The Spirited Seventh Heaven ...

[Bork Bork]

Charleston is stunning architecturally, culturally, and historically; a true American gem. Take the kids on a horse-drawn surrey history ride around the Market and South of Broad neighborhood to bring the Civil War era to life. Great beaches on Isle of Palms, just north of town. Fantastic restaurants and friendly locals. Enjoy!

You are smart to get the kids out beyond theme parks every summer. This is such an amazing country with so many unique regional offerings, it pains me to see the "Disney families" who only ever take their kids to theme parks and pre-fabricated corporate experiences.

Thanks for the tips. And you're right...this is an amazing country.

 

[Cody5242]

I have an AP, so most of my time is spent visiting hotels close to the parks. Nothing beats visiting the Yacht Club or the Grand Floridean and having a few drinks at the Mizer's Lounge

 

[Cody5242]

I also like going to the Tune-in Lounge and talking to the bartender David

 

[Californian Elitist]

You are smart to get the kids out beyond theme parks every summer. This is such an amazing country with so many unique regional offerings, it pains me to see the "Disney families" who only ever take their kids to theme parks and pre-fabricated corporate experiences.

Amen. If I had thousands of dollars to spend for vacations, I'd be traveling around the country and going across seas.

 

[WDW1974]

Spirited Saturday Explanation:

I realize there has been some consternation and, dare I say, drama, over my asking a simple question. Understand there was no hidden agenda. I was curious and looking for opinions. This wasn't like say Eddie Sotto (remember him?) using a forum here for a book deal with Lifestyler Michael Crawford (did he sell his soul to be part of D23? you be the judge, I'll just pose the question and remind you all that if you aren't under the oath, the NSA is still watching!) that apparently isn't happening.

I wanted to hear opinions. That's usually why a Spirit might pose a question.

I won't argue with people who think WDW is still worth their thousands of dollars.

I will pose the idea that some of the folks who talk about going for family, for making memories, for nostalgia's sake may be addicted to Disney's marketing MAGIC.

If you want to have MAGICal times with family and friends, you do not have to go to WDW (or any theme park for that matter to do so) and it is simplistic and naive to say WDW makes those. It doesn't. People do.

I have had amazing times at WDW to be sure (and in every Disney park on the planet). I've also had amazing times hiking Denali National Park, walking the Great Wall of China, eating at cafes across from Notre Dame (no, not the home of the Fighting Irish), snorkeling in Hawaii, doing very little in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean, camping in a tiny Maine town, looking down into the Grand Canyon, having ice cream while sitting on a bench looking at the surf come in in Laguna Beach, watching the lights come on across the Pearl River Delta from 108 stories up the Canton Tower, watching bears in the wild in Sequoia National Park, walking down LV Blvd's Strip, spending the week before Christmas in NYC ... I could list another 100 things that were with loved ones and MAGICal. The point being that the place doesn't make the MAGIC. The people do.

If you think that WDW suddenly turns your family into a loving bunch just because Goofy had fun rubbing Uncle Harry's bald head over breakfast at Chef Mickey's, then you may just not travel enough.

I have a friend who I have tried to get out of her comfort zone for probably 20 years now (yeah, you can see how successful that's been!) and her answer always is ''I love chocolate ice cream, so why should I try any other flavor?'' That is what I see with SOME of the WDW chronics. Before you start a nasty reply, please realize I am not talking about anyone here. I am speaking in general of a mindset ... a mindset that may be ''Vacation for us is two weeks at the BW every July and 10 days at VWL every third December too.'' There's a whole world out there. A world of amazing places, some even include theme parks. And one does themselves no service by repeating the same thing every year, even if they enjoy it because they are precluding the opportunities to enjoy what else is out there.

Anyway ... that's just my opinion. I'm enjoying reading yours. Maybe I'll turn them into a book?

 

[WDW1974]

Of course, that was in the days before Social Media whoring when anyone with a blog could be bought with a shiney trinket and a box of popcorn to spread the message of "Everything is Awesome."

Oh I agree, Dave. I just find it amazingly arrogant that a company like Disney would rather clean up mess after mess, rather than remove the cause from the game board, and use that piece to actually improve the product and their image.

But if Josh Hallett and Shel Holtz and Co tell them ''don't worry, here's a list of another 50 Mommy Bloggers you can use, the invoice is in your email'', I guess they'll keep playing that card.

 

[Travel Junkie]

Funny how that's changed in the last five years or so, isn't it? If it weren't for my beloved Epcot, as a West Coaster I'd be about the same when it comes to WDW now. TDO has a lot of work to do, and the Dwarfs Mine Train and Avatar simulator ride isn't nearly enough.

