The Spirited 8th Wonder (WDW's Future & You!)

[PhotoDave219]

Please take note.

Any off topic derailing of threads, troll-like behaviour, inappropriate language (including starting out portions) will result in a 7 day ban. Continuing the behaviour after that period will result in a permanent ban.

Some have already been removed.

Please take this seriously as I intend to follow it through.

Interesting how 2 pages after you post this, the conversation got much more pleasant.

 

[TinkerBelle8878]

When CBR opened, rooms started at $64 a night not including any discounts like CMs/APs/FL residents/AAA etc.

In 25 years, all they have done is dumb the resort down (you have no idea how amazing the food court was in the late 80s/early 90s, everything was made fresh and the prices were cheap)

They had the best pasta primavera (or at least I thought so) back in the late 80s. Whenever I see it on a menu elsewhere, my first thought is the one they had in the CBR food court. And it was so well themed. But that was also pre- 'Value' resorts and their food courts. It was more a novelty and special then since the only non sit down snack bars/ fast food in the resorts (Contemporary, Poly, GF) were Captain Cooks, and Fiesta Fun Center.

 

[Computer Magic]

Thing is, a lot of us do live in the real world most of the time - and for the life of me I can't figure out where the demand for more DVC is coming from.

Eventually, they have to hit bottom somewhere - because the audience for these just cannot be infinite.

I know folks from all walks of life, many of them who can afford such things (really afford them - I tend to think that if one has to finance leasing in to DVC, it may not really be in their price range, but as we all know folks buy vehicles and homes all the time that are really out of their means). And I cannot figure out where all these folks are coming from. I mean, I get that the points can be used a lot of different places (which, to be honest, is sad in and of itself - that a huge benefit is that you can stay somewhere other than Disney - no wonder the parks are ignored so badly), but even then - I just don't get it, unless you are someone who goes to WDW most years and stays in Deluxes to begin with.

First, the folks that can afford it generally aren't the types of regularly visiting WDW guests year after year. Most people of a certain financial point I've found look down on Disney for more than the occasional "we have to take the kids at least once" excursion.

Second, it is not an "investment" - most folks I know that buy timeshares do so as a functional investment. A DVC is a club, by it's very nature it loses equity every year until it expires. A real timeshare can be sold, often at a profit, and can be passed down to heirs, etc., as it's actually partial ownership. I just don't see how *that* many folks want to lease the "magic" for the prices they charge.

Is it really so many "low information" leasers or folks who finance it away? I just don't see that many folks gambling on the future like that (especially since I believe there is no cap on how much "maintenance" Disney can continue to charge for the life of the lease).

What am I missing here? I get some folks love Disney and it works for them - more power to 'em - but I just don't see that being this vast audience they can continue to get to sign long-term leases on vacation points.

(edited for clarity)

A few thoughts on regular deluxe room being converted to DVC.

This is short term thinking on Disney part, sadly the way Wall Street thinks. The theme parks drive the necessity for rooms. If there aren't park investments, people don't come to the resorts.

Oh but someone at Disney had a bright idea. Let's get people into the rooms and then they will go to the park. Here my friends, we have DVC. Really back .

Now all those rooms built in the 90's sit empty. So another Disney bright idea. We can get immediate cash by converting those empty rooms to DVC. Short term thinking which Wall Street will love. See Iger goal (before retiring) is to get DIS stock price to $100 per share at all cost, even the future.

Long term thinking would be, invest into the parks and we can fill those rooms sitting empty at a better price.

The bottom dropped out of DVC a few years ago, due to foreclosures. See when unemployment occurs, people will default on their DVC so to feed the family. But hey, Disney gets the DVC and can resale.

Disney attacked the resale of DVC by limiting "owners'' where they can use their points.

DVC is for Disney and not the guest. DVC really hurt the guest in many ways. The only thing a guest gets is reduced rate to stay in deluxe. The reduce rate can actually be debated.

As a fan of WDW, this concerns me. Disney plans a magic trick instead of magic to get us into the parks. instead of investments.

