The Spirit Takes the Fifth ...

[Figments Friend]

Yep, this. I'm hoping he pens a book, I'd love to read it. He's got to be one of the most interesting characters who ever worked for WDI. I never bore of what he has to say.

I wish he'd say more!

If you ever get the chance to talk to him personally, he will be be more then happy to tell you his opinion on any topic you want to talk about.


I too also hope he decides to write a book...seems like something he would enjoy.
There has been talk about it in the past.

I remember some years ago when he attended Bruce Gorden's memorial service, he talked about how envious he was of how Bruce was able to go off and feed his creative energies outside of WDI by writing these marvelous and informative books about the Parks and WDI.
It was something he always wanted to do but just never seemed to have the time.
Perhaps now with him being somewhat 'retired' he will have more of an opportunity to do so.

I would imagine a book about his experiences and design lessons learned within his career at WED/WDI would be a great topic, but i can also totally see him writing a fascinating and unique 'history book' about Disneyland.
There have been others over the years, but Tony has a unique perspective that i think would make a highly entertaining read.

I cannot see him writing any kind of 'biography' about himself....but i could be wrong of course.
I think he would be more interested in sharing his knowledge about what he knows, has learned, or has experienced in his long career with the Disney organization then just telling his own personal story.

I definitely do not see him writing some kind of 'tell-all' book...although i am sure there are a LOT of folks out there who would absolutely love love love to read it!



Like i said, the man has a very unique perspective on matters and excels at expressing that in entertaining ways.

Tony should just 'go on tour'....maybe to promote his book when he finally writes it!

 

[Figments Friend]

At the risk of burying news, there have been delays in the Studios Star Wars project for multiple reasons, but understand the biggest one is the same thing that has kept Pandora in BLUEprints only: cost overruns on MM+. The BoD will not OK any new project for WDW (see Imagination) until NGE starts to earn back its billion dollar spend. Absolutely nothing has been OK'd beyond Pandora and that was greatly delayed -- and may well be further pushed back -- because of this boondoggle. So, those of you who love your MAGIC Bands? You can ride them instead!

Let me repeat there are two kinds of WDW fans: Those who experienced EPCOT Center and the rest.

Nice.
Thanks for the update.

Agree- EPCOT Center set the precedent.
Those who experienced it should feel good about themselves, as you were able to experience WDW's best era in all regards.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Correct me if I'm wrong but SDL is a licensed park, TWDC/WDI is building it being bludgeoned by the PRC every time they try to cheap out (They DESERVE their beatings) So Disney will only be collecting licensing fees from the park.

So I don't think large profits are on the horizon for this project.

Disney owns 43% of the project. Less than Hong Kong Disneyland but more than Disneyland Paris and Tokyo Disney Resort.

 

[alphac2005]

Same here...never knew what the heck a 'podcast' was until about that same time frame.
Kept thinking it was something related to Star Wars...ha ha..(pod racing broadcasting LIVE..!)

Regarding Tony's comments, it is always great to hear him speak his mind unbridled.
Now that he is somewhat on his own , i look forward to more of this.
Never get tired of hearing what he has to say about any given topic as he has some unique insights.

I think some fans may have misinterpreted his comments regarding IPs.
Some folks are taking it to mean he is all pro-IP layover attractions now..which is not necessarily the case.
His explanation of using familiar characters to help drive a story is a valid one, but there is a difference between doing a quality experience with such IPs and also just doing a cheap layover with no coherency.
It was interesting to hear his view on the topic.

The insights into his involvement in trying to bring Poseiden and a cheery 'grandpa farmer' character to EPCOT's original Living Seas and The Land pavilions i found quite interesting.
Using characters to help get the Guests' involved in a attraction experience on a more emotional level is a valid view.

I think the problem some have is that lately this direction has been lacking in some regards, thus why some are not overly thrilled with the IP overload taking place in some cases. The 'IP infused' attraction of late has a bad rep lately mainly because the execution or concept is weak and fails to engage the Guest.
As noted, there is a difference between a decent, quality driven attraction and one that is just a bare bones overly on top of a previous concept/attraction.


Now regarding the SDL project and Tony -
Well, if the DCA meetings story is true
( about him being purposely shut out of the big meet to pitch/propose ideas for the re-Imagining of the Park by certain parties with agendas...)
then yeah, likely so.
As we both know he was pretty much put on the shelf and forgotten about as far as being the 'go-to' man for major projects which still burns me.
Some say he brought it upon himself....but there is always two sides to every story.
It is worth seeking out the 'other story' sometimes...

I thought it was quite interesting that elements that he had in mind for Poseidon at The Living Seas actually were incorporated in Poseidon's Fury at IOA. I'd love to know the backstory on how they got there and if Tony Baxter had anything to do with that allowance.

 

[the.dreamfinder]

Disney owns 43% of the project. Less than Hong Kong Disneyland but more than Disneyland Paris and Tokyo Disney Resort.

But if they off the PRC...

