The Spirited 8th Wonder (WDW's Future & You!)

[WDW1974]

For the same reasons we debunk Disney's 'deluxe' resorts as high-end, the same applies to UNI. I've never considered their three hotels as deluxes.. but rather a moderate++.

OK, finally something I can sorta disagree with. Royal Pacific may be more like a moderate++ type resort ... until you compare it to Disney's Poly, which is often 2-3 times as expensive yet lacks half the class.

Portofino Bay (post its 2012-13 renovations) absolutely feels deluxe to me in most every respect, at least deluxe by O-Town standards. It also has the best beds I have had at any non 5-Star type location. Just incredible. And I spent plenty of time in bed at PB in April after picking up norovirus at Typhoon Lagoon (yeah, left that out of my April trip observations thread!)

 

[sweetpee_1993]

I have saved a bundle just on one DVC trip. I went to Animal Kingdom Villas (Jambo House) during Spring breaktime in 2013. Because I had 4 adults and 1 child I stayed at 2 studios for 5 days each. The average rack rate (cash) cost per night for Savannah View was $531 per night + 12.5% tax X 2 rooms X 5 nights = $ 5974. Note: No discounts were available from Disney at the time for that room type at Jambo House.

2 DVC Studios cost with 2 years dues + 2 years depreciation + 13 extra points @ $15/pp = $ 1772.
In addition I used my DVC membership card to get $200 in discounts on merchandise purchased (Disney just loves me). This is at the resort that the OP classifies as 4 stars because it is unique, great themeing, (and has great restaurants).

My savings were 5974 - 1772 + 200 = $ 4402 on just one trip. My resale contract cost me $ 6450 with closing costs. On top of that I rented 154 points at $6 over my membership fee cost for a gross profit of $ 924.

To be frankly honest, DVC allows me to stay at Disney for what it REALLY should cost ($ 177.20 per night total) not their outrageous non-discounted rack rate !!!

I just love DVC !!! I am hoping this rumor really happens...I am so happy about it !!!

First, I don't travel during peak times. And, yes, I have 2 high school students, 1 that works 30+ hrs/week. Second, WDW hasn't been my vacation destination for almost 3 years. Thankfully, I'm not locked in there. I would be miserable if I was. It's my understanding using points for cruises or ABD isn't the best financial route. Friends say they do better renting out their points then paying out of pocket for those things. Third, when I have stayed at a WDW resort for a night or 2 pre-cruise I haven't paid rack rate. In fact, I stayed 2 nights in a villa at Kidani last year for....get this....about $170/night. Ps. I don't pay rack rate for most of the cruises with Disney I take either. Didn't pay rack at DLH in California. Didn't pay Disney's price for our APs out west. Had discounts on most everything we ate, drank, of bought, too.

DVC may look nice on paper for those who want to vacation at WDW every year but I do not. Florida's parks & resorts have been, for us, inconsistent enough that we don't trust the quality enough to tie ourselves to it. Even with the points purchased outright, I'm not okay tying up the maintenance dues funds. The parks admission costs are insane even with what pass discount is offered. Nope.

And when I'm done with Disney which is coming, I can simply walk away. That simple.

DVC works for some which is great. For me? I'd feel like a Mickey ball-n-chain was attached to me. Noooooo thanks.

 

[WDW1974]

If people are willing to pay to stay on property and they'll keep coming, they haven't priced their rooms out of the market. They may have priced you or I out of their market, but the market is fine as long as enough people are willing and able to pay their rates.

That was the whole point of this thread. Or the biggest one.

Disney HAS priced enough folks out of its deluxe resorts (and moderates) that it is planning on converting a significant number to timeshare rather than come up with a more realistic pricing model. That means enough people are NOT willing to pay their rates.

 

[invader]

Interesting. Never stayed there. Matter of fact, the only Waldorf I have stayed at is the original in NYC before Hilton decided to create a chain. But seeing how amazing the Hiltons are at both Bonnet Creek and the O-Town/O.C. Convention Centers, I can only imagine.

I've meant to get over to the WA for a meal or drinks since it opened and I haven't done so yet.

If you ever get the chance, try and stay either of the WA resorts in Boca Raton. The Resort (on the intercostal waterway) is what the Grand Flo should be aiming to be and the Beach Club is what the Contemp should be aiming to be. Totally different caliber of resorts when comparing to what Disney has let theirs become.

 

[GoofGoof]

Do you think that the "blessing" of size turned into a curse of sorts? I was pondering this today. I can stay at WDW for a week and not experience everything in the parks, but when you add things like Downtown Disney, water sports, golf, hard ticketed events, special events like F & W, two water parks, etc., etc., etc., it's absolutely overwhelming. It almost makes me wonder if things were overbuilt to a certain extent. I know that WDW wants to create a vacation product that appeals to all demographics, but is the addition of all the other stuff what has caused the erosion of the main attraction?

