The Spirited Seventh Heaven ...

[asianway]

That is why I think that while Hogsmeade was a shot across the bow, Diagon is a dead on cannonbal that takes out the mast. UNI Creative has created something that is so far beyond anything the WDI has created lately. They have taken Disney's old playbook and thrown it right back in their face. Yes, they will never surpass their attendance or build as many hotel rooms but the paradigm has shifted. Universal is now going to be considered the creators of state of the art themed attractions. Something many of us have felt already. The amount of Pixie Dusters is not gonna increase. Kids today have many choices and they don't fall for the Disney Magic as easily as there parents do. They have already been stealing one day from WDW, they are going to start stealing two. UNI is creating their own magic not relying on nostalgia. UNI seems to be taken the long view and building something unlike anything else while TDO stands by and does nothing.

That is the great thing, as these kids grow up the goodwill that comes with nostalgia will erode more and more

 

[bhg469]

That is why I think that while Hogsmeade was a shot across the bow, Diagon is a dead on cannonbal that takes out the mast. UNI Creative has created something that is so far beyond anything that WDI has created lately. They have taken Disney's old playbook and thrown it right back in their face. Yes, they will never surpass their attendance or build as many hotel rooms but the paradigm has shifted. Universal is now going to be considered the creators of state of the art themed attractions. Something many of us have felt already. The amount of Pixie Dusters is not gonna increase. Kids today have many choices and they don't fall for the Disney Magic as easily as there parents do. They have already been stealing one day from WDW, they are going to start stealing two. UNI is creating their own magic not relying on nostalgia. UNI seems to be taken the long view and building something unlike anything else while TDO stands by and does nothing.

I agree with everything except universal never passing disney in attendace. A third gate is supposedly coming, in addition to a very crazy sounding water park.. they could start matching dhs and dak numbers very soon.

 

[culturenthrills]

I agree with everything except universal never passing disney in attendace. A third gate is supposedly coming, in addition to a very crazy sounding water park.. they could start matching dhs and dak numbers very soon.

Oh I expect them to pass DHS and DAK, I should have clarified my point. I expect the water park to be unlike any we have seen before with a level of theming unseen before in a water park. It will be interesting to see if UNI just lets info trickle out or they just drop a bomb and announce their huge expansion. But I don't know I think they like to keep Disney guessing.

 

[Cesar R M]

Were they expecting the MagicBands and MDE to solve the Be Our Guest queue problem before it happened?

I'm still surprised they did not add some sort of warning in the end of the bridge to BOG. to show people that the thing is completely full and booked.
thus not need to wait hours and hours in the bridge under the sun, clogging the way.

 

[wogwog]

Thanks, next time I go to MK I'll be sure to first go back to the hotel and get a s%^&load of dimes.

Actually Burbank saw that and it will no longer be a dime. It will be $10. Just so you know.

 

[crispy]

Oh I loved it well enough!
20k, even the queue, can't be beat for sheer expectant adventure, exoticism, atmosphere.

But boy did the queues of MK phase 1 ever show Disney was designed from gentle Mediterranean California! From the Mansion to Jungle Cruise to 20k. They were just too much in summer, despite the later umbrellas and canopies. Thank God Disney learned this lesson forty years ago from phase 1 or else it might've designed the 20k Replacement Project with outdoor queues it then had to fix again later with, say, umbrellas for guest waiting in line for Be Our Guest.

You are seriously killing it tonight!

 

[FigmentJedi]

Frozen Summer's overblown internet hype in a nutshell

 

[Mike S]

On my way back home from Universal. No Gringotts softs which makes me mad because they apparently let vacation package people on today. Rode Hogwarts Express 5 times (2 times to Hogsmeade, 3 to London). Even without having experienced Gringotts yet I say Universal knocked this expansion out of the park. If things go as planned I'll be back this weekend on the 12th for a one day trip with my brother and his friends to ride Gringotts.

 

[RSoxNo1]

Yes, because a fake castle, rocks, and decorations is on par with the ambition of opening the WORLDS LARGEST AQUARIUM and attempting to convince people they are being transported to an undersea base. Totally on the same level...

I totally get some people can't look back and realize what the scale of things were back then.. because they are spoiled by today... but can you at least try to put yourself in the time perspective when judging things?

