The Spirited Seventh Heaven ...

flynnibus

Premium Member
Correct. In July 2012, Disney shut down the MAPO division (one task of which was to create Disney's animatronics) and is apparently now fully outsourcing to Garner Holt-
http://www.burnsland.com/2012/07/the-end-of-mapo-at-disney/

I'm not sure if they even have the ability to create their own animatronics anymore without Garner's help.

Try finding a direct sourced piece on this... I don't think anyone on the outside knows truly all the details.

In 2008 a WDI memo confirmed they had formally acknowledged their shift to outsourcing production of AAs.. then in 2012 insiders expanded that by shifting all upkeep of AAs to Garner Holt.. and in doing so transfered or sold all the historic parts and tooling to GH. So basically GH was the primary for producing AAs and all the maintenance of them too. What isn't clear is how much R&D Disney continues to do on their own in the field to help drive the technology and or create specific figures. Like someone said here cited them still doing 'hero' figures, etc. Clearly Disney has gotten out of the manufacturing business and the bulk of the work of creating figures based on recent history.. but we seem to lack direct sources to say they've gotten out of the field entirely.
 

MerlinTheGoat

Well-Known Member
Try finding a direct sourced piece on this... I don't think anyone on the outside knows truly all the details.

In 2008 a WDI memo confirmed they had formally acknowledged their shift to outsourcing production of AAs.. then in 2012 insiders expanded that by shifting all upkeep of AAs to Garner Holt.. and in doing so transfered or sold all the historic parts and tooling to GH. So basically GH was the primary for producing AAs and all the maintenance of them too. What isn't clear is how much R&D Disney continues to do on their own in the field to help drive the technology and or create specific figures. Like someone said here cited them still doing 'hero' figures, etc. Clearly Disney has gotten out of the manufacturing business and the bulk of the work of creating figures based on recent history.. but we seem to lack direct sources to say they've gotten out of the field entirely.
It depends on whom you consider a legitimate direct source. There was a topic on these forums about MAPO being taken over by Garner Holt back in 2012, and the source back then was a comment by Al Lutz. I don't need to really explain that he's considered a pretty formidable and universally respected source of info in the Disney community and I would probably take his word for it.
http://forums.wdwmagic.com/threads/garner-holt-takes-over-disneys-mapo-division.841186/

Someone like WDW1974, Lee, Martin, Raven or someone probably knows more about just how involved Disney is in the AA creation process nowadays. My guess is not a lot, if any.

Anyone know whether the Seven Dwarfs Mine Train figures are Garner Holt creations? The ride was originally intended to have simple moving figures according to Lee but the ride had a fairly last minute change to include more advanced figures instead.
 

danlb_2000

Premium Member
Try finding a direct sourced piece on this... I don't think anyone on the outside knows truly all the details.

In 2008 a WDI memo confirmed they had formally acknowledged their shift to outsourcing production of AAs.. then in 2012 insiders expanded that by shifting all upkeep of AAs to Garner Holt.. and in doing so transfered or sold all the historic parts and tooling to GH. So basically GH was the primary for producing AAs and all the maintenance of them too. What isn't clear is how much R&D Disney continues to do on their own in the field to help drive the technology and or create specific figures. Like someone said here cited them still doing 'hero' figures, etc. Clearly Disney has gotten out of the manufacturing business and the bulk of the work of creating figures based on recent history.. but we seem to lack direct sources to say they've gotten out of the field entirely.

We can get some indications from their portfolio page.The show the Aerial, Eric, Sebastian and Scuttle AA's from Little Mermaid, but not the Ursula, which support what someone said earlier about that one being done by Disney.


http://www.garnerholt.com/ghp-inc/projects.aspx
 

Phil12

Well-Known Member
I think Disney has come to the realization that animatronic figures are old school and the current generation is unimpressed with such displays.
 

MerlinTheGoat

Well-Known Member
We can get some indications from their portfolio page.The show the Aerial, Eric, Sebastian and Scuttle AA's from Little Mermaid, but not the Ursula, which support what someone said earlier about that one being done by Disney.


http://www.garnerholt.com/ghp-inc/projects.aspx
The DCA version of Little Mermaid was designed and completed a year prior to MAPO being shut down. They probably also created duplicates for WDW while they were designing the original.

