The Spirited 8th Wonder (WDW's Future & You!)

[DisneyDelirious]

But wasn't AL (MiceAge) successful in holding Disneyland accountable? (to a point?)

Disneyland has a rather large, local fan base. WDW has a much more diverse group of visitors, with the majority being folks who are once in a lifetime visitors, not as local, or not as educated on what it looked like or should look like. WDW is not a small personal park where a large percentage of the same locals grew up going to every week. WDW doesn't have a unified group large enough to hold it accountable. Even here, in this fan community, while we are passionate about our beliefs, we are geographically dispersed, vary in our frequency of visit, and represent only a small portion of the customer base.

 

[SpaceMountain77]

I absolutely agree that these were/are definite motivators for DVC sales at those resorts, plus monorail access. I don't think anyone doubts that Polynesian DVC will sell like hotcakes. But after that, Disney's logic truly escapes me. Why would anyone buy DVC directly from Disney when they could buy at the same resort via the resale market at 1/3 - 1/2 the cost? And spend DVC points at a moderate? Unless the points are significantly lower per night than any current DVC resort, my answer would be a resounding "no".

Also, it is worth noting that VWL opened in November 2000 and points have been available for purchase for almost 14 years. Even though Disney actively markets its recently constructed properties, one can still purchase points at any DVC resort. Some may have a waitlist, but DVC guides will gladly help a prospective member purchase an ownership share in a classic resort.

Now, if someone has not purchased VWL points in the past 14 years that they have been available, what will compel their purchase 2 years from now? I do not see how a renovated pool deck and reimagined Artist Point will command $150-165 per point.

 

[NearTheEars]

That is an excuse defending TDO - and Burbank- that management just love.

Springs is a jazzed up shopping mall. Where there used to be a shopping mall. I'm sure it'll be pretty just like my local mega mall, but just like my local mega mall it is just a shopping mall.

This to correct a mistake they made in the first place when they were trying to correct another mistake they made themselves when nothing needed fixing to begin with.

I'm coming 4000 miles. I want to ride exciting new rides and have amazing new experiences.

Shopping malls aren't one of them.

If a mall and Avland is all you have to be excited about then WDW is in worst shape than I thought. With respect.

Shopping is, however, very important to many international tourists, including the Brazillians that just overtook the UK in number of visitors to Florida last year.

http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN0F659N20140701?irpc=932

I would have, however, been way nor excited for an addition to DHS than DS.

 

[Pumbas Nakasak]

But will there be ice cream?

 

[Pumbas Nakasak]

Shopping is, however, very important to many international tourists, including the Brazillians that just overtook the UK in number of visitors to Florida last year.

http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN0F659N20140701?irpc=932

I would have, however, been way nor excited for an addition to DHS than DS.

Well it would explain the declining standards

 

[Figments Friend]

I had the fortunate opportunity to visit the Disneyland Resort over 70 times in 2011. There were many nights that I would stop by, after work, to have dinner at the French Market, stroll through the shops and enjoy a few attractions.

Although DLR has had its dark days, I always left Disneyland thinking that it is impossible to truly copy an original. The first time I returned to WDW, after my numerous DLR visits, I was somewhat disappointed because I realized that WDW is missing something that I long thought it had. WDW is missing a heart.

I have also been 'spoiled' by Disneyland over the last couple of years, and last year i realized it is now my Resort of choice as far as Disney Theme Parks right now stateside.
There is just something special and unique about it, and yes, it has 'heart' as you elegantly noted.

Since the late 70s i have visited and adored WDW. I used to visit yearly, sometimes twice or more times, particularly when i lived in Florida.
I am a serious EPCOT Center fan and loved that Park with a passion back in the day when i first experienced it in April of 1983. Blew my mind...and had a major impact on my life in a major way. The place was just so inspiring...the concepts being expressed then.
I still love EPCOT, but i have been saddened to see what has happened to the concept that once was and what we have ended up with to date.
The removal of much of the 'soul' of EPCOT has not helped much either, and the destruction of the Original 'Journey Into Imagination' Attraction will always be a wound within me that will never heal.
But i digress.....