Stop pretending that you're better than everyone, it's a tired act. Any component of WDW can be diminished down to it's simplest components. The Living Seas was large in scope and had impressive components. But it was rarely, if ever referred to as an E-ticket in any capacity. However, the entirety of the pavilion arguably had a similar impact as adding an E-ticket, much in the same way that the entirety of the Fantasyland expansion had a similar effect.

As I said on the post prior to the one you quoted. At this point we're arguing semantics. The parks are stale and need new rides to fix that problem. By continuing a debate about stuff that happened 25 years ago, we as fans are doing the current parks a disservice. This type of pointless bickering and grasping at nostalgia is part of the reason the parks are stale. We are all guilty of it to some extent and have unknowingly not seen the negligence currently facing the parks today.

 

[71jason]

WDW has become a bloated bureaucracy, incapable of operating efficiently.

Rather than correct their institutional problems, their "fix" is to delay investments, cut quality, and raise prices.

Hand-in-hand with that is a certain "groupthink" that prevents them from trying new ideas.

ca. 2007--"Orlando theme parks are a mature market." Hogsmeade (and Despicable Me and Transformers) blow that theory out of the water.

ca. 2013--"The only metric for guest satisfaction that matters is number of rides ridden. Ergo, the only way to increase guest satisfaction is to build up FastPass." Diagon Alley--with guests spending hours only to go home and rave online without a single ride--blows that theory out of the water.

 

[stlphil]

Sorry, correct, it was still windows - but you were surrounded by the aquarium. Now you have no effect of that what so ever.

My first real taste of Disney value engineering was the first time riding the Living Seas ride after having seen the concept art- which did depict a clear tube that you rode through that looked incredible. Despite the scattered windows in the actual ride, the environment of the ride tunnel was so utilitarian that I never got the sense of being surrounded by the sea. Perhaps unfairly, that disappointment soured me on the whole pavilion despite the cool stuff there, such as the hydrolators. And as you pointed out, with the Nemo ride you don't get that "surrounded" sense at all anymore, although the ride is "nice" for what it is.

Contrast that with the aquariums at Atlantis resort, which feel like submerged extensions of the Atlantean streets you are walking on. No ride, but still jaw dropping.

 

[wdisney9000]

Stop pretending that you're better than everyone, it's a tired act. Any component of WDW can be diminished down to it's simplest components. The Living Seas was large in scope and had impressive components. But it was rarely, if ever referred to as an E-ticket in any capacity. However, the entirety of the pavilion arguably had a similar impact as adding an E-ticket, much in the same way that the entirety of the Fantasyland expansion had a similar effect.

Take him down a peg. well done.

 

[ChrisFL]

is HE different each way?

yes

 

[Gabe1]

I think people overrate Seabase Alpha. The concept was fantastic with the Hydrolaters, but the "ride" was boring as all get out and the film got stale once you saw it a few times. The seabase itself is largely the same as it is now (and the changes are to the better, like adding Crush).

I can't agree with anything in your post, sorry.

The entire theme of the Seas fit together from the movie to the Hydrolaters, the ride viewing the many sea creatures they had back then and emptying into rooms full of various interactive worlds under the sea. I cannot put the Crush skit (as cute as he is for preschoolers) in the same category of imagineering as the pavilion was designed to be. Animated fish vs the real thing to me is a complete dumb down. They took a cohesive pavilion and turned it into a pavilion aimed at the mentality of a small child.

 

[BrianLo]

WDI does not = WDW.

I've taken the liberty of extremely weighing this into Universal's favour here, including things that (in my opinion) are not E-tickets. Meanwhile anything that even remotely people have argued doesn't hold up to snuff on the Disney side I've left out. C/D-tickets (TSMM, Mermaid, SDMT, Autotopia, RC Racers and the litany of C/D's coming for SDL), Overlays (Star Tours 2.0, Test Track etc.) and brand new E-ticket shows (World of Colour, TDS Fantasmic) aren't making the cut because I'm still trying to weigh this in Universal's favour.

Arbitrarily let's look at the past ten years and the near term future. Why that? Because it's also probably the most in Universal's favour. If you want to include the opening of USJ and IOA, Disney Sea gets brought into the mix (+ Animal Kingdom, WDS and DCA), needless to say that also moves the meter in WDI's favour.