I'm in the same boat. I used to constantly look at airfare prices out east. Now i'm finding myself looking at airfare in the east... as in the far east.

 

[Hobnail Boot]

In two weeks we're going to HHI on points and plan to check out Savannah, GA and Charleston, SC.

As a Savannah local, I suggest skipping The Lady and Sons if you're planning on going there. It's an overpriced tourist trap and the food isn't consistent. Hope you enjoy your visit and the humidity!

 

[WDW1974]

The bolded was precisely what I thought, which makes the toothless critiques even more baffling.

He's not Lovable Lou and doesn't get media invites, so it's not like he even has the option of biting the hand that feeds him.

I admire his desire to be fair, if it's based on nothing more than personal principle. Maybe it's harsh to say, but what influence has Yee ever had on the WDW community?

For that matter, you could ask who has any influence in the WDW community today? And what kind of influence do they have?

My own answers: primarily, the people with influence are happy-go-lucky brand defenders who function as corporate mouthpieces. Not all 100% of the time, of course, but largely so.

It's been said before, but the WDW community has never had a galvanizing critic like Lutz. If it did, the Yeti wouldn't have a strobe light pointed at it today.

I'd like to think I have some influence on the community. My 'popularity' speaks for itself. But I am no Al Lutz and I have never desired that mantle. Al hit at the perfect time in a much tighter knit, much savvier, much ... well, smarter fan community.

I don't think it would be possible for example to get 98% of fans to agree that Walt had no input whatsoever into the creation of the MK.

Al often had a good three quarters of DLR fans behind his viewpoints and calls for change.

DLR has a base of fans that literally goes back more than half a century. Generations of people (not simply locals either) have taken an ownership of Walt's Park. WDW? ... Um ... no, nothing even close. There are WDW fans that spent hundreds of days at the parks who never knew WDW when it had less than four parks, never knew a WDW without DVC, never knew a WDW where the 'resort' was the whole point, never knew a WDW without pintrading, never knew a WDW without the DDP, never knew a WDW where entertainment offerings were often changed out annually, never knew a WDW where 'suits' actually wore them, never knew a WDW where you didn't depend on bus transportation, never knew a WDW where you could swim in natural lakes, never knew a WDW that didn't have upcharge events, never knew a WDW that just plain was classy and was run by folks who looked to EXCEED GUEST EXPECTATIONS ... nope, a 'WDW fan' who first came in 2000 or 2003 or 2006 (or even some in the 90s) probably looks at critics like me as if we are the crazy ones because they have no clue whatsoever as to what true WDW quality was for decades.

You can have Disco Yeti because the majority of fans who even realize he is non-functional simply don't give a damn and would rather get a picture with Jedi Mickey or buy an Orange Bird tee. And then you have something with WDW today that Al in his heyday never had to deal with in Anaheim: the Lifestylers, the bloggers, the whores. People who will read scripts from Celebration Place that Lovely Leanne (congrats on the nuptials, hun!) and her team wrote word for word. In reality, they aren't out there to spread the word about how MAGICal WDW is or get people to spend there, those are just byproducts. No, they exist to make so much noise (think screaming children on a crowded 737) that critics get drowned out. That is their strategy.

I'd argue that it doesn't work so well when some Spirits have the real world connections to cause trouble and cost a company $$$ for its ignorance and arrogance. But most don't and Disney has deep pockets.

 

[rael ramone]

I have a friend who I have tried to get out of her comfort zone for probably 20 years now (yeah, you can see how successful that's been!) and her answer always is ''I love chocolate ice cream, so why should I try any other flavor?'' That is what I see with SOME of the WDW chronics. Before you start a nasty reply, please realize I am not talking about anyone here. I am speaking in general of a mindset ... a mindset that may be ''Vacation for us is two weeks at the BW every July and 10 days at VWL every third December too.'' There's a whole world out there. A world of amazing places, some even include theme parks. And one does themselves no service by repeating the same thing every year, even if they enjoy it because they are precluding the opportunities to enjoy what else is out there.

Anyway ... that's just my opinion. I'm enjoying reading yours. Maybe I'll turn them into a book?

Comfort food (in vacation form). The same reason people will wait for 1 1/2 hours to eat at Olive Garden instead of a mom & pop Italian place where they'll get seated right away and be fed by someone who was born in Sicily - they know what to expect from the Mouse. And with only so much vacation time (some of which ends up getting burned every year for auto repairs, etc) they don't want to risk 'wasting' it on something that is unfamilar to them.

