The Spirited Sixth Sense ...

[twebber55]

I agree to an extent. I think memorable characters and a good script matter though. Your example of the godfather is flawed since it's an incredible book and was a great screenplay as well. Avatar lacks both of those.

But again let's see. We have no idea what the sequels have in store and how much control JC has over Avatarland.

well another example would be Cars land at DCA vs Toy Story land at HKDL....cars land is much better and more popular theme park environment yet Toy Story is much more rich in character and story line and overall better movies

i do disagree with people who say it has no story or the story is bad..the bottom line the movie really isnt about blue cat people but thats for another discussion

i m arguing semantics here i know just bored waiting on 7DMT lol

 

[71jason]

I'm wondering if Cameron is incorporating arteries eateries and menus into the next movie solely to give Pandora something to work with so it won't feel forced. I don't think it's a far fetched idea that he would do that.

(Edit, because my iPad autocorrected "eateries" to arteries and..well, both are appropriate and one is kinda hilarious)

Ha!

I mean, he could, but I think it would still feel forced even in the movie's own universe. "Oh yeah, he's the Blue Cat People bazaar we failed to mention in the first movie..."

 

[ScoutN]

LOTR has yet to be signed by anyone.

The gun they have primed to fire is possibly bigger, depending on the implementation.

Hmm I wonder if you hear as I hear.

 

[Cesar R M]

Another poster summed it up perfectly. The winter Olympics have become a blurred line between sports and the X games. Free style skiing? How many snow boarding events? I don't think the Greeks had this in mind.

greeks had WINTER OLYMPICS???

THIS - the essence of Blue Toilet.

I dont think jimmy knows that "forever" is a LONG TIME.
And in business, nothing lasts forever.
specially to a company only used to "leech" and not "develop". (at least the park side)

The problem for WDW today is that there already are signs that they are pushing prices to their limits, without providing a corresponding improvement in content.

The number of empty rooms at WDW is at an all-time high.

In 2013, WDW averaged about 5,700 empty rooms per night.

Excluding DVC, WDW has about 5,700 Deluxe Resort rooms. For some perspective, that means WDW averaged the equivalent of completely empty Grand Floridian, Polynesian, Contemporary, Beach Club, Yacht Club, Wilderness Lodge, Boardwalk Inn, and Animal Kingdom Lodge hotels.

2002 was a horrible year for WDW.

Yet in 2013, WDW averaged 400 more empty rooms per night than they did in 2002.

Empty rooms at WDW have become a major concern.

Let’s look at what has happened to Per Room Guest Spending since then. In 2002, it was $204. In 2013, it was $267. That’s an increase of only 2.5% annually.

The CPI has averaged 2.4% annually over the same period.

WDW’s hotel prices have stagnated and yet WDW has a record number of empty rooms.

Now let’s consider what’s happened to ticket prices.

A 4-day ticket was $199 in 2002. In 2013, it was $363, an annual increase of 5.8%. Compounded over 11 years, that's just painful.

Median household income has averaged only 1.7% over that same period.

The cold, hard reality is that when prices increase faster than wages, people have to make choices.

Right now, vacationers are choosing to stay offsite in order to afford WDW’s tickets.

Oh, and to be able to afford their $10.19 Wendy’s quality burger that used to be $7.39 only a few years ago.

International vacationers get a lot of attention right now but 80% of WDW “guests” still come from the U.S.A.

What happens when WDW ticket and food prices continue to increase?

What choice do people make next?

At what point do people decide that a WDW vacation simply isn’t worth it anymore?

At what point does WDW simply become unaffordable for Disney’s core audience?

Isn't this why they are pushing DVC so far? trying to move away the "push" to fill resort hotels to push people into long commitment payments?
also I'm pretty sure that if prices continue to go high that exponentially.. the rest of the world will be the first to stop going. As It will take forever to save money for a single trip.
WDW might convert into a "single trip and forget forever" event.

This is important. Young families and folks who are planning for families are being priced out/have been priced out and can't imagine what it will cost to take their families on vacation to wdw in a few years from now. Instead of affording a vacation every year it's becoming every few years. Disney should be worried about this. It doesn't seem like they are.

I believe it was @ParentsOf4 who posted a graph showing price jumps versus years and CEOs and in a few years time prices doubled under Iger. I can see at least two more price hikes before he's out of the CEO role but his replacement may be just as ruthless.

My question is this. Who exactly are they targeting, going forward? They obviously don't want the poorer folks nor a good chunk of the remaining middle class (raise your hand and show your age if you remember what that is!) in their parks because if they did, everything wouldn't be as expensive as it is.