I am not actually sure of my own feelings about this. In some ways, all of the "stuff" is what has made me return again - there is no "one and done" at WDW because there is always something I have never done before (I admit that it took me until trip number 8 or 9 to actually visit Downtown Disney because I'm just not much of a shopper). On the other hand, it seems to have removed the focus from what we as fans see as important. TDO may see themselves in the hotel business or as a massive retailer, but that comes secondary because almost all visitors who want to see the parks and experience new attractions. Things like Downtown Disney and golf are nice, but I am not going to Orlando to visit Downtown Disney and golf. I may, however, golf and visit Downtown Disney if I am at WDW (okay, I will never golf, but my DH might).

I don't know, it just see that, at some point, the whole thing got twisted around. Maybe WDW is a victim of it's own success. They have to build all the peripherals to handle the crowds that see WDW as a rite of passage, and they have created a bit of a monster that they don't know how to run with both excellence and efficiency.

(I don't think this is off-topic, but I apologize if it is).

I think there is some truth to this. For a one time visitor it's virtually impossible to do everything in a week. Regular visitors may skip a lot at the parks and breeze through it in much less time. I think this connects back to what @flynnibus was saying about losing the feeling of the "vacation kingdom". There is so much to do that a large chunk of guests skipped things outside the parks that were offered. This includes services offered at the deluxe resorts. According to WDW74 the downturn started around Y2K when DVC took off. But some other things happened at the same time. In 1999 Disney opened its 4th gate which stretched guests even further and they also introduced fast pass. Fast pass was the catalyst that started the commando style touring. A few years later DDP was introduced and you now needed reservations for most sit down restaurants a lot of the year. The addition of a 4th gate, fastpass and DDP probably all contributed to a decrease in guests spending time outside the parks.

As others have pointed out, DVC owners are somewhat less inclined to follow this trend. You know you are coming back soon, so no need to do everything this trip. No need to buy DDP since you potentially have a kitchen or possibly a TIW card. DVC offers additional programs and events at the resorts for families to enjoy. My guess would be DVC owners spend more time at their resorts than cash hotel guests.

 

[WDW1974]

The topic keeps going off on the " Rich people who always stay in expensive hotels behave terribly." "Poor people who have never stayed in expensive hotels behave terribly." "Middle class people who sometimes stay in expensive hotels, and sometimes stay in inexpensive hotels behave terribly." "People who shop at Wal-Mart behave terribly."
"hey, I shop at Wal-Mart, and i don't behave terribly."

And so on. That's why the posts were deleted - class warfare at it's nastiness. Which wasn't really the topic. The topic is what is planned (more DVCs), why is it being planned, and what does it mean for the future of WDW theme parks AND resorts.

Well, I think the real issue (and have said it quite frequently here and elsewhere) is that WDW is a microcosm of our society and that people (all people, rich, middle, poor ... Walmart shoppers, Neiman-Marcus shoppers) are acting more and more boorish and self-absorbed.

The question really is what causes that and why (I would not so humbly suggest it is Wall Street's GREED IS ALL THAT MATTERS mentality ... but you are quite right, that wasn't what this thread was about or why it was started ... and, yes, I think you are doing a great job keeping this largely focused and I am only partly saying that because I want to see your kitchen! )

 

[WDW1974]

This post struck a chord with me. I have only visited WDW since 2000 so I'm relatively new to them. Even when I try to have a relaxing WDW vacation, I still tend to go into commando mode (insert obvious joke here). A basic package with hotel, park tickets, and dining is so expensive that it's hard to for me to justify doing things like water skiing because I will feel like I have wasted a perfectly good park day - a park that I spent a lot of money to be in.

I think that's why the deluxe hotels have suffered. How many times have you read on these boards "all we need is a place to sleep and shower"? I have said it myself. We spend so much on park tickets that it seems silly to waste time doing other things like sitting at the pool or visiting the spa or plopping down another $50 to go play miniature golf when we have valid park ticket. In turn, it seems like a lot of amenities have been removed because people weren't using them or they weren't bringing in enough profit to justify their existence. That in turn, makes people look for lower priced options because, as you said "WDW is just theme parks + hotels" not a true resort experience. Instead of steering people back into focusing on WDW as a resort with more to offer than just theme parks, they "resorted" to raising prices to cover the ground they lost while continuing to take away things that add intrinsic value. It's kind of a vicious cycle. They seem to realize that there is a problem (the commercial from earlier this year was focused more on the hotel stay than the parks), but I don't think they have hit on a good solution for this.