I now adore Disneyland. I love the simplicity of the experience - reserve little, book nothing, just show up at the front gate and have fun.
That has become a rare occurrence now at WDW and i find the 'book everything in advance' aspect not really my cup of tea. Each there own, of course.

I still have a lot of affection for WDW, but it hurts to see what has become of the Property.
EPCOT will always be my 'home away from home' however.

 

[GoofGoof]

Regarding the original post and, specifically, the announcement of a VWL expansion, I am most interested in knowing the plan for the existing villas. As many of you may know, after nearly 14 years, the villas received a comprehensive hard goods refurbishment in the spring of 2014. While I have not seen the refurbished villas in person, photos and member reviews suggest that the refurbishment was done on the cheap. Moreover, the character and theme, which was previously present, has now been lost.

Given the upgraded design elements incorporated into the VGF and planned PVV, such as vaulted ceilings and marble tile, buyers will expect similar features in the expanded VWL. Unless the expansion is deeded separately with its own point chart, the existing villas would need comparable upgrades. Who would want to stay in a separate building, housing older villas, when one could stay in a newly created villa in the main lodge?

They have a model to follow with AKV already. They might make the point total a little lower for the older rooms if they are smaller or have less amenities. The new villas will have a separate deed that will likely extend longer than 2042. OKW already has this situation with 2 different expiration dates.

I wonder if the DVC units be all on a few floors (like AKL where they took the top floors) or if they will do a side of the lodge. From a cleaning and housekeeping standpoint it's probably easier to go with floors. It would also limit the impact during construction.

 

[Funmeister]

I am not sure how...just speculation at this point...but I wonder how WDW Good Neighbor Hotels play into this? Like I said...I am not sure exactly how but they are a nice safety net for when (IF) non-converted rooms sell out and need a place to put people.

Disneyland has a rather large, local fan base. WDW has a much more diverse group of visitors, with the majority being folks who are once in a lifetime visitors, not as local, or not as educated on what it looked like or should look like. WDW is not a small personal park where a large percentage of the same locals grew up going to every week. WDW doesn't have a unified group large enough to hold it accountable. Even here, in this fan community, while we are passionate about our beliefs, we are geographically dispersed, vary in our frequency of visit, and represent only a small portion of the customer base.

I know that...trust me....buuuuut....what does that have to do with utilizing WDW Good Neighbor Hotels as part of growing onsite DVC business?

 

[WDW1974]

While I absolutely don't want to get off-topic, since some brought up the recent renovations to rooms at CBR. All I can say is that they look very much like what you'd get a typical 3-star chain motel/hotel anywhere with some vaguely tropical theming.

I saw absolutely nothing special, nothing stunning ... nothing that would ever say 'this room is worth more than $115 a night tops' ...

Also, got a note from a trusted source on resort matters and she largely confirmed what I and @ParentsOf4 had thought about Yacht Club also being hands-off for DVC. They will go with additional BC capacity before they ever touch YC because of the convention business.

 

[WDW1974]

They are in a service industry - they are expected to maintain a quality image and service. They should not get praise for doing the baseline to stay afloat in the industry - especially given the differentiator they build the company on was being MORE and better. The rest of the world has caught up... And you want to pay them on the back for meeting the minimum. All the while their competitive differentiator has been lost because they treat water while everyone else is racing to catch up to them.

So, no I don't think praise is prudent when their job is to lead the company, not just do the minimum required and let their competitive advantage evaporate.

Absolutely.

What I see from Disney fans is a desire to grade the the company, its products and its management on a curve. That may have worked for me in high school calculus (the only subject I ever came close to failing as I was mostly an all A's type of student, shocking, I know) ... but Disney doesn't get 'As' for simply bringing its products up to very basic industry standards.

Anyone who travels with a modicum of frequency will realize that Disney isn't close to a trendsetter ... they are a follower.

 

[SpaceMountain77]

They have a model to follow with AKV already. They might make the point total a little lower for the older rooms if they are smaller or have less amenities. The new villas will have a separate deed that will likely extend longer than 2042. OKW already has this situation with 2 different expiration dates.

