The Spirited Seventh Heaven ...

[spacemt354]

Can someone more familiar with the timelines than me explain what else was drawing the crowds when they weren't going to Horizons anymore? Soarin and Test Track weren't open then, and while I don't doubt for a second that Horizons was often empty - it was an amazing ride, but dated by the end - I can't think what else the guests would be doing instead before the E-tickets opened to make them skip such a great attraction.

Just speculating but possibly body wars? Newly updated (at that time) universe of energy? Honey I shrunk the audience?

I feel like it was the stagnation that forced horizons and WoM to meet their demise. Plus the desire for thrills in the park. Both MGM and magic kingdom offered multiple thrill rides in the mid 90s. The closest thing Epcot had was body wars or maelstrom.

 

[tirian]

Horizons, WoM and Journey into Imagination did draw big crowds for the first 13 years of their existence. However, when the boredom factor hit, it hit them hard and most repeat guests avoided those attractions. Disney learned their lesson that too many Omnimovers in close proximity is not a good thing.

Attractions should have been added. There's the "blessing of size." (And fwiw, I prefer Test Track over WoM.)

 

[BrerJon]

Just speculating but possibly body wars? Newly updated (at that time) universe of energy? Honey I shrunk the audience?

I feel like it was the stagnation that forced horizons and WoM to meet their demise. Plus the desire for thrills in the park. Both MGM and magic kingdom offered multiple thrill rides in the mid 90s. The closest thing Epcot had was body wars or maelstrom.

I wonder if it was partly vacation length taking a while to catch up with the amount of things to do. Within the few years before Horizons shut you had Animal Kingdom opening, plus Rock 'n' Roller coaster and Tower of Terror at MGM, as well as Islands of Adventure... that's a lot of new stuff to pull people away from their vacation, and the first thing that will go is a ride you've already done before.

A few years on, people know to factor in an extra day for Uni, an extra day for DAK, but in the first couple of years this might have been more of a shock, hence the sudden drop in attendance for the Epcot rides.

 

[wdwfan4ver]

Can someone more familiar with the timelines than me explain what else was drawing the crowds when they weren't going to Horizons anymore? Soarin and Test Track weren't open then, and while I don't doubt for a second that Horizons was often empty - it was an amazing ride, but dated by the end - I can't think what else the guests would be doing instead before the E-tickets opened to make them skip such a great attraction.

I went to WDW 3 times from 1991 to 1999 once in 1997.

Based on what I remembered in 1997, Honey, I shrunk the Audience was very popular at the time. The same thing was true with the Ellen version of Universe of Energy. I recalled Imagination wasn't as popular as those two attractions at the time. Imagination was more popular in the early 1990's.

 

[misterID]

I was just going to post this well this ends the rasulo or Staggs debate for another few years

I'll take Staggs over Rasulo any day. But it's a shame those are the two choices. Spirit was pretty clear it wouldn't be Staggs.

 

[BrerJon]

Based on what I remembered in 1997, Honey, I shrunk the Audience was very popular at the time. The same thing was true with the Ellen version of Universe of Energy. I recalled Imagination wasn't as popular as those two attractions at the time. Imagination was more popular in the early 1990's.

Thanks, that's interesting. I got to go in the early 90s when EPCOT Center was in its prime, but I didn't visit again until the mid 2000s when things had declined and my favourite rides had shuttered, so I'm a bit hazy on the details of what happened in the meantime.

 

[misterID]

They grew very boring and unpopular. It had nothing to high capacity. GM got rid of WoM because it no longer attracted an audience. GE bailed on Horizons due to low attendance. Kodak demanded an update to Journey Into Imagination due to low attendance. Both GM and Kodak would have pulled their sponsorships without major changes. Had Horizons still been able to draw a decent audience, GE would have stayed on as a sponsor as well. There is nothing erroneous about those attractions being unpopular toward their respective ends.

In their late stages it was easy to go on any of those attractions and be the only person on the ride from start to finish.

