The Spirited Sixth Sense ...

WDW1974

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
Speaking on the topic of DVC as well, i'd really love it if they built a DVC in Tokyo, Paris, Hong Kong, Shanghai. I realize though that Disney doesn't own most of those parks (plus Disney wants to just make WDW one big hotel), but it would encourage travel to those other Disney Resorts by DVC Owners if there were DVC Resorts there.

Not that there isn't reason enough to go already, but business wise, it would seem like the value of the vacation club would be increased if there were more destinations to travel to. Instead of clustering up DVC in one area, it makes much more sense to spread them around where your global destinations are imo.

Disney has largely decided that DVC is going to be an O-Town based business.

This actually started with Michael Eisner and was a big mistake. He sold off land in Newport Beach, CA. that Marriott gobbled up and built a showcase Vacation Club of its own. Plans to build in NYC and Colorado and New England all were tabled. Land overlooking Golf Disneyland in Paris was sold to Marriott, which again built an amazing resort of its own (I stayed in their showcase Grand Villa in 2012 and I would gladly take it as my second residence!)

Considering the issues with Aulani, the decision to not go thru with the mixed use project in D.C. and the lack of additional capacity being added in Anaheim, one can surmise that Bob is following Michael's mistake again.

It certainly isn't as easy to sell resorts outside of WDW. I was flipping thru the current Eyes and Ears and see Disney is offering CM rates at Hilton Head and Vero Beach of 60% off into May.
 

Nubs70

Well-Known Member
Would it be safe to say that Iger is more comfortable managing through finances, efficiency, and acquisitions. He's not comfortable with managing through organic growth.

When he does attempt organic growth, it's over budget and underwhelming. i.e., he's happy to buy Lucas Arts, but FLE and MM+ are both late and not all we'd hope. Not sure if that's to simplistic or unfair.
Iger is exactly this.. He is a manager not a leader.
 

Funmeister

Well-Known Member
I have no idea, but their bus and ferry expansion speaks volumes ... as does the fact the monorail fleet is literally falling apart and is well past a 'replace by' date.

Yeah, monorail black was struck by lightning about 13 years ago and parts were spare then. The fleet is getting more and more expensive by the day because parts are now having to be custom made. Imagine if they would have gotten on the bandwagon when DLR replaced theirs? I realize adjustments would have had to have been made but for the most part...most parts...could be universal between all trains.

Speaking of monorails being "Universal".........;)
 

stlphil

Well-Known Member
I'm just loving the heartfelt, introspective, personal analysis of the ups and downs of WDC and the historical significance of ME over the last few pages. Thanks Spirit for inspiring us!

I have no insider information, just a lot of observation over the years, and so here is my contribution to this clearinghouse of ideas, some of which are quite contrary to the orthodoxy.

First my take on Eisner. As with all real human beings, I think no simple description or explanation can be adequate. A complex mix of ego, creativity, grasping at power in trying to be a true "media mogul", loving what he was doing, insecurity, and concern for his legacy, with the relative proportions of these and other characteristics changing significantly over the years.

Yes, a lot of good in the first few years. Personally, I don't give him a lot of credit for wanting the buildout at WDW, that was a no-brainer, but he does deserve credit for the drive to actually accomplish it and some of the creative directions.

Why did things go wrong? Some combination of Frank Wells' death and the EuroDisney debacle? Probably. There has been a lot of debate on which of these was more important, but I think it hardly matters because they were coupled. I think the result of these two incidents is that he paradoxically lost an important check on his ego and lost his nerve to take chances, both at the same time. With EuroDisney, his ego wouldn't let him see his own culpability in the mess, and he didn't have anyone (Wells) to force him to see it. And so WDI got all the blame in his mind, and he never trusted them again. Yet down deep I also think he knew he was partially to blame, and this led to indecisiveness and timidity in the later years.

Some of the previous posters have excused some of his blunders by saying they were the fault of his lieutenants. Me, I don't buy that for a moment- the man was a notorious micromanager, in fact I may have first heard this term when it was applied to him (yeah, I've lived a sheltered life). More specifically, I blame him and can't forgive him for placing and then (as Al Lutz proposed) promoting Paul Pressler, which I think was the beginning of the downfall of the parks. And perhaps not coincidentally Pressler got to Disneyland about the same time as the other two events. Pressler drove (and later institutionalized as head of Parks and Resorts) the cost-cutting, maintenance-reducing, bottom-line driven, "if it's good enough for Six Flags" attitude. For thinking that decorating carnival rides (or putting in oversized icons at hotels and parks) is the same as theming. The very definition of "not getting it ".