Universal Creative

2004 – Spiderman (USJ), Revenge of Mummy (UOR & USH)
2005 –
2006 -
2007 – Hollywood Dream (USJ)
2008 – The Simpsons Ride (UOR & USH)
2009 – Holly Rip Ride Rockit (UOR)
2010 – Forbidden Journey (UOR), Jurassic Park Rapids Adventure (USS), Revenge of the Mummy (USS), Madagascar Crate Adventure (USS) [PS: It’s definitely not an E-ticket], Battlestar Galactica (USS/Now Closed), Space Fantasy (USJ)
2011- Transformers (USS)
2012 – Transformers (USH), Despicable Me (UOR)
2013 – Transformers (UOR)
2014 – Gringotts/Hogwarts Express/Diagon Alley (UOR), Forbidden Journey (USJ), Despicable Me (USH)
2015 – Kong (UOR)
2016 – Forbidden Journey (USH), ?UOR E-ticket
2017 - ?UOR E-ticket

Walt Disney Imagineering

2004 – Tower of Terror (DCA)
2005 – Space Mountain, Jungle Cruise (HKDL)
2006 – Everest (AK), Tower of Terror (TDS)
2007 – Sindbad Seven Voyages Re-Do (TDS), Crush’s Coaster (WDS), Tower of Terror (WDS)
2008 – Small World (HKDL)
2009 – Monsters, Inc. Ride and Go Seek (TDL)
2010 –
2011 –
2012 – Radiator Springs Racers (DCA), Grizzly Mountain Mine Cars (HKDL)
2013 – Mystic Manor (HKDL)
2014 – Ratatouille (WDS)
2015 – Pirates of the Caribbean (SDL), Roarin’ Rapids (SDL), TRON (SDL), Voyage of the Crystal Grotto (SDL)
2016 – Iron Man (HKDL)
2017 – Pandora (?1 E-ticket), ?Monsters Door Coaster (DCA)


What's the real takeaway here? Things are very exciting at the Universal Orlando Resort, (fairly clone-tastic at their other resorts) and very boring at WDW. That seems to be the argument that is played out here constantly, and yet somehow people are translating it to the whole.

I think Universal is rocking it in Orlando, but Disney is rocking it in Asia. That's why it pays to be a fan of both, and WDW could still wake up if it ever wanted to.

 

[EpcoTim]

Ultimately everything we argue is twisted to meet an agenda

Obviously. Your post included I'm assuming.

 

[Mike S]

Ultimately everything we argue is twisted to meet an agenda, but this whole Universal Creative is the be all, end all is completely bunk! I realize this is a "Florida" board, but that's the only microscopic way this argument ever leans in Universal's favour.

This argument needs a GLOBAL perspective, WDI does not = WDW.

I've even taken the liberty of extremely weighing this into Universal's favour here, including things that (in my opinion) are not E-tickets. Meanwhile anything that even remotely people have argued doesn't hold up to snuff on the Disney side I've left out. C/D-tickets (TSMM, Mermaid, SDMT, Autotopia, RC Racers and the litany of C/D's coming for SDL), Overlays (Star Tours 2.0, Test Track etc.) and brand new E-ticket shows (World of Colour, TDS Fantasmic) aren't making the cut because I'm still trying to weigh this in Universal's favour.

Arbitrarily let's look at the past ten years and the near term future. Why that? Because it's also probably the most in Universal's favour. If you want to include the opening of USJ and IOA, Disney Sea gets brought into the mix (+ Animal Kingdom, WDS and DCA), needless to say that also moves the meter in WDI's favour.

Universal Creative

2004 – Spiderman (USJ), Revenge of Mummy (UOR & USH)
2005 –
2006 -
2007 – Hollywood Dream (USJ)
2008 – The Simpsons Ride (UOR & USH)
2009 – Holly Rip Ride Rockit (UOR)
2010 – Forbidden Journey (UOR), Jurassic Park Rapids Adventure (USS), Revenge of the Mummy (USS), Madagascar Crate Adventure (USS) [PS: It’s definitely not an E-ticket], Battlestar Galactica (USS/Now Closed), Space Fantasy (USJ)
2011- Transformers (USS)
2012 – Transformers (USH), Despicable Me (UOR)
2013 – Transformers (UOR)
2014 – Gringotts/Hogwarts Express/Diagon Alley (UOR), Forbidden Journey (USJ), Despicable Me (USH)
2015 – Kong (UOR)
2016 – Forbidden Journey (USH), ?UOR E-ticket
2017 - ?UOR E-ticket