And incidentally, Ursula is in fact the best looking figure in the ride by far. Garner Holt aren't incapable of creating nicely designed AA's themselves (as far as i can tell they seem to have some decent artists in their ranks), but their movements have become kind of notorious for looking noticeably more stiff and jerky than Disney's own AA's. It depends though, the new Dwarf figures are again very smooth and well done if they're by GH. I'd take Garner Holt created AA's over having none at all if it were the only choice, but sadly Disney seems to be drifting away from them in favor of screens (if Ratatouille and TSMM are any indication).
 
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ParentsOf4

Well-Known Member
And thank YOU as well. Very interesting...if a little painful to read. Walt, where are you when we need you?
It's funny you mention Walt Disney. I often think of Walt Disney when I think about today's corporate stock buybacks. Under CEO Bob Iger, Disney has spent $38.3 billion (and counting) on buybacks. :(

In my opinion, stock buybacks are a major cause of today’s sluggish economy, even as the stock market booms. Stock repurchases are one of the great sins of modern corporate management.

Quoting a recent article in USA Today (I know, not the best source):

Flush with cash and a world of opportunity at their doorstep, companies have decided there's nothing more attractive than themselves. So, they're offering big money to buy back their own stock. This year, big U.S. companies have given the go-ahead for $286 billion of buybacks, up 88% from the same period last year, according to Birinyi Associates, a market research firm. If the pace continues for the rest of the year, the tally will exceed the record set in 2007.​

Just imagine what today’s economy would be like if those companies creatively invested that $286B rather than buried it in their own stocks.

Just imagine what today's WDW would be like if corporate Disney would spare a few billion for WDW. :(

There are valid reasons to repurchase stock, for example, if a stock is undervalued or to thwart hostile takeovers.

However, Disney is a blue chip stock. As such, it’s considered a safe haven and, if anything, is overvalued after the recent run-up. In addition, its market cap is so large that it’s in no fear of hostile takeover.

Companies such as Disney should be investing in growth initiatives. Build another domestic theme park. Make more movies. Diversify into another industry. These growth initiatives pump tremendous amounts of cash into the economy, resulting in a robust business environment that benefits all, especially companies with imaginative leadership able to identify these growth opportunities.

The key is to have senior executive management who understands and believes in the creative side of their company. Who view their business as an organization with an objective to grow through investment, through research & development, through innovation.

America was built on innovation.

Sadly, most senior executives manage their company’s money, not their company’s business.

Repurchasing stock inflates stock prices but does not create shareholder value. No product is created and sold. No profits are realized. Repurchasing stock essentially takes cash and buries it in the sand, dampening long-term growth. It’s good for this year’s stock price but bad for the company’s long-term future.

Disney’s senior executives should be embarrassed that they can’t figure out how to invest more intelligently.

I have no doubt that if Walt Disney were alive today, he’d have many ideas how to invest that money.

Creative corporate leadership has lots of ideas but never enough cash to realize all of them.

Dull corporate leadership has lots of cash but never enough original ideas to spend it.

And still the Yeti doesn't work. :banghead:
 
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flynnibus

Premium Member
It depends on whom you consider a legitimate direct source. There was a topic on these forums about MAPO being taken over by Garner Holt back in 2012, and the source back then was Al Lutz. He's considered a pretty formidable source in the Disney community and I would probably take his word for it.
http://forums.wdwmagic.com/threads/garner-holt-takes-over-disneys-mapo-division.841186/

The Miceage cites are vague and nearly everything you find is simply citing the editors comment. You will also note that is almost the exact time Garner Holt started writing pieces for Miceage. I don't question the validity of the 'news' - but there was and is little content on the actual arrangement or what Disney still does from a innovation or design. The news in 2012 was more about Disney closing up the MAPO shop and transfering the work and it's bits to GH. Alas due to lack of access to the dirty bits.. or due to their cozy relationships Miceage never pressed the topic further.
 

PhotoDave219

Well-Known Member
It's funny you mention Walt Disney. I often think of Walt Disney when I think about today's corporate stock buybacks. Under CEO Bob Iger, Disney has spent $38.3 billion (and counting) on buybacks. :(

In my opinion, stock buybacks are a major cause of today’s sluggish economy, even as the stock market booms. Stock repurchases are one of the great sins of modern corporate management.