I wonder if the DVC units be all on a few floors (like AKL where they took the top floors) or if they will do a side of the lodge. From a cleaning and housekeeping standpoint it's probably easier to go with floors. It would also limit the impact during construction.

You should see the renovated rooms. http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=3233143

I certainly would not pay $150-165 per point for these villas if the design carries over to the main lodge. Villas at BLT and VGF are certainly more impressive and have the benefit of the monorail.

 

[WDW1974]

If all I cared about is $, I'd have someone prove to me that the bird in hand is worth the two in the bush over the long term.

That only works if you care about the long term. Look at the ages of most Disney execs from Iger to Holz to Kalogridis to Crofton etc. Why would they care about the state of WDW in 2024? They'll all be very long gone from the company by then. This is all about making money NOW. Today, tomorrow, this quarter, next. That's about as forward thinking as these folks get.

 

[Figments Friend]

The saddest thing is we have so many of the pieces in place...
- we know WDI still has talent (even if they are insanely expensive) from the DCA redo
- we know Disney has hot franchises, even disregarding all the WDI original ideas: Frozen, Star Wars, Cars, Indy, even Tangled
- we know people are willing to spend money in Orlando; see: Potter, Harry

We just don't have people running TDO/TWDC who believe it.

Agree.
The problem, of course, is that none of the 'purseholders' want to spend any significant capital to MAKE these things happen in a big way.
The top dogs are far more interested in keeping the numbers for Wall Street looking rosey, and the stockholders happy.
Spending massive amounts of money on something they consider 'not all that important' or more correctly, 'not a instant return of investment' is the main stumbling block that stops many a positive project from happening.
Everyone up in that upper executive league level is just looking out for themselves, and their main drive when it comes to handling the Florida Property is to invest in business moves that make both of those things appear healthy.
Spend little, up the prices for everything, and the falsely inflated numbers make it appear to the business types and the stockholders as if everything is going swimmingly at WDW from a financial standpoint.
There is little thought as to what the Guest Experience is like....this is not on the radar for many of them i am sure.

Creative types tend to worry about such things...or the folks in Park Ops who express a need for a new service or Attraction.
The business tycoons up in the Board Room don't concern themselves with such things...it's all about keeping the numbers looking just good enough to increase their bonus and make it seem to Wall Street everything is on the up and up.

Of course...in reality, the place could be falling apart and no one just reading a stock quote would be aware of this.
Thus why we see such issues crop up from time to time, or more recently, far more often.
It is a unfortunate cycle - Attention shifts from giving folks a great experience again and again to how much money can we save or how much can we make those Guests bleed.
The neglect of the properties eventually catches up after some time, and the Parks become a bit shabby, or lacking in some areas.

The bottom line is that as long as WDW is still listed as the #1 tourist destination and keeps pulling in decent enough sales numbers. not much will likely change.
I of course wish there were wiser attitudes within the Company that could balance out the chaotic internal political and business-minded maneuvers, but sadly most of 'those people' have either been fired, 'retired', or just outright left for greener pastures.

Not all is lost, however. I do still have some faith that things might turn around for the better at some point.

There are plenty of folks caged in at WDI that have rooms full of fabulous ideas just waiting for the 'purseholders' to open the checkbook and write some happy numbers to get a project started.
But it won't happen until new leadership takes the reigns, in my opinion.
I will let others express where they feel that 'leadership change' needs to happen ( TWDC, WDI, or both..you decide! ) but it NEEDS to happen soon.
Let's hope it is sooner then later.

There is only so much weight a camel can carry on it's back before it's legs give out.
WDW in my opinion is reaching a point where the camel is quaking at the knees...

 

[WDW1974]

One note, I received a trip report linked from another site about a trip to the Grand Flo Villas. It seems (shockingly ) that many of them are seeing signs of extreme wear and tear in less than a year (yes, I'm a poet). Apparently, Disney used cheap materials and workmanship and ... you finish the post since you know where it is going.

 

[Figments Friend]

That only works if you care about the long term. Look at the ages of most Disney execs from Iger to Holz to Kalogridis to Crofton etc. Why would they care about the state of WDW in 2024? They'll all be very long gone from the company by then. This is all about making money NOW. Today, tomorrow, this quarter, next. That's about as forward thinking as these folks get.