Walt Disney Imagineering

2004 – Tower of Terror (DCA)
2005 – Space Mountain, Jungle Cruise (HKDL)
2006 – Everest (AK), Tower of Terror (TDS)
2007 – Sindbad Seven Voyages Re-Do (TDS), Crush’s Coaster (WDS), Tower of Terror (WDS)
2008 – Small World (HKDL)
2009 – Monsters, Inc. Ride and Go Seek (TDL)
2010 –
2011 –
2012 – Radiator Springs Racers (DCA), Grizzly Mountain Mine Cars (HKDL)
2013 – Mystic Manor (HKDL)
2014 – Ratatouille (WDS)
2015 – Pirates of the Caribbean (SDL), Roarin’ Rapids (SDL), TRON (SDL), Voyage of the Crystal Grotto (SDL)
2016 – Iron Man (HKDL)
2017 – Pandora (?1 E-ticket), ?Monsters Door Coaster (DCA)


What's the real takeaway here? Things are very exciting at the Universal Orlando Resort, (fairly clone-tastic at their other resorts) and very boring at WDW. That seems to be the argument that is played out here constantly, and yet somehow people are translating it to the whole. As a global purveyor I can't support the argument that somehow WDI is creatively bankrupt.

I think Universal is rocking it in Orlando, but Disney is rocking it in Asia. That's why it pays to be a fan of both, and WDW could still wake up if it ever wanted to.

I completely agree. I just focus on here in Florida because, well, it's HERE. No plane flight needed. I've also noticed how things seem to be going much better at UOR than at the other Uni parks. Guess it helps that Universal Creative is based in Orlando. I'm certainly not complaining

 

[Cesar R M]

Ultimately everything we argue is twisted to meet an agenda, but this whole Universal Creative is the be all, end all is completely bunk! I realize this is a "Florida" board, but that's the only microscopic way this argument ever leans in Universal's favour.

This argument needs a GLOBAL perspective, WDI does not = WDW.

I've even taken the liberty of extremely weighing this into Universal's favour here, including things that (in my opinion) are not E-tickets. Meanwhile anything that even remotely people have argued doesn't hold up to snuff on the Disney side I've left out. C/D-tickets (TSMM, Mermaid, SDMT, Autotopia, RC Racers and the litany of C/D's coming for SDL), Overlays (Star Tours 2.0, Test Track etc.) and brand new E-ticket shows (World of Colour, TDS Fantasmic) aren't making the cut because I'm still trying to weigh this in Universal's favour.

Arbitrarily let's look at the past ten years and the near term future. Why that? Because it's also probably the most in Universal's favour. If you want to include the opening of USJ and IOA, Disney Sea gets brought into the mix (+ Animal Kingdom, WDS and DCA), needless to say that also moves the meter in WDI's favour.

Universal Creative

2004 – Spiderman (USJ), Revenge of Mummy (UOR & USH)
2005 –
2006 -
2007 – Hollywood Dream (USJ)
2008 – The Simpsons Ride (UOR & USH)
2009 – Holly Rip Ride Rockit (UOR)
2010 – Forbidden Journey (UOR), Jurassic Park Rapids Adventure (USS), Revenge of the Mummy (USS), Madagascar Crate Adventure (USS) [PS: It’s definitely not an E-ticket], Battlestar Galactica (USS/Now Closed), Space Fantasy (USJ)
2011- Transformers (USS)
2012 – Transformers (USH), Despicable Me (UOR)
2013 – Transformers (UOR)
2014 – Gringotts/Hogwarts Express/Diagon Alley (UOR), Forbidden Journey (USJ), Despicable Me (USH)
2015 – Kong (UOR)
2016 – Forbidden Journey (USH), ?UOR E-ticket
2017 - ?UOR E-ticket