 

[Figments Friend]

I thought it was quite interesting that elements that he had in mind for Poseidon at The Living Seas actually were incorporated in Poseidon's Fury at IOA. I'd love to know the backstory on how they got there and if Tony Baxter had anything to do with that allowance.

I personally don't think the two are related, but a interesting comparison.


Here are a couple of photos of the early concept model for The Living Seas, when Poseidon was very much a presence in the pre-show as a huge animatronic figure.
This would have been pretty epic to see in person, but ultimately it was rejected and a more science based concept took root.


The pre-show is the blue-ish area to the right of the entrance...
Poseidon is to the left , just above the entrance 'tunnel' to the Pavilion.




Here is a close up on the pre-show area, showing the huge Poseidon figure intimidating and then inviting Guests to explore his world...

He is the large pale figure to the left in this blurry photo...just above the entrance 'tunnel'.
His torso is on one side, his large fish tail on the other..making Guests have to walk across him to get to the Omnimover ride segment.

 

[alphac2005]

I personally don't think the two are related, but a interesting comparison.


Here are a couple of photos of the early concept model for The Living Seas, when Poseidon was very much a presence in the pre-show as a huge animatronic figure.
This would have been pretty epic to see in person, but ultimately it was rejected and a more science based concept took root.


The pre-show is the blue-ish area to the right of the entrance...
Poseidon is to the left , just above the entrance 'tunnel' to the Pavilion.




Here is a close up on the pre-show area, showing the huge Poseidon figure intimidating and then inviting Guests to explore his world...

He is the large pale figure to the left in this blurry photo...just above the entrance 'tunnel'.
His torso is on one side, his large fish tail on the other..making Guests have to walk across him to get to the Omnimover ride segment.

Great post, thanks! The reason that I bring up the relation is because he spoke of The Seas' Poseidon and then moving into a next room as you pass through a circular wall of water, which is exactly what occurs at Poseidon's Fury at IOA.

 

[lazyboy97o]

But if they off the PRC...

The Chinese would probably end up more hurt from that sort of action than Disney. They're big on the partnerships with existing companies and that sort of volatility could be crippling.

 

[Figments Friend]

Great post, thanks! The reason that I bring up the relation is because he spoke of The Seas' Poseidon and then moving into a next room as you pass through a circular wall of water, which is exactly what occurs at Poseidon's Fury at IOA.

Ah...cool...!
Well, who really knows...anything is possible.

The pre-show concept for the 'Posesidon' pre-show version of The Living Seas was impressive.
A description from the fabulous book 'EPCOT Center - Creating the New World Of Tomorrow" published in 1982 before the Park opened, and four years before The Living Seas opened :

-----------

"The Show begins in a cavelike area where special effts errily trigger man's atavistic awe of the unknown deep with the sensation of a approaching storm.
The "wall" of the grotto gradually closes behind us as the storm reaches it's full fury.
At length, out of a lighting bolt appears Poseidon, the Greek God of the sea, who will be the narrator for the rest of the journey to the Coral Reef ( the Omnimover segment of the attraction..).
Poseidon, who represents the power, strength,and uncertainty of the sea, calms the storm with a wave of his hand.
Then he reminds us that despite main's early superstitions concerning the waters, which are imaginatively reproduced in the splendid set he inhabits, it is the oceans that make our planet unique, that are indeed the cradle of life.

Despite universal fears, our narrator Poseidon continues, there were a few people with the fortitude and spirit to seek beyond; the sea god invites us to enter into that spirit - to "part the waves of understanding" - in the voyage to come.
There is another crash of thunder, and Poseidon pulls back a curtain, and we board a series of little bubble-like vehicles.

We are then guided through the stylized "Cradle of Life" in the sea sequence..."
( the Omnimover ride segment....)

-------------


What i find interesting is that in 1982 Disney was fairly confident enough in this early version of the concept that they included this through overview of the entire attraction in this published book...a good four years before it actually was completed.
I find that unusual, since what the Seas ended up being when it opened in 1986 was quite different.
I can understand how projects change and all...but interesting they were so sure this was the direction they were going to go.
So much so, they published it pre-build.

What is equally interesting is that concept art for what The Living Seas eventually became, the more science-based concept SeaBase Alpha, is ALSO included in the book.
So where we have a description of what ended up being the 'rejected' concept, we also have art of the 'accepted' SeaBase concept in the same chapter.
The early model photos i shared above in my previous post were from this same book.


This is a great book by the way....every serious EPCOT Center fan or purist should have this on their shelf.
Loads of early photos, and models...and lots of insights into that early production period.

 

[Soarin' Over Pgh]

When the deal fell through, there were actually some Imagineers around at that time that were actually VERY happy about that.
The reason?

They felt it would mean Disney would be forced to ramp up their creative juices again and go back to creating mind blowing experiences/attractions again due to the now obvious 'competition'.
They were excited about a possible Imagineering Renaissance about to happen.

.

That makes me incredibly sad.

