The Spirited 8th Wonder (WDW's Future & You!)

[disneydudette]

They can't sell the points for significantly less than current DVC but make them interchangeable with the current resorts. Why pay $165 for the new VWL points when I can pay $100 per point for a CBR moderate and trade in to get VWL anyway...

The other problem with this is Disney makes way less per point and the economics don't work for them. It's more profitable to just keep adding on at Deluxe resorts...

Disney isn't making any profit when guests turn to resale contracts and point rentals.

Right now... I can purchase 270pts at Vero Beach for $51/pt. At 7mo... I will have the exact same [DVC resort] options... as owners who just paid $165/pt for VGF.

Disney didn't pocket my $14k+ investment though. The previous owner did.

I can also rent... $11-$14/pt... with much greater flexibility and access at the 11 month window. Why pay $378+tax (30% off) a night at the GF... when you can pay $259/nt, including tax, at their villas?

Either way... I'm staying at a DVC resort for far less than what an original owner paid, and at no profit to Disney. These aren't 'new' concepts and are becoming growing trends... already quite frustrating for many owners.

Even with all that being said... I think Disney is after the illusion of an 'affordable' DVC... with buy-in's closer to $10k instead of $20k.

You're right... it doesn't make nearly the profit a Deluxe DVC would... but it WILL certainly make $$$ in a resort that struggles with capacity issues and of course in addition the Deluxe DVCs Disney continues to build.

In order for it's success... I do think it has to remain as close as possible to the "core" of DVC though:

Given that HH and VB at $115/pt... let's say CBR will be the same. Points at VGF should be substantially higher than what CBR would sell for anyways... there's a $350+/night difference between the GF and CBR... why would you possibly pay the same for such different home resorts?!

Those points should have the same rules as any other DVC points. This keeps them attractive to new buyers... but also to existing owners looking to increase their point inventory. Just because owners chose not to use their points at CBR, doesn't mean they don't enjoy the 25+ points at a lower cost.

Yes... New owners who purchased their points for $115 can use them anywhere at the 7mo mark... just like current owners who added points at $115... and resale owners who bought Vero Beach for $51/pt. That's the nature of the DVC beast.

Not sure how I feel about it all to be honest... but if executed well... It will be the first time I'd ever consider buying DVC.

 

[GoofGoof]

Disney isn't making any profit when guests turn to resale contracts and point rentals.

Right now... I can purchase 270pts at Vero Beach for $51/pt. At 7mo... I will have the exact same [DVC resort] options... as owners who just paid $165/pt for VGF.

Disney didn't pocket my $14k+ investment though. The previous owner did.

I can also rent... $11-$14/pt... with much greater flexibility and access at the 11 month window. Why pay $378+tax (30% off) a night at the GF... when you can pay $259/nt, including tax, at their villas?

Either way... I'm staying at a DVC resort for far less than what an original owner paid, and at no profit to Disney. These aren't 'new' concepts and are becoming growing trends... already quite frustrating for many owners.

Even with all that being said... I think Disney is after the illusion of an 'affordable' DVC... with buy-in's closer to $10k instead of $20k.

You're right... it doesn't make nearly the profit a Deluxe DVC would... but it WILL certainly make $$$ in a resort that struggles with capacity issues and of course in addition the Deluxe DVCs Disney continues to build.

In order for it's success... I do think it has to remain as close as possible to the "core" of DVC though:

Given that HH and VB at $115/pt... let's say CBR will be the same. Points at VGF should be substantially higher than what CBR would sell for anyways... there's a $350+/night difference between the GF and CBR... why would you possibly pay the same for such different home resorts?!

Those points should have the same rules as any other DVC points. This keeps them attractive to new buyers... but also to existing owners looking to increase their point inventory. Just because owners chose not to use their points at CBR, doesn't mean they don't enjoy the 25+ points at a lower cost.

Yes... New owners who purchased their points for $115 can use them anywhere at the 7mo mark... just like current owners who added points at $115... and resale owners who bought Vero Beach for $51/pt. That's the nature of the DVC beast.