 

[WDW1974]

Have no idea if this has been mentioned here, but was catching up on reading and this story was in the 5/30 print edition of THR:

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/walt-disney-family-feud-inside-706029

It's quite sad, but not at all unusual. The story is more of an outline as it raises more questions than it answers, but it still is interesting.

 

[WDW1974]

What sticks out is the jump in total revenue after Eisner joined in 1984. When Eisner was brought on board, Disney's only successful segment was P&R. After that, the company as a whole began firing on all cylinders. Eisner (along with significant contributions from others) really did lead the effort to save Disney.

Still, Eisner invested heavily in the theme parks. Under Eisner, there were several years when annual investments exceeded $5B. This was in absolute dollars. In inflation-adjusted dollars, this was over $8B. Those of us who saw WDW expand tremendously during the "Disney Decade" know that a lot was spent in Orlando.

Just imagine what could be happening at WDW today if Disney was investing closer to $8B annually.

What also sticks out is that P&R investments have plummeted. Prior to 9/11, Disney was not afraid to spend big at the theme parks. Understandably, P&R investments collapsed in the post-9/11 economy, when travel and all vacation destinations were adversely impacted. However, it appears corporate attitudes never changed as the economy recovered.

When it comes to P&R investments, Disney's current senior executive management still operates like it's 2002.

While you put together another impactful (is that a new word?) numbers post, I think you can boil it all down to just what I quoted above.

While ignorant fanbois crow about the level of investment The Weatherman has placed in WDW (and P&R in general), the record shows he doesn't come close to what his predecessor did. And when most of WDW investment is in NGE and timeshares, it sure leaves next to nothing for brick and mortar improvements to the parks themselves.

Sorry, but remodeling a mall and adding timeshares to the Poly are not attendance drivers. Hell, even the little kiddie coaster is more of one than those!

 

[BernardandBianca]

I don't know if there is a way of saying this without seeming to be bragging, but maybe I am; I definitely am not ashamed of what I've done.

Me and the SO have been to all 50 US states, all seven continents, 9 of the Canadian provinces, and 76 different countries (without doing a Caribbean cruise). We've been to all 11 Disney parks worldwide (just happened to be in Shanghai the day Disney announced they were building the park there, and by happenstance drove past the site.) But we still go to WDW every weekend, at least once and generally twice. Why? Because it gives us pleasure.

Yes, we are APs, and live about 30 minutes from the farthest park from us. That was the result of job relocation, not precisely a plan. But it was a positive factor in the decision to accept the move. We're former DVC owners, but sold when we moved so close, since the positives were completely overwhelmed by the yearly maintenance fees.

We enjoy the parks. Period, no question. But it isn't because of anything WDW has done recently, it's because people who go seem to be enjoying themselves, and we like seeing that. We do more people watching than anything else. We always do at least one attraction per visit (my rule), but that isn't the driving force in going. Of course, our scheduling may seem strange - get up in the morning, decide where we want to eat, make a lunch reservation, eat, then visit whatever park we happen to be in. The only difference is when something special is going on - just had to see John Ratzenberg last weekend, and Mark Hamill today - but we could do that and nothing else at the park and consider it a good day. So is this the justification for dropping a couple of thousand dollars to do Disney? Obviously not, since we don't spend near that much at one time. But we will spend that over a year, and have no regrets doing so.

Of course, we bought APs to USO earlier this year (before the prices went up), because we want to see the additions to Potter that are upcoming. (We bought APs when the original Potterland opened too.) So while the atmosphere at USO is not as welcoming to us, the adds that Universal is doing are paying off, at least as it relates to us.

 

[Nemo14]

If you want to have MAGICal times with family and friends, you do not have to go to WDW (or any theme park for that matter to do so) and it is simplistic and naive to say WDW makes those. It doesn't. People do.

Exactly!!!!!!

 

[WDW1974]

FWIW, those families still largely exist, it's just that the Great Recession taught them to be more discriminating with that $50-$100. They're demanding fresher ingredients and higher quality meals, something Darren is not capable of delivering with their current size and structure.

I am quite confident that they don't exist in nearly the size and with the discretionary dollars that they did pre 2007-08. Folks didn't just suddenly decide the Olive Garden is lousy. It's been lousy since the 90s. Hell, I remember when there was ONE in the world on I-Drive (i believe it is a Panda Express now) and the food was actually amazingly fresh, good and priced reasonably. Yes, EPCOT Center was new to the world at the time, but not the point.

The Olive Garden and Red Lobster (and many others in that segment like Chili's and Applebee's) have never been known for quality food. But the folks who allowed them to grow rapidly from about 1990-2005 were the folks decimated by the economic collapse caused by Wall Street.

 

[RSoxNo1]

Just as opening a Burger King next to a McDonald's will increase sales at McDonald's?

