The Spirited Sixth Sense ...

[DisneyMarmot]

I personally find the loss of the little details, like the Casey's bleachers and potentially the real steam engines to be more disheartening then the whole MyMagic+ fiasco. I think an understated part of the whole NextGen system is that it upgrades a lot of the underlying infrastructure that drives a lot of functions throughout the parks. I like sleeping in and having Fastpasses, but as I've tried to reserve ride times 60 days out and coordinate activities with another party I've realized just how silly that element seems. I told someone at work you had to reserve ride times two months in advance and they looked at me like I had a second head...

I'd love to see awesome new E-tickets every year like Universal is doing, but more than that I'd like to go and see a clean and well maintained monorail. I'd like to see them unifying the new theme throughout fantasyland. I'd like Futureworld to be full. I'd like adventureland to be thematically united.

I guess what I'm saying is that I want WDW to be as good as it can be, and sometimes I think there is a tendency in these threads to focus overly on NextGen, and while this is justified due to its massive cost, I myself find a hard time rectifying that with a lack of appreciation for what WDW exists as and what else is being lost.

 

[Gomer]

I assure you this change will not be seamless, Think of a aircompressor for a jackhammer for the sound of the power source and the stench of diesel exhaust for the smell.

But if they set it up to run on BioDiesel like Disneyland (the ultimate cost cutting measure since they can recycle their own oil for fuel) the exhaust wouldn't be an issue, would it? I'm honestly asking if anyone knows. I've always heard BioDiesel exhaust smells like French Fries (already one of the predominant smells of WDW) but I have never witnessed it firsthand.

As far as the sound goes, that just seems like a different ear piercing loud sound, but not significantly worse than the existing decibel level of the engine (which is deafening up close).

 

[Cesar R M]

The NGE 'Project' of course had it's own architecture group, Disney does not see IT as a 'core function' so it chooses to do things on a project basis so each system in effect stands alone and has it's own support structure.

Hopefully with the new addition to the BoD IT will get a higher profile and importance within Disney and they will constitute a core IT group who has charge of the overall direction of Disney IT.

@WDW1974 might have some more insight into the direction corporate IT is going.

I'm still surprised how long it took for disney to start linking their networks in the information age.
they are huge entertainment and services provider.. and in these type of fields.. information is king.

Like the magic................

..and themed bathrooms...oh wait!...

Pirates of the Caribbean would be just as good with static figures and two dimensional sets.

There is a huge difference in giving a BETTER show (evolving to give better) than evolve to CHEAPEN IT.

Exactly. When is the tipping point? If they also removed the boats to save money on maintenance and just build a path and we walk through POTC is that ok for some people? Technically, the attraction is still there.

agree with you 100%.
you're supposed to use technology to give better feelings, better experience, better services.

"Why is everyone in such an uproar over them converting Santa's reindeer?"

"Mommy, mommy...I want to go ride the diesel trains!" said no one ever.

GREAT NEWS! Space Mountain is now a SIMULATOR!

See, It's part of the magic steve. Part of the history. Try to go back and find a picture of Walt riding a diesel train. Maybe I am wrong. Maybe he was a HUGE fan of diesel.

agree on part of the history. While some things not need to change because that's how they were back then.. some things need to change to give the experience they were trying to get but couldn't before due of tech limitations.

Which is problematic in my mind ala the Target credit card fiasco.

Or Sony...

Change is inevitable. Wether it's good or bad, or u agree or not. It seems more and more lately most posters on here just simply hate anything that changes, regardless if it's positive or not. I will admit, personally, I could give a rats a$$ if a train is diesel or steam, that's just my opinion and a detail I really don't care about, it's not worth my time arguing over steam LOL ...some of u seem very upset by it. What I was simply getting at was that there are far bigger things to complain about at Disney than some silly steam...I am not someone who defends Disney in all that they do, I guess I just pick my battles more wisely than letting every little thing that happens to wdw bother me.

They could just have said "the hell with this" and convert the engines to full electrical with systems to imitate the steam and piston movement. without the weakness (or smell and smoke) of the diesel engines. hah.

I wouldn't say so.

