The Spirited Seventh Heaven ...

[misterID]

My point is that until you go on it you don't know. New people, never having been there, would go to the attraction not aware of it's popularity and decide for themselves what they consider quality. You may not like Small World, but, it is still incredibly popular. No one persons taste can or should decide what others consider quality. You like Splash Mountain, many don't like high drop log rides. That isn't quality to them it's fear and misery.

Anyway to get back to the point I was trying to make. As soon as you put a FP label on any ride, if you haven't seen it yet, you identify with it being a busy, quality attraction. If you don't highlight it as such then you have people trying other things thus distributing the load around lessening the length of all normally extremely busy rides. Next time around they will know better... but not the first time.

On the tracking aspect, now Disney can tell or care what an individuals profile is by them walking past a check point? As a group, yes, it does behoove them to know where the crowds are heading, but, to do that on an individual basis would take a literal army of people to sort out the information. The big brother stuff is just total unnecessary paranoia. Not to mention the fact that before MM+ you were watched via camera. Your real person seen, not a random radio signal. That was way more big brother then this is.

I don't deny that Disney had some type of voodoo thought in mind when they came up with the argument that the band was going to increase sales. They must have been thinking the everyone that went there had absolutely no self control, spending wise and could be talked into buying anything regardless of their ability to pay for it. That sounds more like an argument to convince Wall Street that it could be done by presenting it to folks that have absolutely no knowledge of human behavior and theme park mentality. But the thought of a profit appealed to them even if they didn't understand how it would work exactly.

I understand what you're saying, but you're not taking into account the research people put into their vacation, even now, looking at websites devoted to this (who will actually tell you what rides to get FP for), describing the rides and even watching them on youtube. But even discounting that, kids and adults will look at the basic descriptions and that will determine what they're going to schedule a fastpass for. And if Disney tried to market IASW on the same level as SM (or Speedway like Haunted Mansion) they would be lying. It's the reason they invented the class level (E, D, C) because there is a difference.

As for MM+, I actually like it in theory, I don't understand the mammoth investment in it, compared to what they could and really, should have invested that money in, but again, that goes back to how differently they view DLR to WDW. And it won't take much really, considering the tech and what they've invested in it, to profile returning guests (still a huge slice of WDW visitors, btw) as to where they stay, what they buy, what their habits are... I'm not sure I like the idea of where that could be headed. That's just me, being more concerned with the corporate mindset than paranoia of what they're plotting with that information.

 

[Goofyernmost]

I understand what you're saying, but you're not taking into account the research people put into their vacation, even now, looking at websites devoted to this (who will actually tell you what rides to get FP for), describing the rides and even watching them on youtube. But even discounting that, kids and adults will look at the basic descriptions and that will determine what they're going to schedule a fastpass for. And if Disney tried to market IASW on the same level as SM (or Speedway like Haunted Mansion) they would be lying. It's the reason they invented the class level (E, D, C) because there is a difference.

It won't take much really, with what they've invested in, to profile returning guests (still a huge slice of WDW visitors, btw) as to where they stay, what they buy, what their habits are... I'm not sure I like the idea of where that could be headed. That's just me, being more concerned with the corporate mindset than paranoia of what they're plotting with that information.

I understand that many people put a lot of research into there WDW vacation. I also understand that the majority of first timers do not know what is necessary unless someone tells them about it. If no "flag" were put out on attractions and everything were treated as equals, they wouldn't know.

I also think that we are over-estimating how many people actually have a thought that research is necessary to go to a theme park. At least not to the degree you are talking about. You are correct they did the E,D,C ticket because there was a difference, but, it was also tied in with onsite sales. You got them in with a general ticket and then tried to utilize the "difference" to increase revenue. Now, and I cannot say this enough, there is no E,D,C or whatever, tickets sold separately anymore. It is a dinosaur of the past and no longer applies in any sense to an attraction. You pay for one ticket and after that the sky is the limit. Whatever you can get into you can go to and the, so called, poor ones are there for a reason and that is to get people to be some other place. That is the same reason why they are now offering FP's at places that have never needed them before and that is to control, as much as possible, where people are and not necessarily what they are focused on. That is especially useful on people that have never been there before.