So Disneyland became a disaster starting in the late 90's, fortunately this was after the crowning achievements of Indy and Fantasmic, which he arrived on the scene too late to kill, although he did try. He was in charge for the destruction of the heart-and-soul of EPCOT Center (Horizons), the "redo" of Imagination, and the dumbing down of Future World. It seems the current state of WDW has its genesis in the corporate culture of that era, for which I ultimately blame Eisner. And now it appears that Colglazier may be Presslerizing Disneyland again. It is all so sad.

As for Iger? My earlier comment on the complex motivations of human beings doesn't apply to robots, so here's my simple take. Look, repairing the relationship and buying Pixar was a good thing, and he rightly got praise. Not knowing what else to do, he keeps trying to repeat that success with more acquisitions, and little else. (It's not like he was a master of acquisitions previously during his time at ABC, unless you count getting bought by Disney. And let's not forget that ABCs ratings were a disaster back then under his watch, part of the reason they were a relatively cheap purchase.)
 

FrankLapidus

Well-Known Member
good to know there are good movies coming from Pixar.
I'm currently angry, nauseated and ready to punch michael bay for the terrible trailer of the turd TMNT movie.
Everything smells like transformers except replacing the main autobots with the turtles.

Were you really expecting anything else from Michael Bay? ;)

Growing up I loved the Turtles so I'm not going to subject myself to whatever Bay has in store. I was pleasantly surprised by the first Transformers film, then I saw the second one and felt angry at myself for ever believing he might actually do something good with the franchise, another one I grew up with.
 

SirLink

Well-Known Member
You are correct that many bad decisions were made by department heads but it's well documented that Eisner was very involved with park decisisons. Eisner was a well known micro manager who would even want to get his opinion in when it came down to things like the color of curtains in resort rooms. He changed Zip-A-Dee-Doo-Dah River Run's name to Splash Mountain because he wanted it to serve as an advertisement to the then in production Splash Movie with Darryl Hannah. He even got in the middle of the plans for Star Tours and and told Baxter it would be smarter to call the ride Star Ride since it would be easier for guests to understand what it is.

I also hold Eisner completely responsible for the destruction of Epcot Center. He was first in line to say that Epcot's philosophy was boring and not hip enough and was very keen to demolish expensive lavishly themed attractions like World of Motion and Horizons and replace them with bare bone thrill rides like Test Track and Mission Space. Tomorrowland 1998 at Disneyland is on his head as well. Baxter's team had been working on other designs and Eisner stuck his nose in and told them to drop everything and focus on how he viewed the future.

Concerning DCA, Eisner did not have a hand in the improvement plans. Several projects including Cars Land were in bluesky and other projects were pitched but Eisner was completely in denials about DCA's problems. At best a watered down version of just Radiator Springs Racers would have been approved by Eisner and it wouldn't have opened in 2012 it would be opening this year instead. Just like we saw with the "quick fixes" shortly after opening off the shelf carnival rides themed to A Bug's Life and a barebones clone of Tower of Terror. It was close to two years after Eisner left that the improvement plans were finalized and approved.

Wrong just plain misguided wrong. General Motors wanted a thrill ride so WDI designed what they got. HP didn't want to sponsor Horizons but wanted a Space Pavilion - WDI pitched them a lavish but costly Space Pavilion and it was built as such.

Tomorrowland 1998 was Paul Pressler moving funds around like an obsessed lab rat which ensured it would run a ground.... but hey believe what you want to believe Anticitizen Zero.
 

WDW1974

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
Eisner just happened to be there because he was taking his grandkids on a vacation. Iger does visits the parks and is familiar with the attractions and the happenings of each resort.

Yes, he was taking his grandkids on a vacation and proudly showing off a resort he helped build.

When does Iger go to WDW when there isn't a business reason? When is he ever seen riding Tron Track or Little Mermaid or Tot with his wife and kids? Just enjoying a large piece of the media company he runs?

How about never?

Eisner is the one who put the current leadership team in place, helped corrode the culture at WDI and Walt Disney Animation, used Tony Baxter as a scapegoat and threw him in a position where he couldn't do anything for decades, propped up losers like Michael Ovitz, Paul Pressler, and Cynthia Harris, etc.

The current leadership is due to Bob Iger and Jay Rasulo. Let's look at who has been running the company for the last nine years. The leadership at every resort has changed since Michael was CEO, some multiple times. New positions have been created as well (see Meg Crofton). I don't want to be an Eisner apologist, so I'm just going with the facts.