I'd say Disney has taken away or value engineered a lot of areas of their parks that used to make them stand out above the rest of the competition. Yes, real steam is a big deal, because it's part of a bigger message that Disney truly pays attention to details. Now they are taking the details away to save a buck, or for another frivolous reason to most likely make the bottom line look better.

And in regards to change, I don't think people "hate" change. I'm pretty sure if Disney announced today that Chester and Hester's Dinorama was being demolished and a well themed Dinosaur dark ride was taking its place, people would be jumping for joy on these forums. People, including me, dislike the road Disney is taking with regard to the trains. It would probably be less of a deal if there weren't several other examples of this type of action over the last few years....it seems like cost cutting is Disney's MO now.

If the loss of the detail is seamless is it really a loss? If the engine still looks like a steam engine, and smoke still puffs out from the top, and it still goes "choo choo", does it matter whether it is running on steam or if just retains the illusion that it is? Do we care that castle isn't really made of rock, or that second story of main street isn't tall enough, or that presidents in the HoP aren't actually the resurrected bodies of dead presidents? Its all an illusion in a theme park, so if the effect is the same and they aren't actually letting guests run the engine and see the inner workings, does the fuel source really matter?

I'm not really in favor of the change. I have 3 train enthusiasts in my immediate family. They will be less impressed. But they also go to train museums and railroad excursions to get their fix of the real thing. They go to WDW for the overall illusion and fantasy. If the illusion is maintained and the downgrade isn't perceived, is it really a downgrade?

agree with you mostly.

Well good point..people like me would never know what is powering the train without being informed. Wouldn't know the trains power source was changing without forums and info being shared. Personally I think when details are altered that were part of the originality of an attraction it's kind of a sad thing and it's okay for people to express themselves about the loss. But you do have to watch it doesn't turn into pathological complaining around here I gather...

it was a loss for me, the train was still in refurb when I went.. and I really wanted to ride

But if they set it up to run on BioDiesel like Disneyland (the ultimate cost cutting measure since they can recycle their own oil for fuel) the exhaust wouldn't be an issue, would it? I'm honestly asking if anyone knows. I've always heard BioDiesel exhaust smells like French Fries (already one of the predominant smells of WDW) but I have never witnessed it firsthand.

As far as the sound goes, that just seems like a different ear piecing loud sound, but not significantly worse than the existing decibel level of the engine (which is deafening up close).

wouldn't a biodiesel engine cost more in the start and require more maintenance?

in the meantime, I apologize for the huge multipost..
I still have my permit tough...

 

[NormC]

Using oil to power steam locomotives goes back almost to the early 1900's, Union Pacific and Southern Pacific locomotives were almost entirely oil fired, So fueling a steam locomotive with oil has lots of operational history behind it.

HKDL has Diesel-Hydraulic 'steam' engines which use a small diesel engine to power a hydraulic motor, Just no where NEAR the same, A steam engine is almost alive. There was a reason they called them 'iron horses'.

Correct

 

[NormC]

Steam is still moving the train, the heat source is different and has been for a long time. It's still real steam. Even real functioning diesel driven trains use diesel engines to turn generators that run the electric motors that drive the train. If they do that... might take away some authentic, but, other wise, everyone has been riding in a diesel powered train around WDW for a long time and no one even knew it. That's why Disney never tells anyone what they are doing, everyone panics.

Correct. Very true.

 

[NormC]

Well good point..people like me would never know what is powering the train without being informed. Wouldn't know the trains power source was changing without forums and info being shared. Personally I think when details are altered that were part of the originality of an attraction it's kind of a sad thing and it's okay for people to express themselves about the loss. But you do have to watch it doesn't turn into pathological complaining around here I gather...

They are still Steam Trains. That has not changed.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Steam is still moving the train, the heat source is different and has been for a long time. It's still real steam. Even real functioning diesel driven trains use diesel engines to turn generators that run the electric motors that drive the train. If they do that... might take away some authentic, but, other wise, everyone has been riding in a diesel powered train around WDW for a long time and no one even knew it. That's why Disney never tells anyone what they are doing, everyone panics.

What are you even trying to say? The concern is with steam power being totally removed. That is very different than the faux panic you seem to suggest is occurring.

 

[Pumbas Nakasak]

. That's why Disney never tells anyone what they are doing, everyone panics.

Oh, I put their silence down to inactivity.