And based on popularity, remember that the Tiki Room, Small World and others that are now considered boring and nowhere near "quality" rides as defined today, were once E ticket rides. So, classifying them as A through E tickets back when was just as much a lie as marketing all of them as equal. And in reality to many they are more then equal based on their personal likes and dislikes. Just like how you make your decisions on what is good or what is not worth it. Personal opinion!

 

[misterID]

I understand that many people put a lot of research into there WDW vacation. I also understand that the majority of first timers do not know what is necessary unless someone tells them about it. If no "flag" were put out on attractions and everything were treated as equals, they wouldn't know.

I also think that we are over-estimating how many people actually have a thought that research is necessary to go to a theme park. At least not to the degree you are talking about. You are correct they did the E,D,C ticket because there was a difference, but, it was also tied in with onsite sales. You got them in with a general ticket and then tried to utilize the "difference" to increase revenue. Now, and I cannot say this enough, there is no E,D,C or whatever, tickets sold separately anymore. It is a dinosaur of the past and no longer applies in any sense to an attraction. You pay for one ticket and after that the sky is the limit. Whatever you can get into you can go to and the, so called, poor ones are there for a reason and that is to get people to be some other place. That is the same reason why they are now offering FP's at places that have never needed them before and that is to control, as much as possible, where people are and not necessarily what they are focused on. That is especially useful on people that have never been there before.

And based on popularity, remember that the Tiki Room, Small World and others that are now considered boring and nowhere near "quality" rides as defined today, were once E ticket rides.

I don't buy it. There's a real difference in attractions and there's no point in trying to hide it. And I would surmise that there's a real small minority who go into WDW blind with no idea about the attractions. I would even guess if they did go by your way there wouldn't be any significant difference, outside an increase in angry guests complaints about wasting fastpasses and time.

 

[dhall]

Do you really think you were the only one who could see that this was a boondoggle from the very beginning? I think 98% of this board thought the same exact thing.

Not quite sure why you're doing the "I told you so" bit.

There was quite a lot of discussion between those who believed that it could not possibly work, or could not possibly have any benefit to guests, and others who believed that it could but were somewhat skeptical that current management would use it that way. I remember being one that defended the technology, but pointing out that one of the major problems with the program was that we (the public) knew anything about it, let alone being somewhat expected to participate in it.

 

[AEfx]

IMHO Splash Mountain is the best attraction in Orlando, nothing touches it.

Look, @marni1971! Even Mr. Pixie Dust has to admit that Disney hasn't built a real E-ticket in several decades...

 

[CDavid]

I actually love Fastpass+. It is a much more relaxing way to see the park than the original Fastpass was.

Have to agree with that. It was much nicer then having to run down FP's every few hours.

That's a fair opinion, but FastPass+ is only one component of the entire NGE debacle, and could have been implemented without the $2 billion investment. You cannot judge the initiative a success based on a single aspect. Not having to walk all over the park collecting FP's just to return later is nice, but the steep learning curve and hilariously overcomplicated level of planning involved beg solutions to problems which never previously existed.

Yes, there were many MyMagic+ naysayers from the beginning. However, it also had its supporters. I don't interpret the @WDW1974 "I told you so" post as an attempt to claim exclusive rights as MyMagic+'s sole detractor. Instead, I find his post to be a taunt aimed at those who defended it.

Since it's an interesting topic, I accept the challenge of defending MyMagic+ financially. (Please, don't drag me into yet another discussion of its technical merits. )

It's premature to declare MyMagic+ a financial failure. I believe we need to watch the next 2 to 3 quarters to see how it plays out.

My interpretation of data thus far is that MyMagic+ did result in a significant bump in hotel occupancy when it was an onsite-only perk. See my post here.

Since then, Disney has distributed MyMagic+ to offsite guests. As a result, the WDW hotel occupancy rate returned to normal levels last quarter (Q3). Some numbers:

Disney 2013Q2 domestic occupancy: 80%
Disney 2014Q2 domestic occupancy: 86%

Disney 2013Q3 domestic occupancy: 79%
Disney 2014Q3 domestic occupancy: 82%

(Note that these fiscal quarters correspond to the first half of the year, January to the end of June.)

For comparison, I quote from an August 3, 2014 article in the Orlando Sentinel:

"So far this year, occupancy rates have averaged almost 77 percent, up 4 percentage points from the first half of 2013, according to Visit Orlando. The agency said recent data also suggests that advance bookings for the back half of the year are running almost 5 percent ahead of this time last year."​

(Note that Visit Orlando's numbers exclude WDW.)