Sadly, all too true.

 

[SpaceMountain77]

Also, got a note from a trusted source on resort matters and she largely confirmed what I and @ParentsOf4 had thought about Yacht Club also being hands-off for DVC. They will go with additional BC capacity before they ever touch YC because of the convention business.

I am no Disney insider, but this is something that I have known for years. Although I have outlined the reasons why a YC DVC conversion is highly unlikely, no one on the DISboards ever believed me. Simply put, the YC convention business is exceedingly lucrative.

YC is truly the jewel in Disney's convention crown. A DVC conversion would have the potential of negatively impacting regular convention contracts and shifting business to the Swan and Dolphin.

Think all Disney gift shops are the same? Check out Fittings & Fairings Clothes & Notions.

 

[WDW1974]

Disney Seas is co-owned so its not like Disney Corp is paying for all of it which is probably why its so amazing. Cars Land is definitely a step-up.

Probably been corrected by now, but TDS (and the entire TDR) is 100% owned and operated by an unrelated Japanese corp. (the Oriental Land Company). ... Disney makes money off of licensing its IP for the parks and resorts and designing the place.

 

[danv3]

Just my take on the existing management philosophy/mass DVC conversion/etc (even current corporate paradigm that can be extrapolated outside of Disney). Here it goes.

Current management lacks personal emotional investment (PEI). PEI is an internal personal commitment to the product as it is perceived by the paying customer. PEI is not fanatical commitment as a cheerleader is to the football team. Currently, I see management practices stockholder equity investment (SEI). SEI is an internal personal commitment to the stockholders by means of stock price. SEI can be summed up as " $/share uber alles".
SEI promotes and rewards short term gains over long term vitality. If one looks at investment in respect to the cash flow statement, it can illustrate the difference between PEI and SEI.

The Cash Flow Statement is comprised of three parts. The parts are as follows:

1. Operating Activities
2. Investing Activities
3. Financing Activities

When building new attractions by investing, this is a negative in the Investing Activities category. Even if the investment is offset or surpassed by increases in Operating and Financing Activities.

• SEI will see negative or reduced Investing Activity as not acceptable as the expense of investment will have a negative effect on the current quarters financial performance.
• PEI will allow for reduced Investing Activity as long as there is a reasonable expectation that there will be an acceptable return in the future.
• SEI will see sale of assets as positive Investment Activity. (Didn't someone just sell land to Compass Rose?).

This is exactly the problem. Current management has no passion for running the world's pre-eminent theme park. All that matters is this quarter and the next.

I hope that the current "squeeze every penny" management style is a sign that they're trying to wring out the profits before selling off the division.

 

[GoofGoof]

You should see the renovated rooms. http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=3233143

I certainly would not pay $150-165 per point for these villas if the design carries over to the main lodge. Villas at BLT and VGF are certainly more impressive and have the benefit of the monorail.

Yeah, not a great look. The new HH DVC renovated rooms look pretty good though. Not sure if it's the same group of designers there, but if not maybe they should bring some of them in to work on DVC at WDW.

 

[WDW1974]

It's such a double edged sword. I start out trying to stay up with these threads, but life gets in the way, and I can't sit and read the 40 pages I've gotten behind on... And I hate jumping in the middle of things without reading all the background.

Which is a shame because I enjoy conversing with @WDW1974 (although the guy could pick up a drink tab next time around!). But he's turned into friggin' E.F. Hutton. So once these threads get out of control I usually just stand at the back of the room and watch the crowd clamor for his autograph and not get involved.

To be fair, I have trouble keeping up myself. It just goes to show you that no one reads (let alone posts) a thread I start. NO ONE!

And while he would gladly pick up a drink tab for you, he is mindful that he doesn't own multiple companies like some Spirits.

But he certainly enjoys your presence here. The more intelligent voices with worldly perspective we can have here, the better we all are for it.

Oh, I have also raised the price of a Spirited autograph to $150 (unless it's on a fanboi's body ... I do give a 20% discount for those!)