Not sure how I feel about it all to be honest... but if executed well... It will be the first time I'd ever consider buying DVC.

I would assume they would account for the lesser quality in room by making the per night points slightly lower instead of charging less per point to buy in. GF costs more than CR when you pay for a cash room but the price per point for those 2 DVCs was virtually the same when they sold them. They just charge more points per night for a room at VGF.

The resale market is not really a concern for DVC. Their sales people are largely selling to a different audience. I would guess a very large percentage of people who buy DVC direct from Disney don't even know the resale market exists. Direct from Disney points exist at all of the resorts and the older resorts do have a lower price than the ones actively marketed but they don't advertise this. When someone takes a tour and hears about VGF they don't then tell them they can buy at HH for $50 per point less and still trade in. It exists but it's not advertised. If a customer is aware of both the direct and resale market why would they want to buy direct from Disney for $100 and have a "moderate" as their home resort when they could buy resale at a bunch of WDW resorts for in the $70s.

Disney is not struggling to sell DVC points at the current price. They have no incentive to create a less expensive version of DVC that would be much less profitable. If they built a DVC at CBR similar in size to BLT and had about 6M points to sell, offering those points at $100 instead of $165 would reduce Disney's profit by almost $400M. It would be a lot more profitable to spend the money to make the rooms Deluxe quality so they could sell them at the full price. BLT had almost 6 million points and cost only $200M to build.

Looking at it from the standpoint of people who would like to buy into DVC cheaper I can see the appeal of a moderate priced DVC, but Disney is not looking at it that way.

 

[disneydudette]

The resale market is not really a concern for DVC. Their sales people are largely selling to a different audience. I would guess a very large percentage of people who buy DVC direct from Disney don't even know the resale market exists...

If a customer is aware of both the direct and resale market why would they want to buy direct from Disney for $100 and have a "moderate" as their home resort when they could buy resale at a bunch of WDW resorts for in the $70s.

I think you some what 'answered' your own comment... a large portion of buyers have no idea resale (or cheaper resort options) exist... which is similar to my understanding as well.

An uniformed buyer will simply buy, even at $165/pt, but I'm betting 'most' will walk away due to that price point... and few of those will ever look to resale.

If DVC had resort options at different price per points... how many who would have initially walked... end up buying?

As an informed buyer, we've certainly debated resale... but in the end... I really don't want to buy 200+ points to spend 100+ a week to stay at a deluxe DVC resort. That still feels like 'over spending' to me given the product Disney is offering.

I think for us... having a more affordable price per point with less points needed... even if it meant staying at Moderate level... would be the biggest draw. Unlikely I'm sure... but hey... I can dream!

 

[GoofGoof]

I think you some what 'answered' your own comment... a large portion of buyers have no idea resale (or cheaper resort options) exist... which is similar to my understanding as well.

An uniformed buyer will simply buy, even at $165/pt, but I'm betting 'most' will walk away due to that price point... and few of those will ever look to resale.

If DVC had resort options at different price per points... how many who would have initially walked... end up buying?

As an informed buyer, we've certainly debated resale... but in the end... I really don't want to buy 200+ points to spend 100+ a week to stay at a deluxe DVC resort. That still feels like 'over spending' to me given the product Disney is offering.

I think for us... having a more affordable price per point with less points needed... even if it meant staying at Moderate level... would be the biggest draw. Unlikely I'm sure... but hey... I can dream!

Most people probably do walk away. DVC spends more on sales expenses then they spend on building the actual resorts. This isn't uncommon in the timeshare industry either. A large portion of expense is always going to be selling the timeshares.

I agree that they could probably get more people to buy in if the price was lower. The question is would it be more or less profitable? Right now while they are still selling DVC points pretty easily it's not necessary. Maybe in the future if they run out of buyers they will look into it.