WDW's huge Q2 bump of 6% is without precedent in the history of that resort.

WDW's smaller Q3 bump of 3% is actually below the Orlando area increase.

In Q2, WDW "guests" caught wind of some kind of new onsite-only benefit. Even if they didn't fully understand it, they wanted it. In Q3, this once exclusive onsite perk was unveiled to the general public, resulting in declining quarter-to-quarter occupancy.

Even more idiotic, Disney decided to sell MagicBands to offsite guests for a pittance. What once might have been viewed as an exclusive (OK, snooty) mark of distinction for onsite guests quickly devolved into cheap rubber jewelry.

Corporate Disney has mishandled MyMagic+ badly but, with the right strategy, MyMagic+ could have been a financial success.

I'm not sure I can agree that MM+ could have ever been a financial success, at anything approaching the levels (11%) promised, and the ultimate $2 billion price tag largely overshadows what limited benefits were achieved. Disney has relied on price increases alone to achieve much of the growth in guest spending, and those are of course obtainable without the NGE investment (though future price increases promise ever diminishing returns, at best, as people are squeezed or priced out).

Even if MyMagic+ was seen as an on-site benefit and temporarily drove resort occupancy, the question remains whether this was sustainable. Guests would be paying a steep premium to wear colored bracelets and make advance FP reservations, the most apparent impacts to guests of the MM+ program, but neither was really an amenity people had been crying out for.

Before we credit MM+, are there any other readily apparent explanations for the second quarter bump in hotel occupancy? MyMagic+ probably played a role, but Orlando occupancy numbers have been up this year as well.

Don't lose sight of the fact that to someone that has never been to WDW they are all high quality attractions.

Even a first-time guest, with little advance knowledge of Walt Disney World and no advance planning, will readily distinguish the differences in scale, quality, and presentation between the park's best and classic experiences (Haunted Mansion, Pirates) and some of its failures (Stitch, the current Journey into Imagination). With even a minimum of initial research, the differences will also stand out. Everything is hardly a "high quality attraction", and being labeled with FP+ will not make it so. The NGE program has been accused of relying on the guests' being dense and gullible to achieve its objectives (spending with bracelets, etc.), but people are not so easily fooled (and do not take kindly to being duped).

And based on popularity, remember that the Tiki Room, Small World and others that are now considered boring and nowhere near "quality" rides as defined today, were once E ticket rides. So, classifying them as A through E tickets back when was just as much a lie as marketing all of them as equal. And in reality to many they are more then equal based on their personal likes and dislikes. Just like how you make your decisions on what is good or what is not worth it. Personal opinion!

Personal opinion does not determine which attractions are quality experiences; This must (and can) be evaluated objectively. Every ride ever built is probably somebody's favorite, but that opinion doesn't elevate the attraction's stature. Experiences can indeed be classified in an honest, reliable, and valid manner which describes to guests the scope and scale of the experience.

 

[WDW1974]

Spirited Labor Day Weekend Quickees:

There are advantages to having a very long distance relationship. Who knew that one was the ability to end a very late night call and look at MAGIC and watch some loser troll likely drunk posting up a storm using naughty words and begging to be banned for reasons unclear to me? And someone who joins the site in 2003?!! Yes, people are crazy.

Just to be clear as I peaked ahead and saw some drama, but I am in no way saying I was the only naysayer of NGE. But it sure seemed that we had some out and proud supporters along with many 'wait and see-ers' and yes, I was poking to see if anyone wanted to defend Disney at this point in time. I wanted to provoke discussion as there's only so much energy I have for defending the Big Bang Theory!

Also, I don't have an opinion on Gringotts yet because I haven't ridden (it's on my fall agenda) it, but I am curious now that we're around the date it should have been opened and is much more reliable. What I have heard from folks in the business whose opinions I respect greatly has largely been good (but not great ... what has been great are the reviews of Diagon Alley as a whole).

Anyone here going to Mickey's Blatent We Know It's Not Halloween Yet, But Really We'd Start These Parties On August 1st If We Could Pretty Scary Money Grab on Monday night?