 

[Quinnmac000]

DVC is a great business for Disney especially in the case of a global depression or recession occurs because now they have people locked in who don't want to lose their points so they are forced to go down and use them or sell them to get someone else to use them. If you are already down there, why not stop into Disney Parks or go to Disney Springs, I mean you already are here spend more money. Its kinda genius to be honest. The fact is most people think about the now. Oh yes, everything is going to work out well in the future and we will go to Disney every year or every other year not thinking about most of the outside factors. The only time I would remotely invest in DVC is in bad economic times because the prices would be a steal not semi-decent times.

 

[tirian]

I have one question for you.

Have you stayed at a deluxe resort or DVC in the last 5 years?

I have. With 50%–60% off rack rates, I stayed at every deluxe resort and some DVCs multiple times with visiting family members. I could justify $150–$180/night, but I would never pay rack rate. The rooms were often filthy. At OKW, I once had to call for a transfer because the windows and AC vents were covered in mold. The BWV had carpet that was peeling up from the floor.

Proper deluxe resorts were often worse.

At the GF, a bedpost was broken and fell over. The BC carpet and furniture are disgusting. The Boardwalk has no dining options except what's outside, which is useless during rainstorms. The Poly was completely outdated and overrun with tourists. The main pool at the CR was filthy and unimpressive; we sneaked into the BLT pool instead. AKL is so far away, you might as well stay off property. WL had a broken faucet. Another stay at the GF included a broken toilet.

My list of deluxe problems goes on and on. Why'd we stay there? Because of proximity and the more mature decôr. Also, at an average of $170/night, I always walked up to the front desk and politely demanded a new room.

Disney charges obscene prices and pretends their properties are true deluxe resorts. I wouldn't give the GF more than 3 stars out of 5, and that's only for less than $235/night.

Let's not forget that the deluxe resorts share bus service, which means you pay out the nose AND don't get direct service to your hotel. Regular routes: WL/VWL/GF/VGF on one bus; Poly/CR/BLT on another; Swan/Dolphin/BW/BWV share; YC/BC/BCV cram together. Saratoga Springs gets one bus to the MK and one to DHS every 40 minutes. AKL runs on 45- to 60-minute intervals.

Those monorails have shortened operating hours for monorail resort guests.

IMO the best-kept hotels are AoA (new of course), POP, and POFQ.

This thread from @WDW1974 is important because it emphasizes that Disney is relying on a timeshare strategy instead of long-term innovation and growth to support WDW. And you know what? Disney isn't even good at operating hotel rooms.

I realize that people keep claiming that the company is only concerned with short term investments, but the reality is different. These people 'hate' MM+, so they ignore that even though that pile of cash was clearly a long term investment, as was building NFE. Heck, the OP claims that converting hotel rooms is a short term investment when in reality it is a long term play to serve this segment. If the OP is correct that they have had problems filling deluxe rooms (or about practically anything that flows out of his gob), then he should see this change as a positive for the company, but that wouldn't fit into his world view.

 

[Computer Magic]

I have one question for you.

Have you stayed at a deluxe resort or DVC in the last 5 years?

I have. With 50%–60% off rack rates, I stayed at every deluxe resort and some DVCs multiple times with visiting family members. I could justify $150–$180/night, but I would never pay rack rate. The rooms were often filthy. At OKW, I once had to call for a transfer because the windows and AC vents were covered in mold. The BWV had carpet that was peeling up from the floor.

Proper deluxe resorts were often worse.

At the GF, a bedpost was broken and fell over. The BC carpet and furniture are disgusting. The Boardwalk has no dining options except what's outside, which is useless during rainstorms. The Poly was completely outdated and overrun with tourists. The main pool at the CR was filthy and unimpressive; we sneaked into the BLT pool instead. AKL is so far away, you might as well stay off property. WL had a broken faucet. Another stay at the GF included a broken toilet.

My list of deluxe problems goes on and on. Why'd we stay there? Because of proximity and the more mature decôr. Also, at an average of $170/night, I always walked up to the front desk and politely demanded a new room.