Do you know how many sponsors Space Mountain has had? A lot. It doesn't mean it's unpopular because it can't keep a sponsor. It's par for the course, outside GM, sponsors don't stick around very long. Not really true about Horizons, which was due a major refurb and was going to get it. Horizons was replaced because of many things, not the least of which was sabotage -- I know that for a fact. But not having a sponsor was the nail in the coffin, and M:S had a sponsor lined up also.

Kodak left because Kodak isn't Kodak anymore. And the original WAS popular, and more popular than its replacement.

You're right, they needed refurbs... but not replacements.

 

[misterID]

Rasulo and likely Staggs will leave within the next 12 months. They've both effectively been passed over for promotion and it's hard to imagine either of them getting the top job now. They'll both be looking for other opportunities.

There's no way Rasulo would leave Disney. He knows where his bread is buttered. Outside Glendale/Burbank can get awfully cold without your cushy connections.

 

[Mike S]

Just speculating but possibly body wars? Newly updated (at that time) universe of energy? Honey I shrunk the audience?

I feel like it was the stagnation that forced horizons and WoM to meet their demise. Plus the desire for thrills in the park. Both MGM and magic kingdom offered multiple thrill rides in the mid 90s. The closest thing Epcot had was body wars or maelstrom.

All the old rides should've gotten updates. Mission Space has really dropped off in popularity so maybe it would've been best to just update Horizons in the long run. Probably would've been cheaper too. Test Track vs. WoM is a toss up for me. I think it would be best if in a future update (and I mean WAY in the future) they brought back elements of WoM and made the interior a dark ride like JTTCOTE and RSR while keeping the outside high speed loop. Imagination should've gotten a much better update from the get go, there's really no excuse for that one.

Edit: WoL should have just stayed open. Period. Imagine if Body Wars got the same kind of update Star Tours got. Sure the more crisp 3D HD visuals of the interior of the human body could've grossed out some people, but man would it have been cool.

 

[GoofGoof]

I wonder if it was partly vacation length taking a while to catch up with the amount of things to do. Within the few years before Horizons shut you had Animal Kingdom opening, plus Rock 'n' Roller coaster and Tower of Terror at MGM, as well as Islands of Adventure... that's a lot of new stuff to pull people away from their vacation, and the first thing that will go is a ride you've already done before.

A few years on, people know to factor in an extra day for Uni, an extra day for DAK, but in the first couple of years this might have been more of a shock, hence the sudden drop in attendance for the Epcot rides.

This was probably a big factor. Having more to do is a blessing and a curse. I think maybe that is why Disney is planning this DHS reboot around the same time as Avland and nighttime stuff at AK. I wonder what happens to EPCOT when everyone's attention gets pulled between DHS and AK in 2020.

The knee jerk reaction was that push for thrill rides that was IMHO misguided to some extent (although TOT is one of the best rides in the world still to this day so I guess it wasn't all bad).

 

[BrerJon]

All the old rides should've gotten updates. Mission Space has really dropped off in popularity so maybe it would've been best to just update Horizons in the long run. Probably would've been cheaper too. Test Track vs. WoM is a toss up for me. I think it would be best if in a future update (and I mean WAY in the future) they brought back elements of WoM and made the interior a dark ride like JTTCOTE and RSR while keeping the outside high speed loop. Imagination should've gotten a much better update from the get go, there's really no excuse for that one.

A great refresh would have kept Horizons going for years, and ironically Fastpass+ would have given it a new surge of interest. There's no way Horizons would have closed if it had been at Magic Kingdom, and I could see them closing down Pirates of the Caribbean in a similar fashion had that been at Epcot instead.

 

[Mike S]

A great refresh would have kept Horizons going for years, and ironically Fastpass+ would have given it a new surge of interest. There's no way Horizons would have closed if it had been at Magic Kingdom, and I could see them closing down Pirates of the Caribbean in a similar fashion had that been at Epcot instead.

I've edited my post to include my thoughts on Wonders of Life as well.