So, worst summer at the box office since 1997 (hey, I know I saw Hercules that summer!) is coming to a close. And you'll hear gloom and doom all the way until next summer which will be one of the biggest in history.

BTW, top three domestic films were: Guardians of Galaxy, Transformers and Maleficent.

Speaking of films, I saw Robin Williams in Angriest Man in Brooklyn over the weekend and ... it wasn't that good. Would have been better if they actually added 30-60 minutes to it and gave added depth to the characters. The fact that I enjoyed it at all is likely due to Robin's talents. But it was eerie watching a film about his character dying and attempting to kill himself by jumping off the Brooklyn Bridge. I remember reading a story when it came out that he and Mila Kunis actually filmed in the river and ... yuck!

Wonder what crowds are like at the O-Town parks this weekend. I've never been much of a Labor Day Weekend at the parks Spirit. I think I have been up there twice over this weekend and both were when I was under 18.

Someone told me that for Sea World ''it was like summer never happened' this year. Very sad.

SNL is going to be strange without Don Pardo's booming voice forever more.

Don't forget that Tuesday night is the Frozen Melted special on ABC where in all likelihood you'll hear a few tidbits about the 'new' WDW attraction and the Broadway production.

I still can't believe they killed Pancho. ... Just a question for you folks, but if you have one dog get snacked on by a crocodile do you do something to prevent that from ever happening again or do you let the croc feed on three other of your dogs instead?

Nice win for FSU last night considering they didn't play very well!

On three ... we loves Dizzy World!!!! Dizzy World Rulez!!!!

OK, put your screens down and get those BBQs fired up!

 

[WDW1974]

At some point, surely, analysts will start hammering Iger and Rasulo about the lack of any revenue growth attributable to MM+, right?

They have been for two years now.

You can feel the desperation every time the DPB announces another upcharge event.

Tip to all those who feel special by PAYING extra: the true special folks are smart enough to realize you don't pay anything for extras.

 

[WDW1974]

Additional Musing:

Do you think Luvable Lou Mongello will ever mention Tony Baxter's name after his giddy response to Diagon Alley this weekend?

 

[Darth Sidious]

http://www.businessweek.com/article...-than-nbc-cbs-and-fox?campaign_id=ticker_feed

 

[WDW1974]

While I'm not defending TWDC against any of your concerns, I can say that I've never repeatedly had such demoralizing service as I have received recently from Comcast, all while trying to throw money at them to activate service. Comcast is letting their core business suffer so they can build shiny new attractions at Uni and play as a movie studio.

So while the leadership at Universal's parks is doing well, the overall at Comcast is a distracted mess. And this will likely get worse with TWC integration before it gets any better. Let's not compare TWDC to Comcast unless you are comparing the companies in their entirety. Lionizing Comcast because they built a nice land at a theme park is foolish when their fundamentals look far more scary than WDW's hotel occupancy. Apples to apples. Not the oranges you like vs the apples you don't.

Very salient point. ... I am not comparing the company's straight up for the purpose of this discussion. I am comparing how they are running their respective parks and resorts divisions. That is the definition of a very fair apples to apples comparison!

I am not a Comcast customer as far as cable/net provider so I can't comment on what kind of product they offer. I know that many, many, many folks have issues with them ... and I'm not a mindless UNI fanboi, so I can love something the company does at UNI-O-Town while ripping other aspects of the larger business.

I'm not quite sure what you are getting at about Comcast's fundamentals as the company is quite healthy, though.

 

[WDW1974]

@WDW1974 What extra two units are being built for Disneyland's Paint the Night clone? I also heard that they're converting a few old Jubilation floats into nighttime parade floats. I do know that there have been some pieces of that parade spotted at DL.

I am not 100% positive, but I believe one is based on Princess Tangled and the other is a Pixar property ... but that's just a thought off a memory that isn't quite sure right now!

 

[Ignohippo]

Yes, there were many MyMagic+ naysayers from the beginning. However, it also had its supporters. I don't interpret the @WDW1974 "I told you so" post as an attempt to claim exclusive rights as MyMagic+'s sole detractor. Instead, I find his post to be a taunt aimed at those who defended it.

Since it's an interesting topic, I accept the challenge of defending MyMagic+ financially. (Please, don't drag me into yet another discussion of its technical merits. )

It's premature to declare MyMagic+ a financial failure. I believe we need to watch the next 2 to 3 quarters to see how it plays out.