Are they looking to push people to spend more "quality time" with their young families...at the beach, or at the local amusement park, because the dream of wdw is no longer attainable and only getting worse? What is the end goal here?

How is it that we can see the death spiral but those who are creating it are completely blind to it?

And what the hell happened to old man disneys vision of family time for everyone?

There will always be folks to replace those so us who can no longer afford to go to the parks, spend nights in the hotels, and eat at their restaurants. But to appeal ONLY to those first timers is a big mistake. Especially when your prices are so high, a lot of would be park goers start weighing out the value of their dollars- parks with no recent additions, expensive hotels, expensive dining, but heavy with popular characters and that "take your child to disney" milestone... Or more affordable hotels, better dining, better value for your dollar, and new attractions added yearly? And if you think I'm talking about just Universal, you're wrong. Local amusement parks are trying to step up their game. Boardwalk entertainments in Jersey, hell even a day at the beach in Florida is becoming more attractive to those watching their dollars nod making them stretch...

And to collect big IPs and do absolutely nothing with them is folly. They're collecting them like monopoly properties but neglecting to charge $400 for landing on park place.

Rant over.

I suppose the new strategy is "pay when you can, if not, We do not want you".

Is that because you have half a mind?

that sounded kinda rude D:

 

[Soarin' Over Pgh]

Hmm I wonder if you hear as I hear.

That's just so wrong. Torture to the rest of us!

Ha!

I mean, he could, but I think it would still feel forced even in the movie's own universe. "Oh yeah, he's the Blue Cat People bazaar we failed to mention in the first movie..."

Haha true! But if he incorporates it juuuust right it could be a nice tie in.

I'm really trying hard not to think of the characters and instead focus on the land itself...it's making the "world of avatar" more tolerable to eliminate the characters, story line, plot, and land destruction. You know, gut the whole thing.

 

[Cesar R M]

Yes, Azkaban Prison... Though we did only see it once in the movies... But, I'm sure they could come up with something.. Problem is, how many dementor attacks can you possibly have before it gets boring? Forbidden Journey... and on Hogwarts Express... That is really enough dementor attacks lol..

Dementors supposedly show your true fear.. so they could use it to set more types of fears.. clowns.. spiders..etc..
Have you ever read the book?


also, wow.. this conversation degraded into "my tastes for potter are better than your tastes for avatar!"

 

[The_Mesh_Hatter]

Dementors supposedly show your true fear.. so they could use it to set more types of fears.. clowns.. spiders..etc..
Have you ever read the book?


also, wow.. this conversation degraded into "my tastes for potter are better than your tastes for avatar!"

You're thinking of Boggarts.

 

[ford91exploder]

No offense but I would take a Wendy's burger over the crap that WDW has been serving ... if your going to have 'fast food' as your primary choice for your flagship park at least make it good.

Agree at least a Wendy's burger is tasty, not the grey cardboard they are serving at WDW, Even hospital burgers are tastier AND less expensive and i've eaten quite a few at a wide assortment of hospitals.

 

[HenryMystic]

Come on, hint?

All I will say is that it's perfect for Universal. I'm excited.

 

[ford91exploder]

I'm not opening the bajillion "Does Avatar Fit" conversations here again, I swear. My point is that currently, the one thing that Avatar has going for it is he created an incredibly visual "world", and given unlimited funds and creativity, an incredible experience could be created. How many visitors have read the works of Jules Verne, yet that section of DisneySea is fairly universally praised.
The IF there is a huge one though. Currently, they have a large section of open land. Nearly an clean piece of paper. IF they treat it right, it can be mind blowing. Its a big IF, and one I'm not really confident they can pull off, but the potential is there.

You are correct in the POTENTIAL is there, Can TDO resist the temptation to 'value engineer' the land?

 

[HenryMystic]

Pandora is a blank sheet... lots of freedom. But that also begs "why should it be pandora in the first place?" - if the IP doesn't give you strong lead-ins and emotional bonds... it's a weak property to license. That is the root issue with many people's complaints about Avatar... its so shallow what does it bring to the table.

Very well put.

 

[Pumbas Nakasak]

So my opinion of both Uni parks being 1/2 day parks makes me one dimensional? I like the product that's being offered at both parks and I know they are only going to get better. I think HS and AK are half day parks so you just sound like a prick

One dimensional and inarticulate. Keep your toys in the pram silly wee fan boy.

 

[marni1971]

OK, lets bounce some logic.

Now has anyone actually entertained the thought Disney does not have to build more attractions and DHS or the other parks beside MK because instead of, ahem, being cheap, they simply just don't have to?

