Tiana's Bayou Adventure: Disneyland Watch & Discussion

DavidDL

Well-Known Member
I wouldn't be too worried about guest feedback, since the bigger rated attractions at Disneyland are usually the ones with just a couple (or even no) Audio Animatronics. Things like Soarin, Space Mountain, Big Thunder, Mission Breakout. There are a lot of decent E Tickets that fall into the few AA category... even Indy only has ... what three? And they're all basically the same figure.

Right, you don't need an AA to be a successful attraction, I won't dispute that. Though it likely comes down to the type of ride system and how it's implemented into the story that they want to tell. Indy only has about 4 dedicated AAs (3 Indys and a giant snake) but the entirety of the ride is mostly practical effects and sets that the vehicles move through, the sense of realism is still present with or without so many AAs. The center of my belief is simply that if a practical effect (or AA) can be used to do something, it should. The physical boulder rolling "towards" you on Indy is more impressive and better for the attraction than, perhaps a moving image of said boulder.

Yeah, in the spirit of compromise here, I think I might be willing to admit that part of my hesitancy toward Audio Animatronics has been the way they are used in attractions as of late. I agree that walking into the Tiki Room and watching a screen wouldn't be the same experience.

But to go back to something like Little Mermaid or Frozen: you *expect* to see those characters on the ride named after them, so the inclusion of an AA representing those characters isn't really impressive or exciting (at least to me). It's expected, predictable, and sometimes boring. It matters far more to me what the characters are doing, saying, and how they are interacting and in most of these setups, the AA's are very limited in what they can do.

Yes, implementation and what a figure can do is vital. Designers being able to make the call into the correct medium for the moment is important. So also in the spirit of compromise, I'd of course be willing to say that certain high movement and thrilling scenes like, Starscream hooking our vehicle and dragging us through the city skyline on an attraction like Transformers, would be nearly impossibly suited with practical effects (at least, with our current, limited tech).

Regarding Mermaid and Frozen that you bring up, I think the issues you take with these segments and figures can be traced back even further than the decision to use AAs for them. I think the issues you have might be traced all the way back to the initial storytelling itself. If, for example, the story Disney designs calls for the character or figure to speak (to us), sing or otherwise not do anything overly "impossible" in that moment, then is it really the fault of the physical figure for doing exactly what Disney wanted it to do? We know AAs are capable of great things. Screens too, but both are just machines and end up being reflections of those who direct them.

Disney rides are already given exorbitant budgets. They're the most expensive in the world. Saying they need to be given more money isn't really the solution.

Maybe you're right? There's certainly a level of responsibility that falls on artists and engineers to take what is allocated to them and make something special, smartly, with it. But given the stories that come out of WDI and the general history of the parks and their management culture, is it really fair not to criticize Disney for not allocating more funds for something?

In general, the current culture at Disney (from firsthand accounts) is for someone to approach with an idea, then to only be met with "how much is this going to cost?". That is technically a fair and realistic question to ask but it probably shouldn't be the first. The first question should be, "is this a proper fit for the park and is this an idea worth pursuing?" If it the answer is yes, then budget and building can be talked down when the ugly real world constraints start to get involved. But if they start to get cut down so much and to a point where the original vision and concept is totally lost or becomes ineffective, then the idea should be abandoned or put on hold until it can be done justice, for fear of overpromising/underdelivering something to Guests.

Some folks at WDI report pitching an idea, saying it will cost X dollars and then be told immediately, "I like it, but do it with half of X". Said Imagineer re-approaches with model or design using half of X and their boss will say, "why does this look so bad". Imagineers respond with, "well, because, it's literally half of what it could be", only to have the entire thing scrapped in the end and take their careers elsewhere because of workplace frustrations. This culture spreads and perhaps, now you have Imagineers simply stepping forward with pre-neutered works like the dancing fish in Mermaid because they know it's the only way to get approval.

I actually sort of disagree with the notion that "just throwing money" at something can't be a solution to a problem. Especially at the largest media empire in the world and especially when said problems are a problem simply because they were at risk of not getting proper funding, to begin with. I know this isn't the case all the time, there are certainly examples of more being built with less. But when you look at something like DCA 1.0, something built on the cheap because that's what they were mostly concerned with before ground even broken, is it really any wonder that the solution to their problem had to be, toss another $1.2 billion at it? Yeah, that's a lot of money but maybe if Disney had simply made the initial, what they perceived at the time to be, an overly agonizing financial investment, they wouldn't have had to pay even more down the line to fix what they admitted to be, a struggling park?

I just don't want the same thing to happen with Splash. I want Disney to know that they need to invest whatever funds are needed in order do this overlay and do it well the first time. Because if they don't, it's going to sit there, upsetting Guests until someday, they need to come along and do it again at even greater cost down the line.