My interpretation of data thus far is that MyMagic+ did result in a significant bump in hotel occupancy when it was an onsite-only perk. See my post here.

Since then, Disney has distributed MyMagic+ to offsite guests. As a result, the WDW hotel occupancy rate returned to normal levels last quarter (Q3). Some numbers:

Disney 2013Q2 domestic occupancy: 80%
Disney 2014Q2 domestic occupancy: 86%

Disney 2013Q3 domestic occupancy: 79%
Disney 2014Q3 domestic occupancy: 82%

(Note that these fiscal quarters correspond to the first half of the year, January to the end of June.)

For comparison, I quote from an August 3, 2014 article in the Orlando Sentinel:

"So far this year, occupancy rates have averaged almost 77 percent, up 4 percentage points from the first half of 2013, according to Visit Orlando. The agency said recent data also suggests that advance bookings for the back half of the year are running almost 5 percent ahead of this time last year."​

(Note that Visit Orlando's numbers exclude WDW.)

WDW's huge Q2 bump of 6% is without precedent in the history of that resort.

WDW's smaller Q3 bump of 3% is actually below the Orlando area increase.

In Q2, WDW "guests" caught wind of some kind of new onsite-only benefit. Even if they didn't fully understand it, they wanted it. In Q3, this once exclusive onsite perk was unveiled to the general public, resulting in declining quarter-to-quarter occupancy.

Even more idiotic, Disney decided to sell MagicBands to offsite guests for a pittance. What once might have been viewed as an exclusive (OK, snooty) mark of distinction for onsite guests quickly devolved into cheap rubber jewelry.

Corporate Disney has mishandled MyMagic+ badly but, with the right strategy, MyMagic+ could have been a financial success.

I look at those bumps in numbers as a sign on the continued better economic news and the fact that many people had put off Disney vacations for so long.

There could also be alight bump due to New Fantasyland and the SWMT.

I think it's a complete stretch to say it has anything at all to do with Fastpass+.

 

[71jason]

I know the Frozen gals were getting ready to move into the Norway pavilion, but looks like this little fury guy has set up shop. He joined us for a snack outside of the Kringla earlier today.

[/URL]

Was it Mickey's cousin?

Saw him in the bushes Friday night!

 

[WDW1974]

This is a valid point. I think most people here are just focused on the theme park divisions (primarily in Orlando).

I'm not.

But when I talk things from consumer products to ABC programming to theme parks in China, I get the sense that folks across MAGICland are tuning out.

BTW, over and under on how many pages the EPCOT entertainment bitchfest thread will go? I'll put $20 down on 123 pages.

 

[bhg469]

Spirited Labor Day Weekend Quickees:

There are advantages to having a very long distance relationship. Who knew that one was the ability to end a very late night call and look at MAGIC and watch some loser troll likely drunk posting up a storm using naughty words and begging to be banned for reasons unclear to me? And someone who joins the site in 2003?!! Yes, people are crazy.

Just to be clear as I peaked ahead and saw some drama, but I am in no way saying I was the only naysayer of NGE. But it sure seemed that we had some out and proud supporters along with many 'wait and see-ers' and yes, I was poking to see if anyone wanted to defend Disney at this point in time. I wanted to provoke discussion as there's only so much energy I have for defending the Big Bang Theory!

Also, I don't have an opinion on Gringotts yet because I haven't ridden (it's on my fall agenda) it, but I am curious now that we're around the date it should have been opened and is much more reliable. What I have heard from folks in the business whose opinions I respect greatly has largely been good (but not great ... what has been great are the reviews of Diagon Alley as a whole).

Anyone here going to Mickey's Blatent We Know It's Not Halloween Yet, But Really We'd Start These Parties On August 1st If We Could Pretty Scary Money Grab on Monday night?

So, worst summer at the box office since 1997 (hey, I know I saw Hercules that summer!) is coming to a close. And you'll hear gloom and doom all the way until next summer which will be one of the biggest in history.

BTW, top three domestic films were: Guardians of Galaxy, Transformers and Maleficent.