The culture at WDI has been poison for decades. The reality is Michael had very little to do with what happened there daily, much like Bob. WDFA was absolutely run poorly in Michael's later years, BUT ... it wouldn't have existed at all by then, let alone created all those amazing hits and IP that is beloved around the globe IF Michael hadn't of come to power to start with. FA was dead before he arrived. And while he made some major mistakes with it (largely hiring the wrong people to run it), it sure doesn't look dead now. So, let's simply say they had a great period followed by a relatively short down period and they are back near the top again.

Baxter, as much as I personally like and respect him, was often his own worst enemy. And anyone who knows him and knows how he conducted himself will tell you the same. ... And, notice, that he wasn't forced out of the company by Michael. No, that happened after almost a decade of Bob's leadership where Bob never seemed to care about Tony's talents and left him on the sidelines.

Ovitz was a disaster that even Michael would admit. But, at the time, it didn't seem to be a bad hire. Ovitz was that generation's Ari Emanuel.

Pressler and Harriss were both highly regarded executives in the retail field that helped grow The Disney Store chain. The mistake was moving them into P&R positions. .... But again, that is something that Bob has no trouble doing as well.

At least Paul ran DL before becoming head of P&R, Tom Staggs had no parks experience whatsoever.

Eisner is the one who ruined Epcot because he felt it wasn't hip enough, he is the one who A-ok'd the wand on SSE, the Vietnam memorial in the front of epcot, and the giant Pin trading Hat in front of the Great Movie Ride. He took control of the Tomorrowland'98 and Disneyland 2nd. gate projects and replaced Disney appropriate concepts with extremely terrible and out-there anti-disney stuff that he then cut the funding for and when the projects came out like garbage he threw his subordinates under the bus and walked away from the mess.

One man didn't ruin EPCOT. ... wait, why am I arguing this point by point with you? You simply have a hate for the man and it is much easier to blame someone who is gone and has no decision-making power than it is to blame the guy who is running the company now and has been for almost a decade.

It's Iger who had to clean up Eisner's mess by getting the board to spend $2 billion to salvage DCA, giving away the farm to Steve Jobs to get back into his (and Pixar's) good graces, mending the fence with George Lucas, Attempting to bring back traditional fairy tale stories and hand drawn animation, etc. and he's done an outstanding job of it which is why Disney stocks are soaring to all time highs under Bob Iger.

Has everyone suddenly forgotten about how bad Disney animation was pre-Lasseter? Remember Chicken Little and Home on the range? Remember the nonstop flood of direct to video cheaply made Disney sequels? The state of the parks (where some people actually died because maintenance was being neglected)?

Let's be blunt: Jobs was an egomaniac who is somehow viewed as a visionary because he has created products that people who want to be hip buy. The reality is no one was going to pony up the kind of dollars Pixar was asking for, but Disney. I know this one. Pixar was either going to go it alone and lose Disney's marketing machine or they were going to become part of the company. The fact John Lasseter hated Michael almost as much as a day sans wine doesn't change those realities.

And if your measure for the success of a company is strictly based on the price per share, then you can't also claim to give a damn about what kind of product that company creates or how it makes that price happen.
 

WDW1974

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
Iger has led the way on even more quality cuts, theme park stagnation, and much higher prices at WDW.

WDW remained fresh under Eisner.

Under Iger, WDW has grown old.

Everyone has their threshold of pain.

I did not reach my threshold while Eisner was in charge.

I have with Iger.

Your post was quite spot on in many respects, but I quoted the above because I think it cuts through all rhetoric and nails the point.

I didn't agree with many things that happened at WDW during Michael's latter years in charge, but things did happen.

What has happened at WDW under Iger? Really ... and I also wasn't tired of the place under Eisner because good stuff came (DAK Lodge, Soarin, EE etc) and some stuff I could do without (Mission Space, KRR, PhilharMagic, LMA etc) but even in the those last 5-6 years, there was a steady flow of new product, new experiences.

Honestly, I am at a loss at what items of consequence have come to WDW since 2006. More DVCs ... TSMM and AIE ... cuts all over ... finally an underwhelming New Fantasyland. Not much. Not much at all.
 

WDW1974

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
AHHH...I see what you mean. Kind of like "organic" appearances. You are correct there. I remember standing next to Judson and Michael at various attraction openings. Not for speeches but because they wanted to see how it was going and experience it for themselves. I know some are split on Judson but I liked his work.