But in the end, I will agree that there needs to be a better compromise between the realistic, financial burden of attraction building and building something worthwhile. Perhaps, if there really aren't the funds to do a good idea proper, maybe it shouldn't be done at all or at least, not yet?

I should also point out that the work needed to pull off a screen based effect can also be just as involved as that for an animatronic. In some cases, if the effect is leaning toward something novel (like the parallax effects being used in 3D), you're talking about a cutting edge field that could exceed the cost of building a simple AA.

That actually comes back to the heart of my argument: AA's are so commonplace now, they're just as ubiquitous as screens. There isn't any mystique about how they are done... people know and understand that Disney can build robots and they just take them for granted.

And no, I am not advocating for a full on replacement of practical sets for screens. I think the model going forward though will be something very similar to Rise of the Resistance or Smugglers Run: One or two AA's placed in key positions (or in the queue), with other effects (including screens) doing most of the heavy lifting.

Oh I wouldn't argue that the tech behind screens isn't complex. Arceus knows I could never get one working at the level at the level of something like Transformers.

But.. AAs more commonplace now? Maybe in theme parks, exclusively? They're both impressive but screens are a now integral part of our daily lives. Our phones, the computer screens we type on, our video games, even going to the movies. But AAs? Maybe someday (we're certainly on our way with some robotics) but not yet. How many of us can claim to have something even remotely close to the Auctioneer Pirate from PotC as accessible in their day to day life? Maybe the CMs working the attraction and those in the engineering field.. but that's really about it.

To close, I do agree with your assessment of Rise of the Resistance and Smugglers Run. If you're going to build an attraction where you fly the Millennium Falcon, there's no way that doesn't end up screen based. Practical wouldn't accomplish what that ride needs to. -and with Rise of the Resistance, you have mixed media working exactly where it needs to. The story calls for Kylo Ren to be on the bridge, then turn towards riders? Practical. No reason not to. The same story calls for Kylo Ren to fall from the ceiling then approach riders in a threatening manner just moments later? Gotta involve screens for that kind of movement (though cleverly, his lightsaber is still practical to help sell the illusion).

I simply hope that those designing the story for PatF are doing so in such a way, that it can make full use of what riders have come to expect from Splash and have made it such a classic despite being relatively young. Going totally screen-based in moments that could have otherwise been effectively communicated with practical figures or sets, could upset that notion. Conversely, going practical for a scene that requires more movement or effects to get the message really across, could lead to that awkwardness you experience on something like Mermaid. A blend of the two, complimenting each other and adding extra life, would be ideal. Splash show scenes tend to be tight, perhaps projections and screens could create the illusion that they go on for longer than they do? Or be used to compliment, say, a Dr. Facilier AA with animated and moving shadow creatures?

I am curious what your thoughts are on Mickey and Minnie's Runaway Railway, @el_super? I haven't been on it myself but it's definitely one of those attractions that calls for over the top animation, movement and show scenes and does what it can to blend both the practical and the physical. Would you consider it's implementation a success akin to RotR or more awkward like Mermaid/Frozen?
 
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Brer Panther

Well-Known Member
Disney was forced to announce the plans because of legal considerations over the originality of the idea, after this fan idea started to get attention. The longer they let it go, they better case someone would be able to bring against Disney for basically stealing the idea. It would look really bad.

But rest assured that Disney would not have announced it, unless they had some proof or evidence they could take to trial to show that they independently came up with the idea prior to the posting on the internet. Sure, it may have just been an email or a memo, but that would be enough to prove they came up with the idea independently.

No conspiracy necessary.
Wouldn't announcing the retheme after the idea was posted online still risk getting them sued? And I highly doubt Frederick Chambers is going to sue Disney over their using his idea. Unless Disney shows us the proof that you think they supposedly have that this idea was in the works before Chambers posted his idea, I'm calling shenanigans.
Because you are ignoring the simple premise that this new ride is being developed to replace Splash Mountain.
Then why doesn't Disney just come out and say it? Are they too afraid to come out and admit they don't give a crap about The Princess and the Frog and are just using it as a weapon against the Brers?
Disney wouldn't announce a concept such as this, unless they were prepared, in court, to show that they created the concept of this ride independently from any unsolicited creative ideas being posted on the internet. If they didn't, the original creators could sue for millions. Knowing that, and knowing how WDI works, should be enough to convince you that they came up with the idea well over a year ago.
Uh, no, that's not enough to convince me. You're just making an assumption that Disney wouldn't just announce a concept like this unless they had proof to show in court that they didn't just steal Frederick Chambers' idea. And they could probably get away with doing the exact same idea so long as they don't follow Chambers' Twitter pitch exactly.