Speaking of films, I saw Robin Williams in Angriest Man in Brooklyn over the weekend and ... it wasn't that good. Would have been better if they actually added 30-60 minutes to it and gave added depth to the characters. The fact that I enjoyed it at all is likely due to Robin's talents. But it was eerie watching a film about his character dying and attempting to kill himself by jumping off the Brooklyn Bridge. I remember reading a story when it came out that he and Mila Kunis actually filmed in the river and ... yuck!

Wonder what crowds are like at the O-Town parks this weekend. I've never been much of a Labor Day Weekend at the parks Spirit. I think I have been up there twice over this weekend and both were when I was under 18.

Someone told me that for Sea World ''it was like summer never happened' this year. Very sad.

SNL is going to be strange without Don Pardo's booming voice forever more.

Don't forget that Tuesday night is the Frozen Melted special on ABC where in all likelihood you'll hear a few tidbits about the 'new' WDW attraction and the Broadway production.

I still can't believe they killed Pancho. ... Just a question for you folks, but if you have one dog get snacked on by a crocodile do you do something to prevent that from ever happening again or do you let the croc feed on three other of your dogs instead?

Nice win for FSU last night considering they didn't play very well!

On three ... we loves Dizzy World!!!! Dizzy World Rulez!!!!

OK, put your screens down and get those BBQs fired up!

It's a grill, and if it's above 50 degrees, she's always humming, all 5 of her glorious burners and the occasional use of my ceramic sear plate.

BBQ is in a jar in my fridge

 

[Nubs70]

Forget BBQ. Make sauerbraten. Alton Brown recipe from Food Network.

Getting ready to prep one this evening.

 

[Funmeister]

I'm not.

But when I talk things from consumer products to ABC programming to theme parks in China, I get the sense that folks across MAGICland are tuning out.

BTW, over and under on how many pages the EPCOT entertainment bitchfest thread will go? I'll put $20 down on 123 pages.

I am going to say 124 or might go $1.

 

[PirateFrank]

...wait until Cindy's Castle becomes the ultimate villa!...

you're not serious, are you? please tell me you're joking!

 

[Goofyernmost]

That's a fair opinion, but FastPass+ is only one component of the entire NGE debacle, and could have been implemented without the $2 billion investment. You cannot judge the initiative a success based on a single aspect. Not having to walk all over the park collecting FP's just to return later is nice, but the steep learning curve and hilariously overcomplicated level of planning involved beg solutions to problems which never previously existed.

Just for the record... I wasn't commenting on how it was gotten too, or even if it could have been done easier and less expensively. I was commenting on the fact, to me, that it created a much more enjoyable visit for me.

Even a first-time guest, with little advance knowledge of Walt Disney World and no advance planning, will readily distinguish the differences in scale, quality, and presentation between the park's best and classic experiences (Haunted Mansion, Pirates) and some of its failures (Stitch, the current Journey into Imagination). With even a minimum of initial research, the differences will also stand out. Everything is hardly a "high quality attraction", and being labeled with FP+ will not make it so. The NGE program has been accused of relying on the guests' being dense and gullible to achieve its objectives (spending with bracelets, etc.), but people are not so easily fooled (and do not take kindly to being duped).

I have to disagree. If you hadn't, in person, witness what preceded, you would not be able to be aware of a different quality. I'm not even sure it is of better quality overall, but, they did have a pop or two that got your attention and stayed in your memory. Without that experience you don't have that memory. There are many of what people would consider low quality that are a large part of why they go to WDW to begin with. What you mentioned as attempting to fool the public is exactly why I never thought that the upturn in spending held water. Now possibly more people going to the biggest ripoff of all, the resorts, that, I can see might have had a positive impact. From reports that is what didn't happen.

Personal opinion does not determine which attractions are quality experiences; This must (and can) be evaluated objectively. Every ride ever built is probably somebody's favorite, but that opinion doesn't elevate the attraction's stature. Experiences can indeed be classified in an honest, reliable, and valid manner which describes to guests the scope and scale of the experience.

Oh, I beg to differ with that statement. All experiences are judged based on personal opinion. Again, as you said, "every ride ever built is probably somebody's favorite" means that how some judge the experience is completely different then others. Things like "Stitch" as far as quality is concerned, is far better and more technically advanced then the "Journey to Mars" that existed originally. The story line is different, but, it is far better overall. Because you don't particularly like it does not take away from it's quality except in your mind.