 

[flynnibus]

This is entirely the opposite to current Disney strategy. The whole point of Fastpass+ and MyMagic was to minimise, or even eliminate, time spent in lines. When guests were asked 'would you spend more in shops and restaurants if you spent less time in line' the answer was a resounding yes, so Disney knows short waits = more money spent on merch.

FP didn't eliminate waits - just changes where you wait. The point being is waits help make experiencing attractions take up more of your day. If every attraction were only 5mins long to experience... guests would demand a part have 200 attractions. Obviously that isn't feasible

 

[wdwfan4ver]

This was probably a big factor. Having more to do is a blessing and a curse. I think maybe that is why Disney is planning this DHS reboot around the same time as Avland and nighttime stuff at AK. I wonder what happens to EPCOT when everyone's attention gets pulled between DHS and AK in 2020.

The knee jerk reaction was that push for thrill rides that was IMHO misguided to some extent (although TOT is one of the best rides in the world still to this day so I guess it wasn't all bad).

I don't think was misguided to some extent at the time.

I am saying because the closest theme park to me was a six flags and it was popular when I grow up in terms of my age group as teenagers although always like WDW better than six flags as a person who never was much of a thrill junkie.

In my senior year in High School, Senior Skip day happened 3 times all through I didn't skip school any of the 3 times other seniors did. All three times, the seniors went to Six flags matter of fact for thrill rides. That shows how much teenagers love thrill rides despite how misguided the teens were.

The fact is Disney need edto cater to teenagers or kids getting closer to their teenage years.

The other thing is when my mom won a Mother's Day drawing on the Radio going to WDW for a family of 4 when I was a 6th student, I recalled a lot of my classmates at the time told me Six Flags was cool and WDW was lame basically. This happened back in the early 1990's when WDW only had Body Wars, Space Mountain, Big Thunder Mountain, Star Tours as thrill rides unless you count the drop in Maelstrom. Yes, I went WDW before Splash Mountain was opened.

The fact 6 graders made that statement proved that Disney didn't do enough for that age group at the time although I ended liking WDW on my trip there with being first time ever at WDW.

Disney's problem with thrill rides actually was not going enough balance out it out in terms of DHS and not filling out AK and DHS enough in terms of balancing thing up for rides.

 

[Phil12]

A great refresh would have kept Horizons going for years, and ironically Fastpass+ would have given it a new surge of interest. There's no way Horizons would have closed if it had been at Magic Kingdom, and I could see them closing down Pirates of the Caribbean in a similar fashion had that been at Epcot instead.

Even with a refresh of Horizons I don't think it would have survived. The reason is simple. It was about the future and their speculation about the future was dead wrong. As the attraction got older it became more of a joke and few people took it seriously. It started to look silly.

One of the reasons why SSE continues to be popular is because it predominately deals with history as does the American Adventure. People like history lessons. I know that I thank the Phoenicians almost every day.

 

[Mike S]

Even with a refresh of Horizons I don't think it would have survived. The reason is simple. It was about the future and their speculation about the future was dead wrong. As the attraction got older it became more of a joke and few people took it seriously. It started to look silly.

One of the reasons why SSE continues to be popular is because it predominately deals with history as does the American Adventure. People like history lessons. I know that I thank the Phoenicians almost every day.

They really were dead wrong about the future. They showed amazing things but instead we're heading in the complete opposite direction. Have you seen the movie Idiocracy by any chance?

 

[misterID]

Even with a refresh of Horizons I don't think it would have survived. The reason is simple. It was about the future and their speculation about the future was dead wrong. As the attraction got older it became more of a joke and few people took it seriously. It started to look silly.

One of the reasons why SSE continues to be popular is because it predominately deals with history as does the American Adventure. People like history lessons. I know that I thank the Phoenicians almost every day.

Horizons didn't just deal with the future but technology, which is still relevant. It also had a great opening about the predicted future from the past. Their future speculation was not dead wrong, but is still trying to be reached. Richard Branson and Virgin would have been the perfect sponsor as the ride touches on everything Branson is investing in, including underwater living... We are not living in space. Nor are we living in underwater cities. The predicted future was not wrong, but very much correct as we're just now scratching the surface of bringing these things to reality with commercial space travel and living and working in space.