Quoting a recent article in USA Today (I know, not always the best source):

Flush with cash and a world of opportunity at their doorstep, companies have decided there's nothing more attractive than themselves. So, they're offering big money to buy back their own stock. This year, big U.S. companies have given the go-ahead for $286 billion of buybacks, up 88% from the same period last year, according to Birinyi Associates, a market research firm. If the pace continues for the rest of the year, the tally will exceed the record set in 2007.​

Just imagine what today’s economy would be like if those companies creatively invested that $286B rather than buried it in their own stocks.

Just imagine what today's WDW would be like if corporate Disney would spare a few billion for WDW. :(

There are valid reasons to repurchase stock, for example, if a stock is undervalued or to thwart hostile takeovers.

However, Disney is a blue chip stock. As such, it’s considered a safe haven and, if anything, is overvalued after the recent run-up. In addition, its market cap is so large that it’s in no fear of hostile takeover.

Companies such as Disney should be investing in growth initiatives. Build another domestic theme park. Make more movies. Diversify into another industry. These growth initiatives pump tremendous amounts of cash into the economy, resulting in a robust business environment that benefits all, especially companies with imaginative leadership able to identify these growth opportunities.

The key is to have senior executive management who understands and believes in the creative side of their company. Who view their business as an organization with an objective to grow through investment, through research & development, through innovation.

America was built on innovation.

Sadly, most senior executives manage their company’s money, not their company’s business.

Repurchasing stock inflates stock prices but does not create shareholder value. No product is created and sold. No profits are realized. Repurchasing stock essentially takes cash and buries it in the sand, dampening long-term growth. It’s good for this year’s stock price but bad for the company’s long-term future.

Disney’s senior executives should be embarrassed that they can’t figure out how to invest more intelligently.

I have no doubt that if Walt Disney were alive today, he’d have many ideas how to invest that money.

Creative corporate leadership has lots of ideas but never enough cash to realize all of them.

Dull corporate leadership has lots of cash but never enough original ideas to spend it.

And still the Yeti doesn't work. :banghead:

Ok what happens to the stock price if TWDC has to buy out Euro Disney SCA?
 

BrerJon

Well-Known Member
I think Disney has come to the realization that animatronic figures are old school and the current generation is unimpressed with such displays.

The only type of displays the current generation are interested in for their rides are TV screens.
 

Phil12

Well-Known Member
The only type of displays the current generation are interested in for their rides are TV screens.
I think Disney is going to use a combination of shaped screens with holography. I think they will also use newer digital versions of the Pepper's ghost technique. Audio animatronics were amazing in the 1960's but they are now historical curiosities for the most part.
 
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MerlinTheGoat

Well-Known Member
I think Disney is going to use a combination of shaped screens with holography. Audio animatronics were amazing in the 1960's but they are now historical curiosities for the most part.

Few things to note-

- The popularity and positive reception of the Seven Dwarfs Mine Train probably indicates people are still very much interested in seeing animatronics. The figures in particular have been extremely well received, not just because of the facial expressions.

- Same can be said about the AA's used in Radiator Springs Racers, very well received and i feel entirely comfortable saying that the ride wouldn't have been as well reviewed had it just included video screens for the scenes and characters.

- Whylightbulb and WDW1974 have both stated that there are a substantial number of Universal Creative members who aren't happy that higher ups are mandating a decline in AA figures in favor of video.

- Universal fans have been extremely positive about the Gringotts goblin animatronics in the queue. On the flipside, one of the common criticisms of the attraction has been a lack of animatronics in the actual ride, being too screen heavy.

- One of the the major things James Cameron was most excited and eager to talk about in his recent teases for Avatar Land was regarding the animatronics they were working on for the Na'vi characters. He said the following about them-
"The animatronics for the Na'vi characters are gonna be fantastic. For example, their early animatronics would use 12 axis of motion and I think the most they've ever done was 32 axis recently," he recalled. "I think they're up to 64 just in the face of the Na'vi characters. So it's gonna be remarkable. [Disney] really see it as a major, major attraction."
http://forums.wdwmagic.com/threads/james-cameron-outlines-avatar-as-disney-world-attraction.884995/

I could provide more examples of positive feedback regarding modern impressive AA's, but it's pretty much complete BS to say that the interest in AA's has passed or that they're looked upon as little more than historical curiosity. If anything i'd say people are more interested in them than ever. It's not entirely unlike the creators of the new Star Wars movie insisting on using more practical effects because both they themselves AND fans are burned out on overused CGI (it's one of a great number of reasons i and many others are actually pretty excited for Episode 7).
 