 

[CDavid]

Details like actual steam is what used to set Disney apart. Now people don't care, clearly.

It's worse than that. Now people don't understand why they should care.

Some clarification: Right now, the Magic Kingdom trains are authentic steam powered locomotives; They have always burned diesel for fuel at WDW, that's not a recent change, but they are not diesel powered - that is, they do not have a diesel engine "under the hood", so to speak. The locomotive is powered by a steam engine, which doesn't know or care if the fuel burned is coal, wood, oil, diesel, or something else.

What is now being proposed (as currently understood) is to build replica locomotives which are outwardly disguised to look like steam locomotives, but under the skin are actually diesel locomotives, complete with diesel engines to provide power (and presumably burning diesel as fuel, though there are a few alternatives); This is essentially the same as the locomotives used at Animal Kingdom, or smaller versions of the locomotives which power trains past all our homes across the nation (which are technically diesel-electric locomotives).

There are several ways to go about all this; In theory, you could even use a diesel engine to generate steam. The one thing all such approaches would have in common is that they would replace an authentic, antique railroad operation at Walt Disney World with an amusement park replica train ride. Even if such a move doesn't concern you, please don't tell me you can't see a difference between authentic and replica.

 

[EPCOTCenterLover]

It's worse than that. Now people don't understand why they should care.

Some clarification: Right now, the Magic Kingdom trains are authentic steam powered locomotives; They have always burned diesel for fuel at WDW, that's not a recent change, but they are not diesel powered - that is, they do not have a diesel engine "under the hood", so to speak. The locomotive is powered by a steam engine, which doesn't know or care if the fuel burned is coal, wood, oil, diesel, or something else.

What is now being proposed (as currently understood) is to build replica locomotives which are outwardly disguised to look like steam locomotives, but under the skin are actually diesel locomotives, complete with diesel engines to provide power (and presumably burning diesel as fuel, though there are a few alternatives); This is essentially the same as the locomotives used at Animal Kingdom, or smaller versions of the locomotives which power trains past all our homes across the nation (which are technically diesel-electric locomotives).

There are several ways to go about all this; In theory, you could even use a diesel engine to generate steam. The one thing all such approaches would have in common is that they would replace an authentic, antique railroad operation at Walt Disney World with an amusement park replica train ride. Even if such a move doesn't concern you, please don't tell me you can't see a difference between authentic and replica.

That's well very said.

 

[Goofyernmost]

What are you even trying to say? The concern is with steam power being totally removed. That is very different than the faux panic you seem to suggest is occurring.

OK, calm down, what is happening to the trains, which I do not know anything about, and the panic statement were not necessarily related. That was just an overstated blanket statement. Not that anyone else ever does that around here, so I am sorry for bringing it up. If we know, which I haven't seen yet, that steam will be completely eliminated and not even "magically" produced for effect, then that will be bad and sad. But, I haven't seen anything yet and we have no absolute confirmation that this is happening. Just a rumor that might be true or might not.

Even at best, and this is my opinion, which I know many of you will jump on as proof that I am an a total idiot, I can't imagine anything I care less about. A train that isn't really spewing steam, passing by horses, deer, Indians that aren't really horses, deer or Indians along with chain link fences that are real. The magic left that attraction a long time ago. Even if they had the old type trains with the sides and the window, and the seats it would mean something to reality, but, a flat platform with bench seats is hardly the days of old. In fact, it pretty much resembles the trams that brought me in from the parking lot.

 

[NormC]

Some clarification: Right now, the Magic Kingdom trains are authentic steam powered locomotives; They have always burned diesel for fuel at WDW, that's not a recent change, but they are not diesel powered - that is, they do not have a diesel engine "under the hood", so to speak. The locomotive is powered by a steam engine, which doesn't know or care if the fuel burned is coal, wood, oil, diesel, or something else.

Exactly and I wouldn't want it any other way. I don't think Walt would either. He loved trains.

 

[ParentsOf4]

TDO could spend brazillions of dollars on new attractions or parks, fix the yeti, can pandora land, cure cancer and HIV, save the endentured orcas down the road, convince the obese to walk instead of ride, ban strollers, flog bloggers, and tar and feather lifestylers, and people would find a lightbulb burned out and gripe about it.