I bet that if Chambers instead came up with the idea for, say, a Frozen retheme of the Matterhorn, that started petitions and eventually led to Disney announcing it, you probably wouldn't just shrug it off as a coincidence.
It's not hypocritical and it's not an either/or fallacy. People can have a varying degree of emotions and feelings and are more than capable of having more than one feeling at the same time. You can look back at the memories you had of the ride with fondness, and also be ready for a change.
If you A) like Splash Mountain and B) do not think that I am racist, why are you giving people like me such a hard time over not wanting it to change? And forgive us for not being ready for a change. Under Bob Iger's Disney, things have a habit of changing for the worse (The Great Movie Ride becoming Crack Addict Goofy's "Runaway" Railway That Actually Isn't So Much Running Away As It Is Slowly Trudging Along, Snow White's Scary Adventures being gutted for a meet-and-greet).
I want to believe that the gymnastics occurring here are a desperate attempt to reconcile a strong affection for the ride, and a desire to NOT be considered racist, which if sincere, is still a better position to be in than those that want to see it stay BECAUSE of the offensiveness.
There it is right there. You're saying that Splash Mountain is offensive and implying that I am racist for liking it. I am not racist. I think that discriminating against somebody over their skin color is stupid. I can recognize racism when I see it. I was never offended by the natives on the Jungle Cruise, but I understand why some people think it's racist. With Splash Mountain, I can't see how the presence of the Brers and a few songs is enough to make it an offensive attraction.
Blaming some poor kid on the internet isn't the answer.
"Some poor kid"? Frederick Chambers is currently being treated as some sort of genius, being interviewed for websites and articles, being sucked up to on Twitter, etc. for his idea that Disney is now using. If Disney really DID come up with the idea before he posted his, then all of that fame is undeserved.

And Chambers is a jerk anyway.
Yeah... that's the story. Supposedly the whole show (America Sings) was going to be packed up and moved to Tokyo, but someone in WDI had the sets destroyed in a desperate attempt to further their career.
First of all, I have never heard anything about America Sings being moved to Tokyo Disneyland (why would a theme park in Tokyo want a ride about America anyway?). Second, wow, way to insult Tony Baxter.
It is a good movie, and it definitely deserves an attraction. The new attraction will probably be pretty good, despite how difficult it will be to keep nostalgia from tainting the experience.
I don't disagree with you that The Princess and the Frog is a good movie and that it deserves an attraction. What it DOESN'T deserve is to be ignored for years and then only given attention by Disney when they realize that they can use it as a weapon against Brer Rabbit.

If you're just going to repeat the same arguments about how I'm supposedly racist for not wanting them to remove a theme park ride, please stop replying to my posts in this thread.
 

TP2000

Well-Known Member
I always greatly enjoy your posts and stories. That's actually really great that WDI is always developing new ideas and concepts independently.

In terms of movies/synergy does WDI end up having to pitch rides based on movies to sell their ideas? Or does the attachment of a property come after the fact?

Sorry for the delay, I was travelling lately.

WDI's sales pitch techniques have evolved over the decades. It's no big secret that in the last decade if you want to get an idea approved for an American park, it needs to be attached to a hot IP. Preferably one with big merchandise sales at Target.

The whole thing gets thrown out the window for OLC and the parks in Communist China. Although recently OLC has been trending to look more like the American model of IP's in the parks. The parks in China must have concepts that pass muster of the Chinese Communist Party. Isn't that fun?! Somehow, the Imagineers work that out in their mind that they are aiding and abetting the propaganda of an oppressive Communist regime, and still sleep at night knowing they can make their next year of Tesla payments. ;)

As for Teslas, no way in heck would I waste money on an expensive car that would only degrade in value.

The resale market is abysmal for those things. The battery packs are still the weakest link. In 2020, EV's accounted for just under 2% of the American automotive market. Mostly thanks to California. Two percent.

I will admit though, I have been thrilled with how Mr. Musk has reinvigorated this country's space program. We are going to beat the Chinese back to the moon, and get to Mars before them too. The Russians can't even compete any more, and are left renting out their circa 1980 Soviet rockets to a dwindling customer list. That's a stunning reversal from where this country was 10 years ago. That's all thanks to Elon Musk and his SpaceX team. Bravo!

I totally agree, if the ride isn't inclusive as Disney stated, how can they in good faith keep it running? Clearly they don't actually give a care and just want money. I don't understand their decision making at all.

I did keep my Splash Mountain zip loc bags which were given away to millions of people the same year Disney did away with plastic lids and straws to save the environment...