If all you truly need is a place to sleep for six hours and shower and you stay at ANY WDW resorts beyond, perhaps, the values at 40-60% off, then I think you are out of your mind. Truly.

Stay in LBV or on 192 or I-Drive for $50-100 a night at most, rent a damn car and save hundreds or thousands of dollars. Not a tough call.

But I don't know how often I'll read a trip report of someone who will talk about staying at the Poly, BW or WL and never going to the pool, never enjoying the resort at all ... who spends $300-600 a night like that? People with no respect for money or sense. Yes, that is my opinion. Yes, I am looking right at YOU! (no, not @crispy)

 

[WDW1974]

Your last statement is an apocalyptic leap based on the first part. Just because they are remixing DVC rooms vs Deluxe doesn't mean they won't reinvest in the parks. I think that is a false correlation. Remember there was a time when UNI didn't invest in their parks and sat back as WDW dominated the industry, folks seem to forget that. At some point the pendulum will swing back and WDW will be more aggressive and folks will forget that they didn't invest heavily right now. If UNI had been more aggressive sooner, Disney probably wouldnt have slowed down in the first place.

Why do you assume the pendulum will swing back?

 

[MinnieM123]

That was the whole point of this thread. Or the biggest one.

Disney HAS prices enough folks out of its deluxe resorts (and moderates) that it is planning on converting a significant number to timeshare rather than come up with a more realistic pricing model. That means enough people are NOT willing to pay their rates.

Count me in as one of the guests not paying the Disney Deluxe hotel prices anymore. During the years when I did, my reservation would be for 3-4 nights only, as that was the maximum my vacation budget would allow. But, I thought some of the Deluxe resorts were beautiful, so I went for it. Now, even a few nights are out of my reach.

I visit WDW once a year. For the past 3 years, I've been using my AAA discount over at the Swan, received some excellent rates, and the location can't be beat.

 

[Lord_Vader]

Certainly that is a huge (I'd argue.. 75% or more) of the reason for staying there and justifying the prices. But doesn't change the hotel experience or how it stacks up



nah, they'd just tack the 'value' on top of the old prices

When my parents took me in the 80s.. we stayed at the deluxes and I felt we had a 'vacation kingdom' experience. It also helps we used to always do the 'all inclusive' keys to the kingdom program so we had unlimited food and recreation. I learned to water ski at WDW, I used to love the mini boats, etc.

Since the 90s.. when I had to pay the bills... we've only stayed offsite, values, or shades of green. I wish my children would have been able to get the kind of experiences I had a kid -- but I don't think it's the choice of hotel that really is holding them back.

The thought that keeps striking a nerve for me is... the things that stand out to me the most about WDW as a child and young adult are NOT THE ATTRACTIONS. It was the sum of the parts, and frankly far more of the experience that wasn't rides. Be it dining, recreation, immersion, atmosphere, service, unique experiences, etc. It wasn't that WDW had POTC that made it such an exotic place to me compared to Kings Dominion... it was everything that made up my vacation that made WDW unlike anywhere else on earth.

To me that is the greatest crime... that Disney has steered everyone into being park commandos that WDW is just theme parks + hotels. We do it now too.. stay in the parks till all hours and do the parks everyday. It's behavior shaped by Disney's offerings and pricing models.

We do family vacations the way you used to based on your descriptions, rarely get to a park at open or stay until it closes. No longer do we try to squeeze every ride possible out of a single day and exhaust ourselves or get frustrated trying. It may be that the resorts are overpriced, the food is expensive for the quality and the parks don't have the newest, most bleeding edge attractions but the WDW is much more than the sum of its parts. We experience what the resort has to offer and enjoy it for what it is and take our time being there for the sake of being there, away from work and volunteer responsibilities and simply relax and go with the flow.

EDIT: We decided years ago to enjoy the journey instead of simply focusing on the destination. Too many people today focus only on the destination and forget to look around at the great big beautiful world around them.

 

[Nemo14]

Well, I think the real issue (and have said it quite frequently here and elsewhere) is that WDW is a microcosm of our society and that people (all people, rich, middle, poor ... Walmart shoppers, Neiman-Marcus shoppers) are acting more and more boorish and self-absorbed.

As a former teacher, I've observed that - a lot. But I have to say though that I've seen Disney lower their own standards too, which certainly doesn't help. Years ago, you'd never see a CM sloppily dressed or an executive in anything but well-tailored clothes - jackets, ties, slacks and freshly-shined shoes. Call me old-fashioned, but those things do matter, and reflect an attitude that makes a difference.

 

[WDW1974]

Interesting observation, I've not been going as long....just a mere 15 years but think I know what you mean.

Do you see this change in behaviours from park guests across the board, international guests (brazilian tour groups excepted) or americans?