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Animaniac93-98

Well-Known Member
Disney and More has an article on the meeting and current state of DLP and my response is this:

DLP needs fixing, and when I say "fixing" I mean to just about everything. Hotels, Parks, Village, additions etc, it all needs to be done. However, the resort clearly has a plan and commitment to move forward. Refurb everything, expand seasonal promotions, build new rides etc. it's all there, but what they need (and have needed for a long time) is funding and a greater push on the part of Staggs and crew to get things to move faster.

The cost of fixing DCA & HKDL, pushing MM+, building Shanghai, has basically come at the expense of DLP. Now Disney wants to fix DHS in Florida (which is great), but I'm worried that DLP could use that money more. In an ideal world everything would get done, but this is today's Disney and frankly I'd rather save DLP from falling beyond repair than have another track of TSMM and a cantina restaurant.

DLP has been at the bottom of parks and resort's list of priorities for a long time. That needs to change.
 
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BrerJon

Well-Known Member
I think Disney is going to use a combination of shaped screens with holography. I think they will also use newer digital versions of the Pepper's ghost technique. Audio animatronics were amazing in the 1960's but they are now historical curiosities for the most part.

I wonder if they'll take the same approach Universal does on Forbidden Journey... holograms for humans and minor characters, saving animatronics and large moving objects for a couple of animal creatures.
 

Phil12

Well-Known Member
Few things to note-

- The popularity and positive reception of the Seven Dwarfs Mine Train probably indicates people are still very much interested in seeing animatronics. The figures in particular have been extremely well received, not just because of the facial expressions.

- Same can be said about the AA's used in Radiator Springs Racers, very well received and i feel entirely comfortable saying that the ride wouldn't have been as well reviewed had it just included video screens for the scenes and characters.

- Whylightbulb and WDW1974 have both stated that there are a substantial number of Universal Creative members who aren't happy that higher ups are mandating a decline in AA figures in favor of video.

- Universal fans have been extremely positive about the Gringotts goblin animatronics in the queue. On the flipside, one of the common criticisms of the attraction has been a lack of animatronics in the actual ride, being too screen heavy.

- One of the the major things James Cameron was most excited and eager to talk about in his recent teases for Avatar Land was regarding the animatronics they were working on for the Na'vi characters. He said the following about them-

http://forums.wdwmagic.com/threads/james-cameron-outlines-avatar-as-disney-world-attraction.884995/

I could provide more examples of positive feedback regarding modern impressive AA's, but it's pretty much complete BS to say that the interest in AA's has passed or that they're looked upon as little more than historical curiosity. If anything i'd say people are more interested in them than ever. It's not entirely unlike the creators of the new Star Wars movie insisting on using more practical effects because both they themselves AND fans are burned out on overused CGI (one in many reasons i'm actually pretty excited for Episode 7).
You're making reference to new AA's. How about CoP and PoTC and the other old AA's? John Wayne in TGMR looks like he has stick up his back and Tarzan is just embarrassing! The problem is that AA's wear out over time. The poor AA's in CoP are just falling apart. For every good AA at Disney I can easily name 3 more that are terrible. On the other hand the singing busts in the Haunted Mansion graveyard and Little Leota look great because they are projections. All the new AA's that you mention will degrade. I know it's hard for Disney to get away from dressing a mechanical figure up in a costume since it's part of the Disney DNA.

As Disney moves more and more toward digital projections the illusions will improve. As they move into digital holography the illusions will be realistic and because they're digital they will not degrade with time. They'll be able to use actors and/or animation to create illusions that will look absolutely real and not some hokey looking 3D.

Mechanical AA's are old school. I expect Disney to keep them around just as they have old steam trains for the sake of nostalgia. Oh, and they'll keep those hokey looking 3D shows around for nostalgia as well. However, they'll keep the various Pepper's ghost illusions around because they work just as well today as when they were new!
 

RSoxNo1

Well-Known Member
I think Disney has come to the realization that animatronic figures are old school and the current generation is unimpressed with such displays.
I think the reaction to the Mine Train animatronics shows otherwise. I also think that Universal's gravitation towards exclusively screen based attractions is also starting to rub people the wrong way. A healthy mixture is what's needed.

Edit: Didn't see this post... well said:

Few things to note-

- The popularity and positive reception of the Seven Dwarfs Mine Train probably indicates people are still very much interested in seeing animatronics. The figures in particular have been extremely well received, not just because of the facial expressions.