I think that the concept of building DVC at CBR is more a way to increase demand at the moderate resorts by reducing supply and also a way to cut costs for the resort itself since part of the common costs would be covered by maintenance fees. Disney can increase revenues by offering less discounted cash rooms at CBR and at the same time cut costs. This makes CBR a lot more profitable and indirectly increases demand at the other moderates by taking a chunk of moderate rooms out of circulation. The cherry on top for Disney is the profit they make from selling the DVC points. If this rumor came true and they followed the model used at Poly and now what it looks like they are doing with WL they will have a CBR resort refurb and clean up a lot of issues at the resort before starting to actively market DVC there.

 

[asianway]

Disney isn't making any profit when guests turn to resale contracts and point rentals.

Right now... I can purchase 270pts at Vero Beach for $51/pt. At 7mo... I will have the exact same [DVC resort] options... as owners who just paid $165/pt for VGF.

Disney didn't pocket my $14k+ investment though. The previous owner did.

I can also rent... $11-$14/pt... with much greater flexibility and access at the 11 month window. Why pay $378+tax (30% off) a night at the GF... when you can pay $259/nt, including tax, at their villas?

Either way... I'm staying at a DVC resort for far less than what an original owner paid, and at no profit to Disney. These aren't 'new' concepts and are becoming growing trends... already quite frustrating for many owners.

Even with all that being said... I think Disney is after the illusion of an 'affordable' DVC... with buy-in's closer to $10k instead of $20k.

You're right... it doesn't make nearly the profit a Deluxe DVC would... but it WILL certainly make $$$ in a resort that struggles with capacity issues and of course in addition the Deluxe DVCs Disney continues to build.

In order for it's success... I do think it has to remain as close as possible to the "core" of DVC though:

Given that HH and VB at $115/pt... let's say CBR will be the same. Points at VGF should be substantially higher than what CBR would sell for anyways... there's a $350+/night difference between the GF and CBR... why would you possibly pay the same for such different home resorts?!

Those points should have the same rules as any other DVC points. This keeps them attractive to new buyers... but also to existing owners looking to increase their point inventory. Just because owners chose not to use their points at CBR, doesn't mean they don't enjoy the 25+ points at a lower cost.

Yes... New owners who purchased their points for $115 can use them anywhere at the 7mo mark... just like current owners who added points at $115... and resale owners who bought Vero Beach for $51/pt. That's the nature of the DVC beast.

Not sure how I feel about it all to be honest... but if executed well... It will be the first time I'd ever consider buying DVC.

The problem with VB or HH is the distinct possibility Disney could sell their interest to another timeshare company and remove them from their system. You would then be left with an ownership interest at a very nice, but non Disney offsite resort. You would then be playing the II/RCI trading game like any other timeshare owner

 

[crispy]

I am always shocked when people tell me they spend 5K+ for a Disney trip. For our October trip, we are doing YES program tickets (1K), CM discounted room at a CSR ($700), paying cash for food (dining plan no longer worth it) ($600 budgeted), and will drive instead of fly ($200 budgeted for gas). Our total budgeted amount for 6 nights for a family of 4 is $2500. We have rewards points which should cover the paltry amount of souvenirs that we buy. We could have also saved a few hundred by staying at a value resort.

All that to say, a Disney trip is never cheap (unless you are a certain Spirit!), but people can still have a nice vacation without mortgaging their house to afford it. In the past, we always insisted on the dining plan, but stopped doing it a couple of years ago because it was no longer worth it financially and because we were working hard to eat healthier. The result is a leaner body and a fatter wallet!

 

[Cesar R M]

There are a lot of ways to save money. It cost me $1,400 for airfare for 4 on my last trip in 2013. We drove to Florida for less than $400 worth of gas the year before. If you live in Alaska or something that's not really an option, but for me coming from PA I could save $1,000 just by driving.

Even if you have to factor food (on the road), tires, and maybe a room to sleep?

 

[lazyboy97o]

Even if you have to factor food (on the road), tires, and maybe a room to sleep?

There are a lot cheap food options along the highways, tires don't wear out that quickly and the drive from Pennsylvania to Florida can be done in a day if desired.