Walt Disney Imagineering

2004 – Tower of Terror (DCA)
2005 – Space Mountain, Jungle Cruise (HKDL)
2006 – Everest (AK), Tower of Terror (TDS)
2007 – Sindbad Seven Voyages Re-Do (TDS), Crush’s Coaster (WDS), Tower of Terror (WDS)
2008 – Small World (HKDL)
2009 – Monsters, Inc. Ride and Go Seek (TDL)
2010 –
2011 –
2012 – Radiator Springs Racers (DCA), Grizzly Mountain Mine Cars (HKDL)
2013 – Mystic Manor (HKDL)
2014 – Ratatouille (WDS)
2015 – Pirates of the Caribbean (SDL), Roarin’ Rapids (SDL), TRON (SDL), Voyage of the Crystal Grotto (SDL)
2016 – Iron Man (HKDL)
2017 – Pandora (?1 E-ticket), ?Monsters Door Coaster (DCA)


What's the real takeaway here? Things are very exciting at the Universal Orlando Resort, (fairly clone-tastic at their other resorts) and very boring at WDW. That seems to be the argument that is played out here constantly, and yet somehow people are translating it to the whole. As a global purveyor I can't support the argument that somehow WDI is creatively bankrupt.

I think Universal is rocking it in Orlando, but Disney is rocking it in Asia. That's why it pays to be a fan of both, and WDW could still wake up if it ever wanted to.

do all those count? I mean.. a lot of them seem redos of older projects.

Also, does it really matter if WDI is pulling and designing projects left and right and then TDO just says "NO" to everything?


As for WDW, dunno about you.. but I get ads everywhere about WDW (from credit card companies, to tour companies) but hardly anything from DisneyLand. And nothing from the Asia parks.

 

[flynnibus]

Stop pretending that you're better than everyone, it's a tired act

Self-conscious much? Tell us another story about what you talked about on the podcast again that no one heard.

Any component of WDW can be diminished down to it's simplest components. The Living Seas was large in scope and had impressive components. But it was rarely, if ever referred to as an E-ticket in any capacity

By who? Disney doesn't refer to the attractions that way anyways.. so how you are qualifying it I have no idea. Second... It was a pavilion - you didn't approach it as the omnimover on its own.. as that was just part of the show leading up to the seabase.

However, the entirety of the pavilion arguably had a similar impact as adding an E-ticket, much in the same way that the entirety of the Fantasyland expansion had a similar effect.

The difference being.. one is a stand-alone pavilion... one is a land. Who talks about lands being E-tickets? or any ticket level?

You know what makes the comparison laughable?? The elements most recent Disney efforts lack... AMBITION and being UNIQUE. Sure you can say New Fantasyland is pretty, and has crazy details... that's just the airhead. Hot on the outside, empty on the inside. The sad thing is the most ambitious elements in the whole project are the effects in a M&G location and the approach to a table service restaurant.

The parks are stale and need new rides to fix that problem

That's one solution - but not the only. Large parts of what make Disney feel stale of late is everything around the attractions. When we run the same entertainment offerings for a decade+... from fireworks to mediocre parades (or just getting rid of them).. to stage shows.. to the types of entertainment. Or how about attraction updates? The only thing really getting updates consistently of late are food locations - and most updates are not being well received.

By continuing a debate about stuff that happened 25 years ago, we as fans are doing the current parks a disservice. This type of pointless bickering and grasping at nostalgia is part of the reason the parks are stale. We are all guilty of it to some extent and have unknowingly not seen the negligence currently facing the parks today.

Speak for yourself. It's not about nostalgia when I refer to Disney's past efforts, but rather pointing to other examples of industry efforts and their impact. I'm not blindly giving Disney money while arguing over armchair imagineering. If they don't deliver.. I don't buy.

 

[flynnibus]

You have to keep a nearly thirty year old pavilion in perspective. Sea Base Alpha was arguably not overrated at all for the mid-1980's when it opened, but considered as a whole The Living Seas was a solid "E" ticket addition (unlike NFL, Seas was all one package). Perhaps related to the subject matter, but more so to the (typical of Future World) lack of updates in the intervening years and then the thematically questionable inclusion of cartoon fish, the attraction hasn't aged as well as other Epcot pavilions. The current Nemo ride is actually pretty good, though it would be more thematically appropriate in another park (where have we heard that before!).

Well said... poor Seas looked like a boarded up rowhome before the Nemo additions. It was so neglected and deprived of all it's show elements. It was DEPRESSING standing in the old seabase area. At least turtle talk is great and the Nemo attraction was pretty well done. It's just still kind of piece meal and they really didn't do much to modernize the aquarium itself to make it an attraction in itself. Probably the biggest ball and chain left on property.