Tiana's Bayou Adventure: Disneyland Watch & Discussion

[PiratesMansion]

Ridership
Eliciting emotion/ stronger memories through thrills, getting wet and the great soundtrack
Scale
Time

None of the other rides listed have ALL of these.

Is there any way to disprove Mine Train thru Nature's Wonderland for this same metric other than "well, none of us were around to experience it"? Assuming that we are able to eliminate the highly-Splash specific "getting wet" portion of this metric.

It just seems to me like a lot of these arguments are based on emotion and only hold up to scrutiny if people are able to make flimsy and arbitrary arguments that have no purpose but to exclude other attractions that might otherwise fit the same bill.

 

[_caleb]

I touched on most of those. All less than 30.

None had the ridership Splash Mt still has 30 years plus later.

This is why it is fact.

But you’re the one who says the longevity of the attraction is part of evaluating its “belovedness.” The age of an attraction is a fact. the ridership is a fact. But how loved a ride is? That’s not a fact, it’s…. I don’t know—an inference? An assumption? A supposition? A projection?

Again, Disney is not closing/removing Splash Mountain, they’re retheming it. This is why the discussion always veers into the social aspects of the subject–because people are who are upset about the retheme of Splash to Tiana are upset about losing the theme, not about losing the ride itself.

 

[mickEblu]

Is there any way to disprove Mine Train thru Nature's Wonderland for this same metric other than "well, none of us were around to experience it"? Assuming that we are able to eliminate the highly-Splash specific "getting wet" portion of this metric.

It just seems to me like a lot of these arguments are based on emotion and only hold up to scrutiny if people are able to make flimsy and arbitrary arguments that have no purpose but to exclude other attractions that might otherwise fit the same bill.

Well we know it wasn’t around as long or ridden by nearly as many people. We know it wasn’t in three parks. We know it didn’t have Splash’s soundtrack or have any thrills.

That’s without getting into Splash being a more well rounded experience which of course is more subjective.

I threw the wet part in with the music / thrills as things that elicit stronger emotions and memories. I should have said water though.

 

[PiratesMansion]

Tower of Terror was also closed for reasons that had nothing to do with its popularity, so there goes the argument that Splash's closure is unprecedented in that regard.

You could even make the argument, if you so desired, that both TOT and Splash were about swapping out less relevant IP for more relevant/desireable IP from the company's perspective.

None of us will be able to prove, precisely, which ride had the most ridership. A lot of those defunct Epcot attractions were people eaters. Splash at Disneyland can do 1500 an hour-not bad but hardly Pirates either. If you don't have the ridership numbers at your fingertips (which none of us do), I think this is a weird metric to fixate on. Splash, a ride with an obvious thrill element that cannot be hidden away, may have lower ridership for that very reason. That's why a lot of parks-even parks that market themselves on thrill rides and coasters-often have their train ride as one their most highly ridden attractions. This ridership piece is probably bunk because there are likely many attractions at the park RIGHT NOW that receive far larger numbers of riders annually. So who cares about this ridership metric? It's irrelevant.

No one has yet to say or provide any evidence that definitively proves that this is the biggest ride closure of all time other than very subjective feelings.

It's one thing to say it's the biggest closure of your lifetime or to you personally, but I'm not going to get on board with biggest closure definitively, ever. Sorry not sorry.

 

[SuddenStorm]

Is there any way to disprove Mine Train thru Nature's Wonderland for this same metric other than "well, none of us were around to experience it"? Assuming that we are able to eliminate the highly-Splash specific "getting wet" portion of this metric.

It just seems to me like a lot of these arguments are based on emotion and only hold up to scrutiny if people are able to make flimsy and arbitrary arguments that have no purpose but to exclude other attractions that might otherwise fit the same bill.

One of the reasons cited for Mine Train's closure by Baxter in an interview is the declining ridership.

 

[Rich T]

I still stick to the fact that Disney parks have never closed an attraction as popular and long lasting as splash before.

It’s not closing. It’s being rethemed and renamed. The flume experience will remain exactly the same. Most of the GP lined up for Splash for the big drop and to get wet. The majority of folks weren’t there to see malfunctioning robot animals.

Five years after the Tiana version opens, I wouldn’t be surprised if Disney just renames it Splash Mountain again, and generations going forward will love it and never be aware that it used to be based on a movie Disney’s now ashamed of.