 

[crispy]

Even if you have to factor food (on the road), tires, and maybe a room to sleep?

Airfare for my family would run about $1600 so we always drive. Plus, I really, really, really hate to fly. We have about an 11 to 12 hour drive that we can easily do in a day, and we drive a car with good gas mileage so it's not that much. We usually start our drive at about 3am in the morning and pack breakfast and lunch because we want to minimize stops as much as possible. We do occasionally leave a day early and need a hotel room once we hit Orlando, but I can usually find something cheap online a day or so before we leave.

Obviously, this only works if someone is within driving distance, but it is a huge money saver if someone can swing it.

 

[WDW1974]

I agree that plans should have moved forward......but....do you think that same strategy would work today?

Done right? Absolutely.

Like everything else, they've taken what was a premium product (just look at the size and materials used) at OKW and Walmarted it. That can fly in Rubetown (was that too harsh? good!) ... but you can't build a cheap timeshare resort in Vail or Newport Beach or Times Square.

 

[Cesar R M]

I am always shocked when people tell me they spend 5K+ for a Disney trip. For our October trip, we are doing YES program tickets (1K), CM discounted room at a CSR ($700), paying cash for food (dining plan no longer worth it) ($600 budgeted), and will drive instead of fly ($200 budgeted for gas). Our total budgeted amount for 6 nights for a family of 4 is $2500. We have rewards points which should cover the paltry amount of souvenirs that we buy. We could have also saved a few hundred by staying at a value resort.

All that to say, a Disney trip is never cheap (unless you are a certain Spirit!), but people can still have a nice vacation without mortgaging their house to afford it. In the past, we always insisted on the dining plan, but stopped doing it a couple of years ago because it was no longer worth it financially and because we were working hard to eat healthier. The result is a leaner body and a fatter wallet!

Well imho, not everyone has access to "CM" discounts.
I know there are discounts there and there, but a lot of people do not have full access to them.

 

[WDW1974]

Never mind DVC, Disney's real 'best kept secret' is the Tokyo parks - no-one would say the USA parks are better if they knew how good the Japanese parks were, but Disney tries to pretend they don't even exist and does its best to keep Americans from going overseas, and peddling the myth that a Deluxe trip to WDW is always cheaper than one to Tokyo, because they make no money from Tokyo guest spending.

Yet for most people the cost of three or four nights $500 rack rate at the Poly easily offsets the expensive flight to Japan, especially when you consider how cheap Tokyo park tickets are, and accomodation can be had for the same price as a WDW Moderate, but Disney doesn't want its richest fans to know this! They'd rather keep them on home turf where they make all the moolah!

Absolutely, do you know how few people knew TDL existed in the 1980s? Got some toes I can borrow to count on? Even in the 90s?

I'd argue that even in the fan community most had no clue what amazing wonders existed on a landfill on Tokyo Bay much before TDS opened. And Disney almost completely ignored its existence (except for a two-minute spot by its Ambassador on the Christmas Parade back in the live with Regis and Joan days) until about a decade ago when it simply couldn't because people were writing and posting pictures of it all over the 'net.

But when I hear about folks blowing $5,000-15,000 on WDW vacations, I am just blown away when they say that Tokyo is too expensive. They just don't have the information.

 

[WDW1974]

Given the ownership issues across the resorts I can see why this isn't possible, but I'm not talking about blocks of rooms selling points for their local markets I'm talking about being able to use 120-150 points for a week stay in Toyko, Hong Kong or Paris. I do understand the ownership restrictions, but you would think a company with a keen eye toward monetizing every square inch of space would have leveraged this at some point.

It is a bad deal. I found the link to the point charts. 200 is actually the lowest during value season in Paris. It goes all the way up to 800 which is insane.

http://dvcnews.com/index.php/dvc-program-85142/points-charts-29677/non-dvc-destinations-9332

Exactly. Honestly, if I knew I could use 150 points to stay at DLP or TDR I would easily buy another 100-150 points. But as it stands now. I would rather pay cash if I would decide to go to DLP at all, I plan on a Paris trip within the next 2-3 years. (If the French stop making really bad foreign policy decisions) Disney could solidify that trip and guarantee at least some of my vacation dollars. Otherwise I would just do normal touristy stuff and avoid DLP.