Disney charges obscene prices and pretends their properties are true deluxe resorts. I wouldn't give the GF more than 3 stars out of 5, and that's only for less than $235/night.

Let's not forget that the deluxe resorts often share bus service, which means you pay out the nose AND don't get direct service to your hotel. Regular routes: WL/VWL/GF/VGF on one bus; Poly/CR/BLT on another; Swan/Dolphin/BW/BWV share; YC/BC/BCV cram together. Saratoga Springs gets one bus to the MK and one to DHS every 40 minutes. AKL runs on 45- to 60-minute intervals.

Those monorails have shortened operating hours for monorail resort guests.

IMO the best-kept hotels are AoA (new of course), POP, and POFQ.

This thread from @WDW1974 is important because it emphasizes that Disney is relying on a timeshare strategy instead of long-term innovation and growth to support WDW. And you know what? Disney isn't even good at operating hotel rooms.

I stayed at the Beach Club not a DVC in Feb 2013. The toilet flooded our room and 4 others around us. It was our last day and preparing to check out, which maybe explains why no one apologize to us...

 

[tirian]

@Lee @marni1971 @ParentsOf4

One thing saddens me greatly: in everyday life, I'm one of the most optimistic people you'll meet, but it's hard to be positive about TDO. I'm beyond disgusted with the way they're operating WDW.

Remember, I sat in many meetings and had quite a look at inside ops. The majority of managers and execs sincerely believe that cheesy, saccharine pixie dust and character M&Gs epitomize The Disney Way.

I guarantee that Epcot, DHS, DAK, and the water parks wouldn't exist if today's corporate culture controlled the company in the 80s–90s.

The worst part is that as long as Wall Street is happy and international tourists raise attendance, Disney won't do much to address the property's issues. Entrance turnstiles are still clicking.

 

[Lee]

@Lee @marni1971 @ParentsOf4

One thing saddens me greatly: in everyday life, I'm one of the most optimistic people you'll meet, but it's hard to be positive about TDO. I'm beyond disgusted with the way they're operating WDW.

Remember, I sat in many meetings and had quite a look at inside ops. The majority of managers and execs sincerely believe that cheesy, saccharine pixie dust and character M&Gs epitomize The Disney Way.

I guarantee that Epcot, DHS, DAK, and the water parks wouldn't exist if today's corporate culture controlled the company in the 80s–90s.

The worst part is that as long as Wall Street is happy and international tourists raise attendance, Disney won't do much to address the property's issues. Entrance turnstiles are still clicking.

We've (many of us) been saying that for years. It's great to have validation from someone who was actually on the inside, in the meetings, where this poison mindset breeds.

 

[tirian]

We've (many of us) been saying that for years. It's great to have validation from someone who was actually on the inside, in the meetings, where this poison mindset breeds.

I wasn't THAT far in!
I was just around for the presentations. (They were depressing!)

 

[SpaceMountain77]

With 25,000+ rooms WDW left the them park business years ago. They have been in the hotel business. They are now canabalizing their future hotel business by selling part of it off.

Disney's resort (hotel) expansion reminds me of GM's market segment strategy, a car for every purse and purpose. Prior to its recent history, GM had several nameplates, all of which targeted different price points and market segments. The tiered structure also created a consumer desire to move up the ladder from a Pontiac to a Cadillac.

Disney, essentially, did the same thing with its hotels. Moderates were introduced in the late 80s and values in the late 90s. To some extent, I suspect there are a number of families who enjoy the values but dream of a BoardWalk or Grand Floridan stay.

Again, up until recent history (circa 1980s), Cadillac owners would not revert to Pontiac or Chevy. However, in the Disney model, deluxe resort guests embraced moderates and, probably to some extent, values. Over the past few decades, Disney's core demographic likely has not changed, but their spending has changed. I doubt the introduction of a tiered resort system significantly broadened their demographic. Instead, because of pricing, guests' bookings shifted, resulting in Disney being stuck with rooms and now having to sell them.

In the 80s and 90s, Buick, Pontiac, Chevy and GMC competed with each other. Moderates and Values did not expand offerings, they created internal competition.