A Horizons in space attraction would be incredible, with a more interactive experience and 3D elements in those giant IMAX screens could have been fantastic.

 

[GoofGoof]

I don't think was misguided to some extent at the time.

I am saying because the closest theme park to me was a six flags and it was popular when I grow up in terms of my age group as teenagers although always like WDW better than six flags as a person who never was much of a thrill junkie.

In my senior year in High School, Senior Skip day happened 3 times all through I didn't skip school. All three times, the seniors went to Six flags. I think that speaks how popular thrill rides was although I still think the students were misguided at the time.

The fact is Disney wanted to target more teenagers to cater people like the students that skipped school 3 times in a school year for six flags or kids who are 11 or 12 years old back in the 1990's.

The other thing is when my mom won a Mother's Day drawing on the Radio going to WDW for a family of 4 when I was a 6th student, I recalled a lot of my classmates at the time told me Six Flags was better and WDW was lame. This happened back in the early 1990's when WDW only had Body Wars, Space Mountain, Big Thunder Mountain, Star Tours as thrill rides unless you count the drop in Maelstrom. Yes, I went WDW before Splash Mountain was opened. T

The fact 6 graders made that statement proved that Disney didn't do enough for that age group at the time although I ended liking WDW on my trip there with being first time ever at WDW.

Disney's problem with thrill rides actually was not going enough balance out it out in terms of DHS and not filling out AK and DHS enough in terms of balancing thing up for rides.

Here's my reason for saying misguided. Disney can never build Six Flags style thrill rides. How many teenagers changed their minds and said WDW was cool after adding a few thrill rides? My guess is not many. Adding RNRC, ToT, Test Track and later Mission Space doesn't come close to competing with Six Flags on thrills. A 5th gate which was a pure coaster park could have competed, but Disney was never going to do that.

Replacing classic omni-mover style dark rides to attempt to attract teenagers was misguided. Kids who thought Six Flags was much better than WDW aren't going to change their mind over a few thrill rides which in the world of thrill junkies are still pretty tame. It would be like Six Flags replacing a few mega coasters with a some dark rides. Having one or 2 dark rides wouldn't attract people who don't generally like coasters and thrill rides to want to visit the park.

There are plenty of teenagers and young adults that appreciated WDW for what it was and still do. You can't please everyone all of the time.

 

[Nubs70]

They really were dead wrong about the future. They showed amazing things but instead we're heading in the complete opposite direction. Have you see the movie Idiocracy by any chance?

Yes, yes I have

 

[BrerJon]

Horizons didn't just deal with the future but technology, which is still relevant. It also had a great opening about the predicted future from the past. Their future speculation was not dead wrong, but is still trying to be reached. Richard Branson and Virgin would have been the perfect sponsor as the ride touches on everything Branson is investing in, including underwater living... We are not living in space. Nor are we living in underwater cities. The predicted future was not wrong, but very much correct as we're just now scratching the surface of bringing these things to reality with commercial space travel and living and working in space.

I think what they should have done is firmed up the final scene of Carousel of Progress to set it definitively in the 1980s or 90s, with computers in every home, and TVs with hundreds of channels, instead of the vague attempt to make it 'current' we have now, with a final scene that was supposed to not date easily. They shouldn't have been scared of the last scene looking old, but instead made the ride a definitive tale of the progress of the twentieth century.

Then you go over to Horizons, which should take the story to the future and be an epic, optimistic vision of possible futures, but shouldn't be like the videos at the end of SSE, where half the stuff they talk about we already have, and shouldn't touch near future things like virtual reality, video phones or hypersonic planes, but focus on big picture blue sky stuff, like cities on Mars, colonies under the sea, space commuting... really big stuff with a scientific basis that could happen but isn't likely to in our lifetimes, so nobody could ever say 'been there, done that'.