Griping is not new.

From what I remember from my first years on what we now call the Internet, we griped a fair amount back then too.

But we also sang praises as well.

Because WDW gave us reasons to sing praises.

Many reasons.

Let's see if I can't take a stab at what were some of the things written back then.

1. "My friend told me that they're building a new roller coaster at Disney World because they are afraid attendance will drop while they are constructing E.P.C.O.T."
2. "My uncle is working EPCOT construction and says come hell or high water, they are going to open on time."
3. "Hey, I am skipping a few days of classes and heading down for the opening of EPCOT. I totally psyched!"
4. "Oh my god, you are so totally lucky."
5. "We made it to EPCOT for Christmas break. My parents loved it but my 12 year old brother thought it was boring."
6. "Body Wars is awesome!"
7. "I can't believe Disney opened a ride about sex."
8. "So glad they did away with those dumb Adventure ticket add-ons. Unlimited rides all day long. It's great! You watch; every other amusement park is going to follow them on this one."
9. "I was at the Magic Kingdom last week and noticed a park bench with chipped paint. I couldn't believe it and joked about it the rest of the day with my friends. We even took a picture. We came back the next and, wouldn't you know it, they fixed the bench so well that you couldn't even see where the chip had been. Wow, Disney World really is an amazing place."
10. "We finally got to check out that new Imagination ride they added to EPCOT. My little sister thought that character was adorable. I thought it was dumb."
11. "I was walking on Main Street USA eating an ice cream on a stick and, I swear, a cast member kept following me, waiting for me to drop it. It was kinda creepy."
12. "Eisner is a jerk. The first thing he does is raise ticket prices!"
13. "Captain EO sucks! Michael Jackson should stick to music and stay away from theme parks."
14. "Did you check out the Cast Members at the new Norway Pavilion? They are hot!"
15. "I just got back after visiting the week before Christmas and the parks were empty!"
16. "Anybody check out the new Grand Floridian yet?"
17. "Anybody check out the new Caribbean Beach Resort yet?"
18. "Disney just announced they are going to build a third theme park based on movie studios!"
19. "Oh yeah, well they're going to build a brand new water park."
20. "Oh yeah, well they're going to build a nightclub district."
21. "Oh yeah, well they're building a bunch of hotels right next to EPCOT."
22. "I thought the new Indiana Jones show was awesome. What did you think?"
23. "I thought the new Star Wars ride was better than the Indiana Jones show. What do you think?"
24. "Disney World really is a totally awesome place."

And so it went throughout the 1980s.

Two theme parks, a water park, a nighttime district, more hotels, and many new attractions.

Top-notch quality.

Reasonable prices.

Did we complain a bit at times?

Sure.

But we had plenty to be happy about too.

And if you remotely think the Walt Disney World of today is anything like the Walt Disney World of the 1970s, 1980s, or 1990s, then you simply aren't old enough to remember the differences.

Do people gripe today?

Sure.

And for good reason.

 

[Nemo14]

Griping is not new.

From what I remember from my first years on what we now call the Internet, we griped a fair amount back then too.

But we also sang praises as well.

Because WDW gave us reasons to sing praises.

Many reasons.

Let's see if I can't take a stab at what were some of the things written back then.