 

[stevehousse]

I wasn't THAT far in!
I was just around for the presentations. (They were depressing!)

What kind of presentations?

 

[tirian]

What kind of presentations?

Sorry, I can't (and won't) talk about those.

 

[tirian]

Disney's resort (hotel) expansion reminds me of GM's market segment strategy, a car for every purse and purpose. Prior to its recent history, GM had several nameplates, all of which targeted different price points and market segments. The tiered structure also created a consumer desire to move up the ladder from a Pontiac to a Cadillac.

Disney, essentially, did the same thing with its hotels. Moderates were introduced in the late 80s and values in the late 90s. To some extent, I suspect there are a number of families who enjoy the values but dream of a BoardWalk or Grand Floridan stay.

Again, up until recent history (circa 1980s), Cadillac owners would not revert to Pontiac or Chevy. However, in the Disney model, deluxe resort guests embraced moderates and, probably to some extent, values. Over the past few decades, Disney's core demographic likely has not changed, but their spending has changed. I doubt the introduction of a tiered resort system significantly broadened their demographic. Instead, because of pricing, guests' bookings shifted, resulting in Disney being stuck with rooms and now having to sell them.

In the 80s and 90s, Buick, Pontiac, Chevy and GMC competed with each other. Moderates and Values did not expand offerings, they created internal competition.

That's a perfect analogy! Moderate and AoA/POP parking lots have many BMWs and Volvos.

 

[Cesar R M]

Too bad John apparently doesn't want to be CEO of Disney. I really can't think of a more perfect man for the job.

I dont think John will be good as CEO.
a CEO is the one who directs a company financial. John is more lik a visionary with imagination.. he needs to fly..
If he somehow was elected CEO, I bet they will try to tie him down to a chair, force him to attend boring meetings and burn his sanity until he becomes yet another wall street drone.

 

[Jennifer66]

Disney's resort (hotel) expansion reminds me of GM's market segment strategy, a car for every purse and purpose. Prior to its recent history, GM had several nameplates, all of which targeted different price points and market segments. The tiered structure also created a consumer desire to move up the ladder from a Pontiac to a Cadillac.

Disney, essentially, did the same thing with its hotels. Moderates were introduced in the late 80s and values in the late 90s. To some extent, I suspect there are a number of families who enjoy the values but dream of a BoardWalk or Grand Floridan stay.

Again, up until recent history (circa 1980s), Cadillac owners would not revert to Pontiac or Chevy. However, in the Disney model, deluxe resort guests embraced moderates and, probably to some extent, values. Over the past few decades, Disney's core demographic likely has not changed, but their spending has changed. I doubt the introduction of a tiered resort system significantly broadened their demographic. Instead, because of pricing, guests' bookings shifted, resulting in Disney being stuck with rooms and now having to sell them.

In the 80s and 90s, Buick, Pontiac, Chevy and GMC competed with each other. Moderates and Values did not expand offerings, they created internal competition.

I like this analogy, but it is not what happened to us. While my family is probably not the core demographic (we only visit every few years), once we realized Disney's idea of deluxe did not mesh with ours (one mediocre stay at the GF was all it took), we decided off site was much more enticing. We will be staying at the Dolphin for an incredibly reasonable rate ($139 before resort fee) next month. Better amenities, better restaurants and lounges for a real-world price.

 

[SpaceMountain77]

I like this analogy, but it is not what happened to us. While my family is probably not the core demographic (we only visit every few years), once we realized Disney's idea of deluxe did not mesh with ours (one mediocre stay at the GF was all it took), we decided off site was much more enticing. We will be staying at the Dolphin for an incredibly reasonable rate ($139 before resort fee) next month. Better amenities, better restaurants and lounges for a real-world price.

In keeping with the analogy, it's the late 1980s and your family has decided to buy a Honda

For the price and location, I find the Swan & Dolphin to be a great offering.

 

[Jennifer66]

In keeping with the analogy, it's the late 1980s and your family has decided to buy a Honda

For the price and location, I find the Swan & Dolphin to be a great offering.