Slightly different. MK will definitely get residual traffic but it probably won't help out the other parks anywhere near as much.

 

[WDW1974]

For Ghost Rider it doesn't matter how old you are, you get off the ride with some type of injury! Be glad you didn't ride it!

I doubt I'll ever ride a wooden coaster again. And I am perfectly OK with that. I don't feel like coasters need to be endurance tests or result in pain for them to be enjoyable.

I think what makes the single rider lines at DLR work is the fact that are a non-secret secret. They aren't too obvious, so they aren't generally overcrowded. And they have quite a few: Disneyland Park has 3 and DCA has 5. It makes the parks much for manageable. However, I just don't think the one for Soarin' is worthwhile. There can be three people in front of you, and it could take 20 minutes. I attribute this to the length of the row, PLUS the fact that they have a lot of time to fill the rows completey by mixing and matching. If the CMs didn't have as much time, then single-rider would be better for that, I think. The few times I did single rider, I only beat the standby wait time by maybe 5 minutes.

I still think they should add single rider to Space Mountain. I would say 1/3 of the ride's capacity is not utilized because the CMs just don't load the ride efficiently.

Really? I have always used the Single Rider for Soarin and found it to get me on much faster than otherwise. That's why I wish they would have used it at EPCOT as originally planned.

Maybe it's the difference between lunch and dinner. I went for lunch. But I'm also a very picky eater, so perhaps the more adventurous meals (in my eyes) stand well-above the basics.

OK, we are definitely talking about different locales because Napa Rose isn't open for lunch and has never been open. Are you thinking of Storytellers Cafe?

There is just something more, dare I say, "magical" about DLR than WDW. I've told many people that i my view, while both resorts are very corporate, that the feel between the two are different. DLR feels like a mom and pop operation, where the people work there very much care that they are there, and the customers are loyal, and the atmosphere is quaint and appropriate. WDW, on the other hand, is this big corporate beheamoth that tries to replicate what is in Anaheim, but without any of the charm. Money is more important, and everything looks manufactured as opposed to genuine.

A wife of a friend (he is a Disney nut, she is not) once described the MK as a ''mass market caricature of DL'' and, to this day, I still find that one of the best ways of comparing the two. People like to talk about how happy folks are at WDW. Well, except during Spring Break and at Christmas, I very rarely find that to be true. Most people look absolutely miserable. I witness constant meltdowns and some child abuse. If folks are having MAGICal times, then they have strange ways of showing it. And CMs ... well, there are certainly many wonderful ones at WDW that try and make MAGIC for guests, but there are loads that view it as simply a poor-paying service sector job and act that way. I don't see that, largely, at DLR.

 

[bhg469]

I LOVE American history, specifically the Civil War era, so seeing Gettysburg would be a real treat for me. I plan on seeing it someday.

Treasure trove of war of 1812 stuff here in wny. Nothing like Williamsburg or even boston but it's still really cool.

 

[Goofyernmost]

Spirited Saturday Explanation:

I realize there has been some consternation and, dare I say, drama, over my asking a simple question. Understand there was no hidden agenda. I was curious and looking for opinions. This wasn't like say Eddie Sotto (remember him?) using a forum here for a book deal with Lifestyler Michael Crawford (did he sell his soul to be part of D23? you be the judge, I'll just pose the question and remind you all that if you aren't under the oath, the NSA is still watching!) that apparently isn't happening.

I wanted to hear opinions. That's usually why a Spirit might pose a question.

I won't argue with people who think WDW is still worth their thousands of dollars.

I will pose the idea that some of the folks who talk about going for family, for making memories, for nostalgia's sake may be addicted to Disney's marketing MAGIC.

If you want to have MAGICal times with family and friends, you do not have to go to WDW (or any theme park for that matter to do so) and it is simplistic and naive to say WDW makes those. It doesn't. People do.

I have had amazing times at WDW to be sure (and in every Disney park on the planet). I've also had amazing times hiking Denali National Park, walking the Great Wall of China, eating at cafes across from Notre Dame (no, not the home of the Fighting Irish), snorkeling in Hawaii, doing very little in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean, camping in a tiny Maine town, looking down into the Grand Canyon, having ice cream while sitting on a bench looking at the surf come in in Laguna Beach, watching the lights come on across the Pearl River Delta from 108 stories up the Canton Tower, watching bears in the wild in Sequoia National Park, walking down LV Blvd's Strip, spending the week before Christmas in NYC ... I could list another 100 things that were with loved ones and MAGICal. The point being that the place doesn't make the MAGIC. The people do.