 

[celluloid]

But you’re the one who says the longevity of the attraction is part of evaluating its “belovedness.” The age of an attraction is a fact. the ridership is a fact. But how loved a ride is? That’s not a fact, it’s…

Again, Disney is not closing/removing Splash Mountain, they’re retheming it. This is why the discussion always veers into the social aspects of the subject–because people are who are upset about the retheme of Splash to Tiana are upset about losing the theme, not about losing the ride itself.

Let's address both parts.
How would you address fondness? Ridership and the fact that I can say Splash Mountain to someone in the Midwest and they are just as likely to know it is a theme park ride not unlike if I said Space Mountain or Haunted Mansion vs if I said Mine Train Thru Nature's Wonderland. Not to mention it has existed on both coasts in the most visited theme parks for over three decades. To claim it is not popular is silly. If you don't like the word fondness that is fine. But the fact remains. No ride has ever had such popularity for so long has ever closed at a Disney Theme Park.

I think fans of Disney and some general public are far.more.cincerned about some of Disney's reputation on recent efforts.

To the second part. The theme changing but same ride dynamic is silly when it comes to theme parks.claiming the theme and story are just as an important and typically larger budgeted and marketed part of the experience. So that is just a silly debate. Great, you keep the same thrill. But look to Test Track, you consider that the same attraction as the original?
.
This is why it does not need to get social which you keep referencing and then saying we should not. Just quit referencing it at all because it is null to my factual points that this is a first for Disney Parks.


So many here are targeting miscelnious things. Ok, so to you and to many it will still be a physical thrill log flume, as would Woody's Round Up Coaster if Big Thunder was rethemed.

I addressed your points to take time to respond to your thoughts.

I am done pointing all that out as it is subjective.

Now the objective.
The fact remains: No attraction with the this strong of ridership and its amount of decades has ever closed at a Disney Park before. It is not opinion and thoughts and hopes for the rethemed are irrelevant to it.

 

[BuzzedPotatoHead89]

The Great Movie Ride was probably the thesis statement for Disney/MGM studios and its existence. The original Peoplemover and Skyway both defined Tomorrowland ‘67 and the elimination of their presence greatly diminished the kinetic energy of Tomorrowland.

While I agree Splash Mountain is a top attraction for several reasons including the iconic drop (that will remain untouched) its imprint on the history of the castle parks is likely not comparable to Main Street, the castle, the opening day rides, or to most of the original or World’s Fair attractions and their NOS offshoots that defined the entire industry.

 

[MisterPenguin]

I never knew 30 years was the milestone by which an IP has a right to never be rethemed!!

 

[Californian Elitist]

Ridership
Eliciting emotion/ stronger memories through thrills, getting wet and the great soundtrack
Scale
Time

None of the other rides listed have ALL of these.

…

Can you somehow prove that Splash Mountain is more loved than all the rides on that list? The second thing on this list cannot be used to measure something like this.

How can you prove that the fans alive during the time of the rides mentioned didn’t love them as much as people love Splash Mountain today?

 

[celluloid]

I never knew 30 years was the milestone by which an IP has a right to never be rethemed!!

Who said it has no right to?
Why are you attacking everything?

30 years is the milestone for any Disney ride to be rethemed as it has never happened before.
It is fact.

 

[PiratesMansion]

So now the "Splash closure is the biggest ever" crowd is moving the goal posts to say that Splash is bigger because there are multiple versions around the country and around the world to make it seem like the biggest deal? When previously we were pretty much only talking about Splash in the context of this specific resort? Got it. Noted.

Again, arbitrary and flimsy.

Well we know it wasn’t around as long or ridden by nearly as many people. We know it wasn’t in three parks. We know it didn’t have Splash’s soundtrack or have any thrills.

That’s without getting into Splash being a more well rounded experience which of course is more subjective.

Thrills is irrelevant in this case. IASW, HM, and POTC are not about thrills but are just as iconic as Splash, if not more so. I'm not going to hold it against a ride that it didn't have a soundtrack that would have only made sense on the ride it was a part of.

Can we say for sure that it wasn't ridden by as many people? Splash has a very obvious huge drop as part of it. That will naturally deter many people from riding. Splash only gets 1500 people an hour, which isn't that great. We don't have the data in front of us, so we can't say for sure unless someone has said numbers and shares it with us.

One of the reasons cited for Min Train's closure by Baxter in an interview is the declining ridership.

At the time they closed it, sure. But it's almost certain that it got plenty of ridership simply because it was a train ride vs. a thrill ride. A train ride is always going to be more accessible than a ride with a big, obvious drop on it.