Exactly on both statements--especially if the Honda changes to a Subaru

 

[crispy]

Disney's resort (hotel) expansion reminds me of GM's market segment strategy, a car for every purse and purpose. Prior to its recent history, GM had several nameplates, all of which targeted different price points and market segments. The tiered structure also created a consumer desire to move up the ladder from a Pontiac to a Cadillac.

Disney, essentially, did the same thing with its hotels. Moderates were introduced in the late 80s and values in the late 90s. To some extent, I suspect there are a number of families who enjoy the values but dream of a BoardWalk or Grand Floridan stay.

Again, up until recent history (circa 1980s), Cadillac owners would not revert to Pontiac or Chevy. However, in the Disney model, deluxe resort guests embraced moderates and, probably to some extent, values. Over the past few decades, Disney's core demographic likely has not changed, but their spending has changed. I doubt the introduction of a tiered resort system significantly broadened their demographic. Instead, because of pricing, guests' bookings shifted, resulting in Disney being stuck with rooms and now having to sell them.

In the 80s and 90s, Buick, Pontiac, Chevy and GMC competed with each other. Moderates and Values did not expand offerings, they created internal competition.

I think it's because the differences between the Values, Moderates, and Deluxes just aren't different enough as far as things that matter to most guests. The differences between the deluxes and mods is fairly negligible in my opinion other than the monorail resorts, but the price difference is significant. A resort like Coronado Springs actually has most of the amenities that deluxe resorts boast about like a spa and a fitness center (which kills me - even places like a Hampton Inn have a fitness center). One of the biggest boasts is that you can access your room from an indoor hallway which actually cracks me up. When that's one of your biggest selling points, there is a problem.

I know that the value resorts get a lot of flack around these parts, but I think the transportation for a resort like the Pop Century is actually better than the options at the deluxe resorts. The bus transportation system has been madness every time we have used them at a deluxe. We usually just drive so we rarely use the buses, but my experience with Disney transportation at the values and mods have been much better than our experiences at the deluxe resorts. Plus, Disney resorts are so interconnected. I can stay at a value, but I can also still use many of the amenities that are offered at the deluxe resorts like the spa or having dinner at the restaurants there which means many people don't see the need to stay at a deluxe.

When it comes down to it, people are at the resort because they are visiting the parks. If TDO wants to make the resorts a destination unto themselves (as their recent commercials imply) then they need to make it worthwhile. When we stayed at Hershey Lodge a couple of years ago (which I supposed would be comparable to a Disney moderate or lower-tiered deluxe), they had a check-in desk for the kids, gave out free chocolate, had a schedule of organized activities throughout the day (not just just pool games and a movie), had characters randomly show-up in the lobby to greet kids (if they want parents to stay at the deluxe resort they should add this as an perk and only allow resort guests to access. My daughter still talks about meeting a the York Peppermint Patty in the elevator...lol!), they had miniature golf at the resort, etc. It made spending time at the hotel fun and made us want to stay there.

 

[ThemeParkJunkee]

Hehe...After my serious spreadsheet consideration of DVC (which I rejected), I opted to stay at POP. Went from BC my last trip (huge disappointment) to considering DVC (could not make the numbers work at all) to booking a Value resort. So I am one of those who could afford Deluxe, or DVC for Cash but choose not to. Disney is not very good at resort management. There are far too many complaints about service and amenities on numerous forums. Also, POP get pretty good reviews as a Value option. We shall see.

 

[yensid67]

I'm a little slow on this thread but here is my 2 cents worth...

Everytime I go to WDW I stay OFF SITE because of the prices To stay on property for the price Disney wants is outrageous in my eyes. What do you really need? A nice room, a place to shower, a place to sleep. THAT'S IT! You don't NEED a themed room each time you go to a Disney Park. For the very first time, yes, but after that, at least for me, the perks are not really perks! I would rather save $100+ than be able to get into or stay in the parks an hour before and after regular guests...WHOOPDIE DO! My 2017 trip is planned and we will be staying off site at one of the best hotels I have stayed at while traveling anywhere!