...

All the time.

As you must know since you just have to keep bringing it up.

 

[Pumbas Nakasak]

All the time.

As you must know since you just have to keep bringing it up.

Dont feed it.

 

[Animaniac93-98]

It comes down to a simple fact--virtually any IP can be developed into an attraction. Very, very few have enough world-building to work as a WWoHP-esque "land." Transformers is a great ride, but it couldn't support an entire area like Simpsons or Cars does. My guess is Pandora will be similar. It's a world that seemingly lacks the concept of restaurants and shops--an attempt to create those out of whole cloth is going to feel forced, like the menu at Gaston's.

At least Gaston's is an established place in the world of Beauty and the Beast. That and "tavern fare" isn't too hard to understand.

Where to I get my food in Pandora? An army bunker cafeteria? Can humans even eat the stuff that grows there? Where do I buy merchandise?

 

[marni1971]

Dont feed it.

It's just for fun now.

 

[marni1971]

One ride housed in a building not nearly as iconic as Hogwarts and without Harry himself playing a major role, and a Train ride that you need a two park ticket to experience. I could see The Hogwarts Express creating some bad will among certain theme park guests.

Also if Potter 1.0 is any indication, the walkways, stores, and attractions will be undersized and cramped(as per JK Rowling's request).

Please do keep going....

 

[sshindel]

You're doing the 'half full' vs 'half empty' dance. The lack of content in Avatar gives freedom... but makes it harder to sell continuity and it 'fitting'. HP's abundance of content could be seen as 'more obstacles to work around' but really it is more launching points, and more opportunities to establish credibility and link the projects together.

One is a root system.. from which you can grow. The other is a barren field you can build anything you want in.. but will it actually connect with anything, or how strongly?

The folklore and characters provide strong things people can relate to.. and create bonds with. That extends into IP licensing as well. But when your story is shallow and people create no bonds with the characters or folklore... there is far less attachment.

Pandora is a blank sheet... lots of freedom. But that also begs "why should it be pandora in the first place?" - if the IP doesn't give you strong lead-ins and emotional bonds... it's a weak property to license. That is the root issue with many people's complaints about Avatar... its so shallow what does it bring to the table.

I had a long response written, but realize it's just another notch in the "Duz Avatar sux or rule" conversation that's played here for many years now. And it's one I started again, when I said I wasn't going to. So my bad there.

I'll just say that I agree with quite a bit of this. I was playing half-full/half-empty purposefully, because in my mind, that exists. It's not 100% one way or the other, and in the end, it'll come down to execution. Either it will prove why this was a good choice of an IP, or it'll prove why it was a terrible one.

 

[flynnibus]

I'll just say that I agree with quite a bit of this. I was playing half-full/half-empty purposefully, because in my mind, that exists. It's not 100% one way or the other, and in the end, it'll come down to execution. Either it will prove why this was a good choice of an IP, or it'll prove why it was a terrible one.

Yes, the freedom is a double edged sword. Typically Licensed properties are used to give you a 'head start' in establishing a relationship or understanding. They are in effect.. a stepping stone. How you use it varies greatly, but the gist is the same. Avatar being largely 'virgin ground' means 'infinity possibilities' but the further you go away from the source material, the weaker the 'head start' you get from the license. An extreme case of this would be to take a licensed hero character.. and then throw it into a setting completely foreign to the original source material. Yes, you may still be using your favorite action hero... but he will seem out of place or confusing for people.

Lots of ways you can slice it... but historically you want to leverage the existing, rather than be responsible for creating everything new. You want to 'extend' vs 'start from scratch'. Star Tours is an example of extending the known source material into an area completely made up by the designers. They anchor it with elements people are familiar with (the characters, the destinations, the reasoning behind the conflicts you stumble into). It's these 'anchor points' that give credibility to your new creation's pedigree. Same with the Star Trek encounters done by paramount, etc.

Pandora itself is the anchor point for Avatar. The scenery, the animals, the funky non-earth elements like the floating mountains, glowing plants, etc. They are going to be easy pickings to establish the setting and they of course are elements people want to experience themselves.. so that is a draw. The Navi physical characteristics and their primitive 'built from nature' design are other anchor points that will lend credibility to the environment. The question becomes is.. where do they take the story or characters that you will be interested in as well. That's where things get harder... because that's where Avatar was weakest.

 

[tirian]

That burger I had at Epcot was easily the worst burger I've ever had. I would have preferred Wendy's at that point... And I really don't care much for fast food. Learned my lesson, don't eat at QS in Epcot.

Not a burger. France, Sunshine Seasons, and Morocco are tasty.