There were also related factors that would have given the park an incentive to get rid of the Mine Train-lower operational costs (don't need a CM per vehicle), it reportedly lost a lot of life when it lost the Mules in the same area (again-gotta save those CM expenses!), and it cut off Fantasyland from Frontierland. All of which probably made it very attractive for the park to remove it and just pin it on one factor that the public can understand. I don't think it's so simple as to say that those definitively weren't factors in the case of that ride.

The Great Movie Ride was probably the thesis statement for Disney/MGM studios and its existence. The original Peoplemover and Skyway both defined Tomorrowland ‘67 and the elimination of their presence greatly diminished the kinetic energy of Tomorrowland.

While I agree Splash Mountain is a top attraction for several reasons including the iconic drop (that will remain untouched) its imprint on the history of the castle parks is likely not comparable to Main Street, the castle, the opening day rides, or to most of the original or World’s Fair attractions and their NOS offshoots that defined the entire industry.

YES!

Splash Mountain is not so integral either to Disneyland (or MK or TDL) so as to represent the park's thesis statement. I didn't care for GMR, but losing it was undoubtedly a much bigger deal for DHS and its identity than Splash is to any of the parks it's part of. See also: numerous EPCOT Center attractions.

Again, so many of these arguments for Splash are based on arbitrary factors that only hold up to scrutiny if you believe that Splash Mountain is a uniquely special, unimpeachable masterpiece of an attraction that nothing else has ever, and nothing else can ever, equal.

 

[mickEblu]

…

Can you somehow prove that Splash Mountain is more loved than all the rides on that list? The second thing on this list cannot be used to measure something like this.

How can you prove that the fans alive during the time of the rides mentioned didn’t love them as much as people love Splash Mountain today?

So then you agree the other three things I listed can be used to measure?

What kind of proof do you want? I used to gamble on sports so how about let’s say that the things I listed would make it the heavy favorite that it is the most beloved attraction to ever close or be rethemed.

 

[celluloid]

All that subjective messy stuff...blah blah. At the end of the day it is your thought and taste for the attraction. Every time something is used to measure some trash it, so it is a waste of time.





You know, Disney never gave a 2 and a half year notice for a ride's rethemed before? More evidence from the company. But there is some reason against that being evident too.

Fact is fact though, which was meant to be an interesting observation that it is the longest operating Disney attraction to ever be rethemed that apparently made people get really mad and factitious.

 

[mickEblu]

So now the "Splash closure is the biggest ever" crowd is moving the goal posts to say that Splash is bigger because there are multiple versions around the country and around the world to make it seem like the biggest deal? When previously we were pretty much only talking about Splash in the context of this specific resort? Got it. Noted.

Again, arbitrary and flimsy.


Thrills is irrelevant in this case. IASW, HM, and POTC are not about thrills but are just as iconic as Splash, if not more so. I'm not going to hold it against a ride that it didn't have a soundtrack that would have only made sense on the ride it was a part of.

Can we say for sure that it wasn't ridden by as many people? Splash has a very obvious huge drop as part of it. That will naturally deter many people from riding. Splash only gets 1500 people an hour, which isn't that great. We don't have the data in front of us, so we can't say for sure unless someone has said numbers and shares it with us.


At the time they closed it, sure. But it's almost certain that it got plenty of ridership simply because it was a train ride vs. a thrill ride. A train ride is always going to be more accessible than a ride with a big, obvious drop on it.

There were also related factors that would have given the park an incentive to get rid of the Mine Train-lower operational costs (don't need a CM per vehicle), it reportedly lost a lot of life when it lost the Mules in the same area (again-gotta save those CM expenses!), and it cut off Fantasyland from Frontierland. All of which probably made it very attractive for the park to remove it and just pin it on one factor that the public can understand. I don't think it's so simple as to say that those definitively weren't factors in the case of that ride.


YES!

Splash Mountain is not so integral either to Disneyland (or MK or TDL) so as to represent the park's thesis statement. I didn't care for GMR, but losing it was undoubtedly a much bigger deal for DHS and its identity than Splash is to any of the parks it's part of. See also: numerous EPCOT Center attractions.

Again, so many of these arguments for Splash are based on arbitrary factors that only hold up to scrutiny if you believe that Splash Mountain is a uniquely special, unimpeachable masterpiece of an attraction that nothing else has ever, and nothing else can ever, equal.

Calm down bro

 

[Californian Elitist]

Matterhorn has never been replicated elsewhere. Does this somehow effect its popularity?

 

[celluloid]

Matterhorn has never been replicated elsewhere. Does this somehow effect its popularity?