Save those Splash Mountain Ziploc bags for Ebay in 2050! They may not fund your retirement, but they'll at least pay for a nice meal. The retail market for old Disneyland junk is mind boggling. 🤣
 

mickEblu

Well-Known Member
So I saw a theory on Reddit that Pooh is getting refurbed now so that its ready to hold down the fort in Critter Country when Splash goes down for the
Retheme. Which would mean Splash is going down soon. Personally, I think it will stick around until at least through the holidays. It is odd timing though. I can’t recall Winnie the pooh ever being closed for refurbishment.
 

Animaniac93-98

Well-Known Member
I saw that too, so I’ve already thought about it a little. It’s interesting because in the past when Pooh went down for a scheduled closure, it was when Splash was also being refurbed. They’d close all of Critter Country, because that land was kind of pointless without Splash. Though, now that the land is a pathway to GE, it’s obviously a different situation. So it’s interesting.

"We regret to inform you that there are no more Boarding Groups available for Star Wars: Rise of the Resistance.

Please enjoy Paul Pressler's Winnie the Pooh instead. We think it's fun too!"
 

Nland316

Well-Known Member
So I saw a theory on Reddit that Pooh is getting refurbed now so that its ready to hold down the fort in Critter Country when Splash goes down for the
Retheme. Which would mean Splash is going down soon. Personally, I think it will stick around until at least through the holidays. It is odd timing though. I can’t recall Winnie the pooh ever being closed for refurbishment.
Are we talking FL dark ride treatment? Or just general refurb?
 

CaptinEO

Well-Known Member
Sorry for the delay, I was travelling lately.

WDI's sales pitch techniques have evolved over the decades. It's no big secret that in the last decade if you want to get an idea approved for an American park, it needs to be attached to a hot IP. Preferably one with big merchandise sales at Target.

The whole thing gets thrown out the window for OLC and the parks in Communist China. Although recently OLC has been trending to look more like the American model of IP's in the parks. The parks in China must have concepts that pass muster of the Chinese Communist Party. Isn't that fun?! Somehow, the Imagineers work that out in their mind that they are aiding and abetting the propaganda of an oppressive Communist regime, and still sleep at night knowing they can make their next year of Tesla payments. ;)



The resale market is abysmal for those things. The battery packs are still the weakest link. In 2020, EV's accounted for just under 2% of the American automotive market. Mostly thanks to California. Two percent.

I will admit though, I have been thrilled with how Mr. Musk has reinvigorated this country's space program. We are going to beat the Chinese back to the moon, and get to Mars before them too. The Russians can't even compete any more, and are left renting out their circa 1980 Soviet rockets to a dwindling customer list. That's a stunning reversal from where this country was 10 years ago. That's all thanks to Elon Musk and his SpaceX team. Bravo!



Save those Splash Mountain Ziploc bags for Ebay in 2050! They may not fund your retirement, but they'll at least pay for a nice meal. The retail market for old Disneyland junk is mind boggling. 🤣
The IP thing is so sad. This was shown on the WDW side of the forum. This is the kind of stuff Walt Disney would be making if he were alive:



This is pure magic and great ride design in every way, and it's no movie ad either. This bests Disney in every way possible. This is the charm, design, and imagination WDI thinks they have when they make documentaries praising how great they are.

The whole China thing is insane, especially when Disney tries to claim to Americans that they are so progressive, yet they work with and aid an oppressive government.

I do really like the idea of Space exploration making a comeback. It really is amazing how much it has changed, like you mentioned.

I should save those Ziplocs, they were a fun surprise in one of our backpacks we found when doing Spring Cleaning. Disney won't even sell people Splash Merch anymore so I may as well hold onto it. I agree the market for vintage Disneyland is really high, especially for the era of great rides. It's amazing how much merch they continue to sell for pirates, tiki room, and haunted mansion. Yet where's all the Rise of the Resistance and Incredicoaster fanfare and merchandise?

People love things that are authentic with real thought, imagination, and charm. I can't imagine people going crazy for Web Slingerz merchandise 30 years from now.
 

EagleScout610

This post has been fact checked by Morbo News(tm)
Premium Member
So I saw a theory on Reddit that Pooh is getting refurbed now so that its ready to hold down the fort in Critter Country when Splash goes down for the
Retheme. Which would mean Splash is going down soon. Personally, I think it will stick around until at least through the holidays. It is odd timing though. I can’t recall Winnie the pooh ever being closed for refurbishment.
I don't think Pooh can hold Critter Country.
 

EagleScout610

This post has been fact checked by Morbo News(tm)
Premium Member
Screenshot_20210608-120834_Instagram.jpg
 

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