I liked Judson a lot, but didn't know him well. He was definitely passionate about the parks, though. He is sort of like Wing Chao in that his contributions to Disney sorta get buried by stronger personalities.

Judson, a musician himself, also cared and understood the creative process. No one that has headed P&R since can say the same.
 

WDW1974

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
Would it be safe to say that Iger is more comfortable managing through finances, efficiency, and acquisitions. He's not comfortable with managing through organic growth.

When he does attempt organic growth, it's over budget and underwhelming. i.e., he's happy to buy Lucas Arts, but FLE and MM+ are both late and not all we'd hope. Not sure if that's to simplistic or unfair.

It's largely accurate. Simplistic? Maybe some. Unfair? Nope.
 

WDW1974

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
Wow. Just quoting for exposure, really. Great stuff.

I'm just curious...which part of all that determined his falling out with Roy E? I know he "retired" ala Tony Baxter but I've never really seen that as Eisner's doing.

Roy was a real guy and I always respected that aspect of him as well as his passion for animation and storytelling.

BUT ... Roy didn't have an issue with Michael until the stock started to tank AND because of his age he was forced off the Board. It wasn't until that point that the whole Save Disney movement (I offered assistance and was blown off and, yes, I do think that was a mistake) came about. It was too late and if Roy truly had many issues with Michael they should have been raised years before. He didn't. They weren't.
 

WDW1974

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
I think people lose sight of the fact Michael Eisner always insisted on riding/experiencing new park additions (and resort hotels) before guests did. He wanted to see what they would and he wasn't always kind (see my comment on his reaction to Imagination 2.0). Do you think Iger has experienced any of New Fantasyland yet? Has he experienced staying at DAK Lodge for five nights with a MAGIC Band all like a normal guest would? How is that leadership?

Also, @MerlinTheGoat has a looooong post above and while I could argue various points, I'd rather leave him to his opinions (some I agree with, some I do not). But I do want to state again clearly that Matt Ouimet came up as a Michael exec, was instrumental in DCL getting off the ground and becoming a bastion of quality and was elevated to DLR Prez by Michael.

He was forced out of the company by Jay Rasulo for going around him to bring concerns to Bob directly and for letting it be known that he wouldn't mind running P&R one day. Bob allowed Jay to push him out. He is now at Cedar Fair and doing wonders for DL's neighbor, Knott's Berry Farm.
 

Figments Friend

Well-Known Member
One of my all-time favorite Michael Eisner tales was his response after riding Imagination 2.0 ... and I know it is true because I know the person who rode behind him. Michael was so angry and just yelled ''Where the (f word deleted) did my $53 million go?'' There were other angry comments after but that's the important and telling line.

I can tell you as sure as I am here that if he had known how that disaster would have turned out that we would still have the original (stale, but intact) today.


Surely it pales in comparison to the colorful words Mr. Baxter must have uttered after his own viewing of the decimation....

:arghh:
 

jt04

Well-Known Member
I think people lose sight of the fact Michael Eisner always insisted on riding/experiencing new park additions (and resort hotels) before guests did. He wanted to see what they would and he wasn't always kind (see my comment on his reaction to Imagination 2.0). Do you think Iger has experienced any of New Fantasyland yet? Has he experienced staying at DAK Lodge for five nights with a MAGIC Band all like a normal guest would? How is that leadership?

Also, @MerlinTheGoat has a looooong post above and while I could argue various points, I'd rather leave him to his opinions (some I agree with, some I do not). But I do want to state again clearly that Matt Ouimet came up as a Michael exec, was instrumental in DCL getting off the ground and becoming a bastion of quality and was elevated to DLR Prez by Michael.

He was forced out of the company by Jay Rasulo for going around him to bring concerns to Bob directly and for letting it be known that he wouldn't mind running P&R one day. Bob allowed Jay to push him out. He is now at Cedar Fair and doing wonders for DL's neighbor, Knott's Berry Farm.

With all due respect, since ME was CEO social media devices and instant messaging have become a thing in case you don't realize it. Granted it existed back then but nothing like it does now. One post to facebook I.E. can literally reach 100's in milliseconds. That kind of tech has to create all sorts of new security concerns for all those in the public eye. If Eisner was CEO today there is no way he could wander the parks without security.

And the only reason he can now is because likely 90% (at least) of guests have no idea who he is. Much less that he used to run the place.

I wasn't going to bring this up but you just keep mentioning the subject. Likely you will never see another day when a Disney CEO just wanders the parks without security. You may bear some of the blame for that. Just saying.

Did you ever call out Steve Jobs for not wandering around the parks without security?
 

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