1. "My friend told me that they're building a new roller coaster at Disney World because they are afraid attendance will drop while they are constructing E.P.C.O.T."
2. "My uncle is working EPCOT construction and says by hell or high water, they are going to open on time."
3. "Hey, I am skipping a few days of classes and heading down for the opening of EPCOT. I totally psyched!"
4. "Oh my god, you are so totally lucky."
5. "We made it to EPCOT for Christmas break. My parents loved it but my 12 year old brother thought it was boring."
6. "Body Wars is awesome!"
7. "I can't believe Disney opened a ride about sex."
8. "So glad they did away with those dumb Adventure ticket add-ons. Unlimited rides all day long. It's great! You watch; every other amusement park is going to follow them on this one."
9. "I was at the Magic Kingdom last week and noticed a park bench with chipped paint. I couldn't believe it and joked about it the rest of the day with my friends. We even took a picture. We came back the next and, wouldn't you know it, they fixed the bench so well that you couldn't even see where the chip had been. Wow, Disney World really is an amazing place."
10. We finally got to check out that new Imagination ride they added to EPCOT. My little sister thought that character was adorable. I thought it was dumb."
11. "I was walking on Main Street USA eating an ice cream on a stick and, I swear, a cast member kept following me, waiting for me to drop it. It was kinda creepy."
12. "Eisner is a jerk. The first thing he does is raise ticket prices!"
13. "Captain EO sucks! Michael Jackson should stick to music and stay away from theme parks."
14. "Did you check out the Cast Members at the new Norway Pavilion? They are hot!"
15. "I just got back after visiting the week before Christmas and the parks were empty!"
16. "Anybody check out the new Grand Floridian yet?"
17. "Anybody check out the new Caribbean Beach Resort yet?"
18. Disney just announced they are going to build a third theme park based on movie studios!"
19. "Oh yeah, well they're going to build a brand new water park."
20. "Oh yeah, well they're going to build a nightclub district."
21. "Oh yeah, well they're building a bunch of hotels right next to EPCOT."
22. "I thought the new Indiana Jones show was awesome. What did you think?"
23. "I thought the new Star Wars ride was better than the Indiana Jones show. What do you think?"

And so it went throughout the 1980s.

Two theme parks, a water park, a nighttime district, more hotels, and many new attractions.

Top-notch quality.

Reasonable prices.

Did we complain a bit some times?

Sure.

But we had plenty to be happy about.

And if you remotely think the Walt Disney World of today is anything like the Walt Disney World of the 1970s, 1980s, or 1990s, then you simply aren't old enough to remember the differences.

Do people gripe today?

Sure.

And for good reason.

We really need a triple like button!

 

[CDavid]

Griping is not new.

From what I remember from my first years on what we now call the Internet, we griped a fair amount back then too.

But we also sang praises as well.

Because WDW gave us reasons to sing praises.

Many reasons.

Let's see if I can't take a stab at what were some of the things written back then.

1. "My friend told me that they're building a new roller coaster at Disney World because they are afraid attendance will drop while they are constructing E.P.C.O.T."
2. "My uncle is working EPCOT construction and says by hell or high water, they are going to open on time."
3. "Hey, I am skipping a few days of classes and heading down for the opening of EPCOT. I totally psyched!"
4. "Oh my god, you are so totally lucky."
5. "We made it to EPCOT for Christmas break. My parents loved it but my 12 year old brother thought it was boring."
6. "Body Wars is awesome!"
7. "I can't believe Disney opened a ride about sex."
8. "So glad they did away with those dumb Adventure ticket add-ons. Unlimited rides all day long. It's great! You watch; every other amusement park is going to follow them on this one."
9. "I was at the Magic Kingdom last week and noticed a park bench with chipped paint. I couldn't believe it and joked about it the rest of the day with my friends. We even took a picture. We came back the next and, wouldn't you know it, they fixed the bench so well that you couldn't even see where the chip had been. Wow, Disney World really is an amazing place."
10. "We finally got to check out that new Imagination ride they added to EPCOT. My little sister thought that character was adorable. I thought it was dumb."
11. "I was walking on Main Street USA eating an ice cream on a stick and, I swear, a cast member kept following me, waiting for me to drop it. It was kinda creepy."
12. "Eisner is a jerk. The first thing he does is raise ticket prices!"
13. "Captain EO sucks! Michael Jackson should stick to music and stay away from theme parks."
14. "Did you check out the Cast Members at the new Norway Pavilion? They are hot!"
15. "I just got back after visiting the week before Christmas and the parks were empty!"
16. "Anybody check out the new Grand Floridian yet?"
17. "Anybody check out the new Caribbean Beach Resort yet?"
18. "Disney just announced they are going to build a third theme park based on movie studios!"
19. "Oh yeah, well they're going to build a brand new water park."
20. "Oh yeah, well they're going to build a nightclub district."
21. "Oh yeah, well they're building a bunch of hotels right next to EPCOT."
22. "I thought the new Indiana Jones show was awesome. What did you think?"
23. "I thought the new Star Wars ride was better than the Indiana Jones show. What do you think?"
24. "Disney World really is a totally awesome place."

And so it went throughout the 1980s.

Two theme parks, a water park, a nighttime district, more hotels, and many new attractions.