Disney has no real incentive to send Americans to its foreign resorts. Sure, it makes some money, but nothing like what it makes from WDW, DLR, DCL or even AbD. They quite purposely make it a bad value to use points on resort rooms overseas.

But, honestly, they make it a bad deal to use DVC points for anything that isn't DVC to start with.

 

[WDW1974]

Any CEO who would consider 17% of company revenue to be unimportant should be fired.

And at 17% of company revenue, there's no excuse for Iger to fail to spend considerable corporate effort to assure WDW's long-term health and success.

Returning to the point of this thread, as long as corporate Disney focuses on converting hotel rooms into timeshares instead of devising strategies to fill those hotel rooms with cash customers, I'll continue to pontificate that WDW is being run poorly.

Amen, brother!!!

 

[BrerJon]

But when I hear about folks blowing $5,000-15,000 on WDW vacations, I am just blown away when they say that Tokyo is too expensive. They just don't have the information.

Unfortunately low information guests are bread-and-butter for TDO. "Jeez that Imagination ride sounds good for the kids, better book one of them LinePass things".

 

[BrerJon]

Well imho, not everyone has access to "CM" discounts.
I know there are discounts there and there, but a lot of people do not have full access to them.

Staying offsite will give you cheaper rates than any discounted Disney room, and if you stay at one of the hotels by Downtown Disney you can walk to get the Disney transportation buses in less time than it would take at some of the larger resorts.

 

[GoofGoof]

Even if you have to factor food (on the road), tires, and maybe a room to sleep?

We found a Chipotle in Florence SC. Pretty much an amazing stop for food. If not there McD's works too for a once in a while thing. If you can't make it the same day rooms can be had for about $80 (a decent place like Hampton inn or Courtyard Marriott). For about $50 you can take your chances with a lesser chain. I can't really say about tires. 2,000 miles is probably about 3% of my tires so probably about $100 in wear and tear at most. The total cost of driving (excluding gas) is less than my cost to check 2 bags.

 

[GoofGoof]

Absolutely, do you know how few people knew TDL existed in the 1980s? Got some toes I can borrow to count on? Even in the 90s?

I'd argue that even in the fan community most had no clue what amazing wonders existed on a landfill on Tokyo Bay much before TDS opened. And Disney almost completely ignored its existence (except for a two-minute spot by its Ambassador on the Christmas Parade back in the live with Regis and Joan days) until about a decade ago when it simply couldn't because people were writing and posting pictures of it all over the 'net.

But when I hear about folks blowing $5,000-15,000 on WDW vacations, I am just blown away when they say that Tokyo is too expensive. They just don't have the information.

Tokyo isn't necessarily too expensive for me just too far. I can barely tolerate a 2 hour flight to FL with my kids. When they get older I'm sure we will do it. I'm looking to hit all 50 states first with them before we go abroad. We're at least 1/3 of the way there.

 

[GoofGoof]

Well imho, not everyone has access to "CM" discounts.
I know there are discounts there and there, but a lot of people do not have full access to them.

I don't have access to CM discounts. Where I think the most money can be saved is on meals, rooms and souvenirs. Staying offsite is a huge money saver even if you rent a car and pay for parking since you can eat a lot of meals off property.

 

[GoofGoof]

Disney has no real incentive to send Americans to its foreign resorts. Sure, it makes some money, but nothing like what it makes from WDW, DLR, DCL or even AbD. They quite purposely make it a bad value to use points on resort rooms overseas.

But, honestly, they make it a bad deal to use DVC points for anything that isn't DVC to start with.

Trading in for anything other than another DVC room is generally a bad deal. It doesn't stop people from doing it, but it's still a bad deal. DCL is maybe the biggest scam going for trade in. I guess it's not a scam when the people trading in are knowingly doing it. Just a bad deal.