More with Americans, but certainly not only them. ... A lot of bad behavior, or what we natives would chalk up to it, is simply the result of differing cultural norms. But sometimes being a stranger in a strange land can be used as an excuse too.

 

[WDW1974]

How is there a guarantee of such an agreement?

I'll answer for him with ''there isn't'' ... but it is reasonable to believe a similar situation would happen IF Disney ever did a P&R divestiture.

 

[WDW1974]

Yup... I've mentioned this before but people get so defensive that they think they can't be influenced at all they refuse to acknowledge that Disney's messaging and product choices have altered how people experience the property. The messaging, the pricing models, the advertising, they all work to shape this idea of what is important and what you prioritize. The biggest chunk is as you said... "We spend so much on park tickets that it seems silly to waste time doing other things" - people feel they need to maximize their park time so they "can do it all"

It was much different when there was only 1 and 2 parks.

The Vacation Kingdom of the World of say 1971-1996 was so very, very different than The Timeshare Kingdom of the World of today is.

And, yes, I liked the first version back (and Angie may have booked a future DVC stay for us today ... 'may'!) then so much better.

 

[RSoxNo1]

DVC is about two things: short term profits and trapping people. It has been amazingly successful at that, even after the 2007-08 financial crisis (one I'd argue is still going on, but that's another matter).

Trapping people on property...

• DVC traps people into vacations for 40+ years
• Magical Express traps people on property by eliminating need for rental car
• Magic Your Way tickets trap people on property by lowering the additional days to $10 per (previously as low as $3)
• Disney Dining Plan traps people on property by pre-paying for meals and preventing them from dining elsewhere (initially sold as a discount, now more of a convenience than anything)
• Fastpass+ traps people on property because they are guaranteed shorter lines on their favorite rides in advance of their vacation

All of these things are done instead of building new attractions that add content and organic growth to the parks.

 

[crispy]

If all you truly need is a place to sleep for six hours and shower and you stay at ANY WDW resorts beyond, perhaps, the values at 40-60% off, then I think you are out of your mind. Truly.

Stay in LBV or on 192 or I-Drive for $50-100 a night at most, rent a damn car and save hundreds or thousands of dollars. Not a tough call.

But I don't know how often I'll read a trip report of someone who will talk about staying at the Poly, BW or WL and never going to the pool, never enjoying the resort at all ... who spends $300-600 a night like that? People with no respect for money or sense. Yes, that is my opinion. Yes, I am looking right at YOU! (no, not @crispy)

I know you aren't referring to me personally because I would never spend $300-600 a night for a WDW resort - I would much rather save that money for my retirement and for my kids' college fund. I have said many times that I was amazed at people on the "other board" who were quite open about skipping a mortgage payment or going into major debt to take a WDW vacation. An offsite hotel or a WDW value resort just doesn't cut it with people like.

 

[lazyboy97o]

I'll answer for him with ''there isn't'' ... but it is reasonable to believe a similar situation would happen IF Disney ever did a P&R divestiture.

I can see why Disney would want such stipulations, but they've spent years now showing how so much of that is bad for business that you'd need someone very committed to agree to pay for reversing course.

 

[WDW1974]

You mean like how standards have been gaurunteed at Paris ? Where Disney is still half owner?

TDL's execution standard is because of OLC - not because Disney contracts

OK, again partial disagreement (all is well in the world again if not the World!) ... it's really both. OLC (and corps in Japan in that service sector) absolutely have higher standards and don't pay lip service to them and part of that is culturally ingrained ... BUT ... contracts signed between Disney and the OLC holds them to standards that are much higher than what Disney follows stateside. And this has been a point of friction between the two parties for years now.

 

[WDW1974]

On my June trip, I stayed at both Beach Club (for around $340 for one night to take advantage of a PIN that include 8 day park hoppers for free) and Royal Pacific (for $300 plus $20 for parking to take advantage of unlimited express pass). If not for the unlimited express pass, I'd never stay at RP again based on the hotel experience and how it stacks up. I'd stay at BC again without the free park hopper based on the experience and how it stacks up. Maybe it was just the rave reviews by the sunshine pumping wand strokers, but RP didn't come close to my expectations.

I'd never stay at either of those resorts for those prices. But I won't stay at BC for any price right now because it frankly is run like a Days Inn on the seedy side of O-Town.

But I just don't see a hotel in O-Town worth $300+ a night for a standard room. Not in that market.

 

[WDW1974]

Is there a way to just get a rundown of the news from @WDW1974 without scrolling through 1700 replies? Why don't we make a locked thread only for him to post then another thread to discuss and to ask questions? @wdwmagic

My news in this thread is all on the first two pages. Everything else is conversation/discussion spurred on by the above.