- Same can be said about the AA's used in Radiator Springs Racers, very well received and i feel entirely comfortable saying that the ride wouldn't have been as well reviewed had it just included video screens for the scenes and characters.

- Whylightbulb and WDW1974 have both stated that there are a substantial number of Universal Creative members who aren't happy that higher ups are mandating a decline in AA figures in favor of video.

- Universal fans have been extremely positive about the Gringotts goblin animatronics in the queue. On the flipside, one of the common criticisms of the attraction has been a lack of animatronics in the actual ride, being too screen heavy.

- One of the the major things James Cameron was most excited and eager to talk about in his recent teases for Avatar Land was regarding the animatronics they were working on for the Na'vi characters. He said the following about them-

http://forums.wdwmagic.com/threads/james-cameron-outlines-avatar-as-disney-world-attraction.884995/

I could provide more examples of positive feedback regarding modern impressive AA's, but it's pretty much complete BS to say that the interest in AA's has passed or that they're looked upon as little more than historical curiosity. If anything i'd say people are more interested in them than ever. It's not entirely unlike the creators of the new Star Wars movie insisting on using more practical effects because both they themselves AND fans are burned out on overused CGI (one in many reasons i'm actually pretty excited for Episode 7).
 

MerlinTheGoat

Well-Known Member
@Phil12 You made no such distinction between new and old AA's, all you said in your previous post was that AA's were outdated and a historical curiosity. There are always newer better ones being created though, WDI had an impressive Lincoln face on display at the 2013 D23 with an incredible range of motion. And the new ones mentioned by Cameron for the Na'vi. I do support upgrading older animatronics as better ones come along, they did so in Spaceship Earth from 2007 and the results are quite awesome (poor narration and empty descent disregarded, the upgraded animatronics were one element of the refurb that no one is unhappy with).

I doubt Disneyland fans for instance would be happy if Disney removed the Lincoln animatronic and replaced it with a film with a live (or worse, CGI) actor reciting lines to the audience. Even if the projection was super high resolution digital that never degraded.

I've yet to see a video that can even come close to convincing me that it's physically there, even the highest quality 3D digital projection that is super well implemented into physical scenery. Old school animatronics may have limited motion compared to newer ones, but they have no trouble convincing you that they're physically present because they are (and new animatronics are always making strides in becoming more realistic in their motion and detail). Sometimes an old fashioned way of doing something actually produces better results than the latest and greatest new technology. People are still fascinated with robotics, more than ever i'd say. Videos have their place, but it's not to replace robotic figures in everything. My favorite use of projections has been digital mapping used in some of the classic Disneyland rides (Snow White for instance as well as the recent upgrades to Big Thunder are fantastic).
 
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Mike S

Well-Known Member
@Phil12 You made no such distinction between new and old AA's, all you said in your previous post was that AA's were outdated and a historical curiosity. There are always newer better ones being created though, WDI had an impressive Lincoln face on display at the 2013 D23 with an incredible range of motion. And the new ones mentioned by Cameron for the Na'vi. I do support upgrading older animatronics as better ones come along, they did so in Spaceship Earth from 2007 and the results are quite awesome (poor narration and empty descent disregarded, the upgraded animatronics were one element of the refurb that no one is unhappy with).

I doubt Disneyland fans for instance would be happy if Disney removed the Lincoln animatronic and replaced it with a film with a live (or worse, CGI) actor reciting lines to the audience. Even if the projection was super high resolution digital that never degraded.

I've yet to see a video that can even come close to convincing me that it's physically there, even the highest quality 3D digital projection that is super well implemented into physical scenery. Old school animatronics may have limited motion compared to newer ones, but they have no trouble convincing you that they're physically present because they are (and new animatronics are always making strides in becoming more realistic in their motion and detail). Sometimes an old fashioned way of doing something actually produces better results than the latest and greatest new technology. People are still fascinated with robotics, more than ever i'd say. Videos have their place, but it's not to replace robotic figures in everything. My favorite use of projections has been digital mapping used in some of the classic Disneyland rides (Snow White for instance as well as the recent upgrades to Big Thunder are fantastic).
As an example a super realistic projection of King Kong would have nothing on an advanced AA. I still say Gringotts is very well done and the 3D is some of the best I've seen but it would've been awesome to have that Dragon as an animatronic. The ride is still great, but it would've been even better.
 

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