Yes. Matterhorn is incredibly popular as a Disneyland classic, but you are kidding yourself if you think it is known across the nation or world as well as mentioning the names Space, Thunder or Splash Mountain.

 

[mickEblu]

So now the "Splash closure is the biggest ever" crowd is moving the goal posts to say that Splash is bigger because there are multiple versions around the country and around the world to make it seem like the biggest deal? When previously we were pretty much only talking about Splash in the context of this specific resort? Got it. Noted.

Again, arbitrary and flimsy.


Thrills is irrelevant in this case. IASW, HM, and POTC are not about thrills but are just as iconic as Splash, if not more so. I'm not going to hold it against a ride that it didn't have a soundtrack that would have only made sense on the ride it was a part of.

Can we say for sure that it wasn't ridden by as many people? Splash has a very obvious huge drop as part of it. That will naturally deter many people from riding. Splash only gets 1500 people an hour, which isn't that great. We don't have the data in front of us, so we can't say for sure unless someone has said numbers and shares it with us.


At the time they closed it, sure. But it's almost certain that it got plenty of ridership simply because it was a train ride vs. a thrill ride. A train ride is always going to be more accessible than a ride with a big, obvious drop on it.

There were also related factors that would have given the park an incentive to get rid of the Mine Train-lower operational costs (don't need a CM per vehicle), it reportedly lost a lot of life when it lost the Mules in the same area (again-gotta save those CM expenses!), and it cut off Fantasyland from Frontierland. All of which probably made it very attractive for the park to remove it and just pin it on one factor that the public can understand. I don't think it's so simple as to say that those definitively weren't factors in the case of that ride.


YES!

Splash Mountain is not so integral either to Disneyland (or MK or TDL) so as to represent the park's thesis statement. I didn't care for GMR, but losing it was undoubtedly a much bigger deal for DHS and its identity than Splash is to any of the parks it's part of. See also: numerous EPCOT Center attractions.

Again, so many of these arguments for Splash are based on arbitrary factors that only hold up to scrutiny if you believe that Splash Mountain is a uniquely special, unimpeachable masterpiece of an attraction that nothing else has ever, and nothing else can ever, equal.

Thrills and soundtrack are not irrelevant. They create a strong emotional impact with the riders.

Wait are trying to say that you don’t know if Splash that existed longer than most of the other rides mentioned and exists in three parks during the three busiest decades ever at Disney parks (by Far) hasn’t been ridden by more people than any of the other attractions listed?

Ok you guys are just playing now.

 

[PiratesMansion]

Calm down bro

I'm plenty calm, thanks!

To bring it back to what you were saying with @Californian Elitist, can you definitively prove that Mine Train through Nature's Wonderland DOESN'T fit your criteria? Because other than ridership numbers, which we will likely never have, it seems to fit.

All that subjective messy stuff...blah blah. At the end of the day it is your thought and taste for the attraction.



Fact is fact though. Which is interesting but for some reason makes people really mad.

Have you proven that what you're saying isn't subjective? Because just saying that subjective things are facts over and over again does not make them facts.

Thrills and soundtrack are not irrelevant. They create a strong emotional impact with the riders.

Wait are trying to say that you don’t know if Splash that existed longer than any of the other rides mentioned and exists in three parks during the three busiest decades ever at Disney parks (by Far) hasn’t been ridden by more people than any of the other attractions listed?

Ok you guys are just playing now.

Well, it's news to me that no one cares about attractions like PPF, IASW, HM, or Pirates, that their soundtracks aren't memorable, or that they are incapable of creating a strong emotional impact because they aren't thrilling.

I'm saying that it seems like moving the goal posts if we were pretty clearly talking about Splash Mountain as one attraction in one park park in one resort, but suddenly now we're talking about how a version of Splash also exists in two other parks (and in one of those parks there's no proof that it's even closing) as if this is suddenly relevant, or that it's realistic to count the ridership statistics of three separate attractions as one thing so as to flimsily try to win an argument.

It just doesn't hold up to scrutiny. Any of it.

 

[Californian Elitist]

So then you agree the other three things I listed can be used to measure?

What kind of proof do you want? I used to gamble on sports so how about let’s say that things I listed would make it the heavy favorite that it is the most beloved attraction to ever close or be rethemed.

No, I don't. That one just really stood out to me as being unacceptable. Scale and time can't be used either. Even ridership is questionable. What about ridership?

I want concrete, actual proof, not personal opinions based on emotion and what folks think is true.

I'll save you effort. Something like this can't be proved.