Top-notch quality.

Reasonable prices.

Did we complain a bit at times?

Sure.

But we had plenty to be happy about.

And if you remotely think the Walt Disney World of today is anything like the Walt Disney World of the 1970s, 1980s, or 1990s, then you simply aren't old enough to remember the differences.

Do people gripe today?

Sure.

And for good reason.

Brilliantly stated. Where is the button for a standing ovation?

 

[spacemt354]

If the loss of the detail is seamless is it really a loss? If the engine still looks like a steam engine, and smoke still puffs out from the top, and it still goes "choo choo", does it matter whether it is running on steam or if just retains the illusion that it is? Do we care that castle isn't really made of rock, or that second story of main street isn't tall enough, or that presidents in the HoP aren't actually the resurrected bodies of dead presidents? Its all an illusion in a theme park, so if the effect is the same and they aren't actually letting guests run the engine and see the inner workings, does the fuel source really matter?

I'm not really in favor of the change. I have 3 train enthusiasts in my immediate family. They will be less impressed. But they also go to train museums and railroad excursions to get their fix of the real thing. They go to WDW for the overall illusion and fantasy. If the illusion is maintained and the downgrade isn't perceived, is it really a downgrade?

Yes I would still say it's a downgrade.

Especially since Disney advertises the "Magic Behind Our Steam Trains" tour, which shows the inner workings of real steam powered locomotives. Even if you're not a train enthusiast (I wasn't when I went on the tour) I was blown away by the attention to detail and the awesomeness of having real steam powered trains traveling around the magic kingdom.

That attention to detail, history, and story is all incorporated into the source of the fuel, and to me showed why Disney stands out from the crowd. Now it doesn't stand out as much...

 

[Animaniac93-98]

Especially since Disney advertises the "Magic Behind Our Steam Trains" tour, which shows the inner workings of real steam powered locomotives.

It would be wise for Disney to remember that there's a revenue stream attached to the fact that these are real steam trains.

Or maybe they'll just cancel the tour. One less employee expense to pay.

 

[Gomer]

Yes I would still say it's a downgrade.

Especially since Disney advertises the "Magic Behind Our Steam Trains" tour, which shows the inner workings of real steam powered locomotives. Even if you're not a train enthusiast (I wasn't when I went on the tour) I was blown away by the attention to detail and the awesomeness of having real steam powered trains traveling around the magic kingdom.

That attention to detail, history, and story is all incorporated into the source of the fuel, and to me showed why Disney stands out from the crowd. Now it doesn't stand out as much...

I'll concede that. To those who would be exposed to that sort of level of detail, this would definitely be considered a loss. Although, I would speculate some true train geeks may be just as interested in the new model as the steam version. But for the minority that do participate in the tour and aren't equally excited by the new engine, it would be a downgrade. But for most, it may go unnoticed (depending on how noticeable the change actually is).

That then begs the question is the availability of these tours important to the overall quality of WDW even if they are not widely used? And would you be better served going to a train museum for a more in depth version of the same type of tour? That then pulls in all sorts of arguments similar to the ageless debate of the worth of site seeing foreign countries through their World Showcase of DAK representatives and the like. WDW may offer watered down versions of things available with more authenticity elsewhere, but that doesn't make them not worthwhile. And just having that option there to tour the steam trains or the greenhouses at The Land, even if unused, does enrich the park experience available overall.

So, rambling self discovery completed. I'll agree. It's a downgrade, but one that may go unnoticed by most even if it does affect them in intangible ways. Is that the best battle to fight? I'm not sure. Maybe it is. Because the easiest way for Disney to "remove the magic" without consequence would be to do it where most guests won't even know its missing.

 

[wm49rs]

It would be wise for Disney to remember that there's a revenue stream attached to the fact that these are real steam trains.

Or maybe they'll just cancel the tour. One less employee expense to pay.

Don't go giving them any ideas....

 

[Animaniac93-98]

Don't go giving them any ideas....

If I can crank out an idea to "save" money* on the fly, chances are, they already have.

But if they want to pay me $100K/year to come up with ideas like replacing the fixin' bar at Pecos Bill with nothing but Ketchup packets, then maybe I should sell my soul to them!

*Note: said idea ignores whatever profit IS being made off the train tour