If you think that WDW suddenly turns your family into a loving bunch just because Goofy had fun rubbing Uncle Harry's bald head over breakfast at Chef Mickey's, then you may just not travel enough.

I have a friend who I have tried to get out of her comfort zone for probably 20 years now (yeah, you can see how successful that's been!) and her answer always is ''I love chocolate ice cream, so why should I try any other flavor?'' That is what I see with SOME of the WDW chronics. Before you start a nasty reply, please realize I am not talking about anyone here. I am speaking in general of a mindset ... a mindset that may be ''Vacation for us is two weeks at the BW every July and 10 days at VWL every third December too.'' There's a whole world out there. A world of amazing places, some even include theme parks. And one does themselves no service by repeating the same thing every year, even if they enjoy it because they are precluding the opportunities to enjoy what else is out there.

Anyway ... that's just my opinion. I'm enjoying reading yours. Maybe I'll turn them into a book?

And you are right, to an extent. However, many of us or I guess I should just speak for myself, have done all that years ago. Yes, it was great and it brought with it many memories. One was a group of us college students deciding to go to a brothel in Paris. Getting to the door, using the cast iron door knocker and when the door opened, turning and running for our lives out of shear panic. Many memories. That said, I have chosen that the only place that I enjoy every time is my time in the Orlando area. Not the same type of memories, but, warm and good memories. After a lifetime of work and second guessing those around me while forging my career, for whatever it was worth, I don't want to be having to figure out, exchange rates, travel in places that don't speak my native tongue or having to research places worth the effort.

Europe is filled with history, but, it's not my history it's someone else's history. Asia is a really nice and totally different place, but, I've been there and done that and none of it resonated to the point that I was able to relate to it. It was just a place to see, not to participate in. That is why I have, in my older years, decided I wanted to spend my time and money in a place that makes me feel alive and part of what I am doing, even if it is fantasy. It's fantasy that I can relate too.

As you know, because I have stated it more then once, I also see problems, but, I don't see them to the extent that you guys seem to deem as totally unacceptable. I do not live in the past, I once did actually live there, but, now I live in the present. I feel that I understand what the present is and what it means. It means that things are different. I can continue to live in the past and let the present pass me by or I can accept things that I have no control over and get out of them what there is to get. When I no longer can get what I need out of it, I will stop not only participating, but, I will pretty much exclude it from my conscience thought. In the long haul, what goes on in a theme park is a big pile of nothing when compared to what is important.

You get a joy out of travel. I know what that is like, I used to as well, but, I no longer find much joy in it. My sister has decided that we need to do a 3 week tour of Europe in late 2015 and I have agreed to go along, but, my heart isn't in it, like it once was. The itinerary covers places that I have been to before and some that I haven't, neither one of those prospects lights my fire. May be it's old age or maybe it has settled into my mind that it just isn't worth the hassle anymore.

You really cannot blame people for feeling a little upset, because your method of communication is and always has been slanted in a way the projects that you are special and those that don't do the same thing or feel the same way you do, are peasants and unworthy of being taken seriously. Asking those questions are pretty much the same as saying... 'what's wrong with you people'. It's just your way most of the time. You shouldn't be surprised if once in a while the peasants have a mini uprising.

If you think that WDW suddenly turns your family into a loving bunch just because Goofy had fun rubbing Uncle Harry's bald head over breakfast at Chef Mickey's, then you may just not travel enough.

For many people that is what makes them pull together even for a short time. It is also an acknowledgement that always searching for the place that make one feel good may have stopped because they have found it.

 

[WDW1974]

I posted about this in a previous thread when someone mentioned the sinkhole rumor was long debunked. I asked "debunked by whom?" because I know differently from my father. He was the 3rd shift maintenance foreman on Horizons in the mid 90's, right before the first extended closure. He confirmed to me there was indeed foundational and structural cracking from a probable sinkhole, and that the plan during the closure was to mitigate the damage and update the ride. Obviously they decided not to proceed with that original plan, and because he moved on to other maintenance departments and never returned, I don't have any solid information on its final closing and demolition.

His impression on why Horizons was replaced was its dwindling ridership and popularity coupled with its immense operating and maintenance budget (at the time, it was the only attraction at Epcot that had a dedicated Maintenance team) made repairing the damage and updating the attraction a poor financial decision.

Simply put, no a sinkhole wasn't the sole (or even major) reason Horizons was closed, but it was a contributing factor.

No ... just no.

Maybe there were structural issues with Horizons. If there had been, I think my good friend Georgie K would have mentioned them to me. He wasn't shy with Disney secrets at the time, that's for sure. And if that had been the case, I don't see how they reopened the attraction multiple times and then built another building on the same site. So ... yeah ... no.