the project.

I'm sure it didn't start out that way. When starting out, people fell all over themselves to get a foot in the door, however, with the competition being what it is in "the swamps" I'm fairly sure that there are not many contractors of that sort that are desperate for work.

You're still putting the cart before the horse. In a bid project the budget is first, bidding is near the end.

 

[HauntedMansionFLA]

Oh goodness no. Those rides are dreadful and have awful capacity. These rides are much more appropriate for a park that sees 8 or 9 million people each year (surely 10+ when SWL opens).

Okay, thanks for the information. I hear people on here complaining about the plans for this land and just wanted to try and compare the two different lands.

 

[Goofyernmost]

Launched coasters can easily come in under $30 million. Thunderbird, a good sized B&M at HolidayWorld, and Lightning Rod, the world's first launched wood coaster at Dollywood, are both $22 million projects.


You're still putting the cart before the horse. In a bid project the budget is first, bidding is near the end.

I believe I said it was near the end, in fact, the last thing before actual construction starts. Budget is what they want to spend on something not what they may have to spend on it. A lot of complaints come from this forum about how Disney cuts things out of the plans to save money. Know why? Because what they budgeted is not possible to achieve so in order to meet the budget they cut things out to save money and not exceed what was green lite. They can control, on paper, what they think they should spend, but, are at the mercy of contractors that may have a different idea about what it is worth for them to do. Disney can pre-calculate the cost of a bolt and be pretty close, but, they cannot control what an outside source wants to make for profit. Sometimes if they want to get it done, they have no choice but to spend it. On top of that, the bidders know how deep Disney's pockets can be and if the competition is light... they can ask for and get more.

That's what bidding is all about. Disney can put down what they want to spend on a project. That doesn't necessarily translate into it will get done for that amount.

 

[lazyboy97o]

I believe I said it was near the end, in fact, the last thing before actual construction starts. Budget is what they want to spend on something not what they may have to spend on it. A lot of complaints come from this forum about how Disney cuts things out of the plans to save money. Know why? Because what they budgeted is not possible to achieve so in order to meet the budget they cut things out to save money and not exceed what was green lite. They can control, on paper, what they think they should spend, but, are at the mercy of contractors that may have a different idea about what it is worth for them to do. Disney can pre-calculate the cost of a bolt and be pretty close, but, they cannot control what an outside source wants to make for profit. Sometimes if they want to get it done, they have no choice but to spend it. On top of that, the bidders know how deep Disney's pockets can be and if the competition is light... they can ask for and get more.

That's what bidding is all about. Disney can put down what they want to spend on a project. That doesn't necessarily translate into it will get done for that amount.

Bidding is not just wild numbers with the hope that maybe somebody will get lucky. The whole point the process is competition, lower prices. Even specialized work does not result in 300% price differences. Most of the contractors that Disney hires also work for equally deep pocketed Universal.

That though is all based around the thought that Disney is bidding out work and not fast-tracking, which is more common. Disney's cost issues are internal, not external.

 

[Goofyernmost]

Launched coasters can easily come in under $30 million. Thunderbird, a good sized B&M at HolidayWorld, and Lightning Rod, the world's first launched wood coaster at Dollywood, are both $22 million projects. A small Intamin should not be 50% more.


You're still putting the cart before the horse. In a bid project the budget is first, bidding is near the end.

I believe I said that it comes toward the end. In fact both budget and bidding are the last two things to happen before construction starts. First an idea (concept) is presented to the powers that be, they approve the concept and authorize the imagineers to come up with detailed plans. During that process parts of the project are itemized and using the same method that contractors do, come up with what they believe it will cost to do. That goes back to the powers and they would then, hopefully, approve the plans and budget that projected amount toward the project. Then it goes to Bid. Now this is where it gets sidetracked. Disney can figure out what it will cost for a bolt, let's say, and that is what is budgeted. They will probably be pretty close in that number. What they cannot control, however, is what the contractor wants to make for profit on this project. That is exactly where the budget gets increased or parts of the project are cut out to save costs.

Time is a major factor here as well. The longer Disney takes to put a shovel in the ground the more expensive it might get just by the fact that inflation (and greed) can elevate it substantially. We all know how long Disney takes to actually get things rolling, so that is one part of it. So now they have an actual plan and a budget and have started to construct. Wouldn't you know it some executive stops by and says, "I don't like that done that way" so change orders have to be submitted which is over and above the original bid. Then something was planned incorrectly by engineering causing a redo of certain things and low and behold... another change order and additional costs. There are a lot of factors involved with any construction job and those factors usually cost extra money. The more accurate the plans and the less outside interference can keep costs down, but, that's just black and white logic. Many things really need additional money to make it an attraction that would be considered, by this discerning group at least, to be a top notch Disney worthy attraction.

 

[lazyboy97o]

I believe I said that it comes toward the end. In fact both budget and bidding are the last two things to happen before construction starts. First an idea (concept) is presented to the powers that be, they approve the concept and authorize the imagineers to come up with detailed plans. During that process parts of the project are itemized and using the same method that contractors do, come up with what they believe it will cost to do. That goes back to the powers and they would then, hopefully, approve the plans and budget that projected amount toward the project. Then it goes to Bid. Now this is where it gets sidetracked. Disney can figure out what it will cost for a bolt, let's say, and that is what is budgeted. They will probably be pretty close in that number. What they cannot control, however, is what the contractor wants to make for profit on this project. That is exactly where the budget gets increased or parts of the project are cut out to save costs.

Time is a major factor here as well. The longer Disney takes to put a shovel in the ground the more expensive it might get just by the fact that inflation (and greed) can elevate it substantially. We all know how long Disney takes to actually get things rolling, so that is one part of it. So now they have an actual plan and a budget and have started to construct. Wouldn't you know it some executive stops by and says, "I don't like that done that way" so change orders have to be submitted which is over and above the original bid. Then something was planned incorrectly by engineering causing a redo of certain things and low and behold... another change order and additional costs. There are a lot of factors involved with any construction job and those factors usually cost extra money. The more accurate the plans and the less outside interference can keep costs down, but, that's just black and white logic. Many things really need additional money to make it an attraction that would be considered, by this discerning group at least, to be a top notch Disney worthy attraction.

No, the process is much longer and more detailed that you repeatedly make it out to be. It is not your black and white view of concept and plans. Estimates are refined and become more detailed with each phase you always ignore. No cost estimator is going to stay employed by repeatedly and consistently getting projects estimated at less than half of their final cost. You also keep ignoring that there are industry norms on profit margin and even contingencies for cost overruns. It is not just a surprise like you keep insisting.

 

[Mike S]

It is absolutely costing too much. Realistically, with all of the additional thematic work for the land (across 11 acres!), $250m would be far more reasonable. But it will cost double that.

I do agree with Martin that it is absurd to use all of this space for a flat and a coaster. They need to learn to use land more efficiently.

Or relearn considering this is the same company that owns and operates Disneyland.