 

[stevehousse]

Actually saw a post in the last week or so on some board (don't think it was this one) from a guest who claimed that when they checked their Photopass online, they magically had a Splash Mountain photo showing up in their stream, despite not having claimed the photo. Perhaps someone forgot to turn something off during operating hours after some testing?

This was me! I was at the MVMCP, absolutely no line at all. Walked the standby line right onto the line. Ride it, then got off. The next day when I checked my photopass account, that picture of me by myself on the ride showed up in my account! I never scanned my band or any type of photopass card! This also happened to me on Dinosaur when I used a ride switch pass, again no photopass card or MB swipe at all...

 

[Figments Friend]

That makes me incredibly sad.

Don't feel sad...
You have to understand the time frame the company, and WDI, was in at that time in the late 1990s/early 2000s.

A lot of folks in the creative ranks were chomping at the bit to be able to be let loose on some kind of major project.
Some may even say they were desperate to work on something of real substance.

At that time accountants and corporate suits were running rampant budget cutting on everything. It was rough.
Once spectacular plans were whittled away budget-wise until it was a pale comparison of what could have seen ( see DL's Tomorrowland 98' and DCA 1.0 ).
It was felt by some that Uni getting the HP rights would mean Disney would need to start spending big again on it's proposed attractions.


Some had hoped it would mean big projects would be allowed to blossom again within the halls of WDI due to the 'forced competition'...but alas, in some opinions that has yet to have really happened.

I can see how it would make you sad...but cheer up.
Time changes all things, even WDI.

 

[GiveMeTheMusic]

I read the Tony Baxter interview over again yesterday (instead of week by week, I re-read it all at once) and yeah, I'd just about die to see the plans that WDI had for Potter. Even though I'm not a fan of HP, Disney lost a great deal by letting that one slip. Billions of dollars lost, between attendance, hotel occupancy, HP conventions on site, and of course, more merchandise than you can shake your fist at. I wonder what they did have planned out, though. @Lee @WDW1974 has anyone ever actually seen the plans? Any details you can share ?

While I don't know much, I did have a friend who shared with me one of the proposals, which involved using a variant of the Midway Mania ride system to have guests go through "wand training", with a magical creature walkthrough zoo next door. Don't know how accurate that was, but it was underwhelming to me (to say the least).

I'm thrilled Uni ended up with the IP and not Disney, I just wish Disney would try and compete with it.

 

[doctornick]

With the HP deal falling through, some felt this would mean big projects would be allowed to blossom again within the halls of WDI due to the 'forced competition'...but alas, in some opinions that has yet to have really happened.

So, many on here have stated that that resort occupancy is down (resulting in more promotions being offered), guest spending is down, guests are spending less time in the parks, etc. The the estimated numbers for park attendence is way off (and much lower). In other words, things are not ideal at WDW and potentially on a downward projection. If that's the case -- if things are really as dire as some on here have painted -- why isn't Burbank goign out of their way to address it and reverse things? Even with the massive spending on MM+, I don't see why they would just let the cash cow known as WDW (and their dominant position in the market) erode without actively doing something.

 

[Figments Friend]

So, many on here have stated that that resort occupancy is down (resulting in more promotions being offered), guest spending is down, guests are spending less time in the parks, etc. The the estimated numbers for park attendence is way off (and much lower). In other words, things are not ideal at WDW and potentially on a downward projection. If that's the case -- if things are really as dire as some on here have painted -- why isn't Burbank goign out of their way to address it and reverse things? Even with the massive spending on MM+, I don't see why they would just let the cash cow known as WDW (and their dominant position in the market) erode without actively doing something.

It is MM+ that is slowing down the proposed progress.
Because so much capex is being blown ...er...spent on it, Burbank likely does not want to invest any more serious money into WDW until MM+ starts bouncing back some profits.
I think Spirit already touched on this earlier in the thread.
Ah yes...he did :

"At the risk of burying news, there have been delays in the Studios Star Wars project for multiple reasons, but understand the biggest one is the same thing that has kept Pandora in BLUEprints only: cost overruns on MM+. The BoD will not OK any new project for WDW (see Imagination) until NGE starts to earn back its billion dollar spend. Absolutely nothing has been OK'd beyond Pandora and that was greatly delayed -- and may well be further pushed back -- because of this boondoggle. So, those of you who love your MAGIC Bands? You can ride them instead!"

 

[ford91exploder]

But if they off the PRC...

Well then PRC has 100% ownership share...

 

[ford91exploder]

It is MM+ that is slowing down the proposed progress.
Because so much capex is being blown ...er...spent on it, Burbank likely does not want to invest any more serious money into WDW until MM+ starts bouncing back some profits.
I think Spirit already touched on this earlier in the thread.
Ah yes...he did :

"At the risk of burying news, there have been delays in the Studios Star Wars project for multiple reasons, but understand the biggest one is the same thing that has kept Pandora in BLUEprints only: cost overruns on MM+. The BoD will not OK any new project for WDW (see Imagination) until NGE starts to earn back its billion dollar spend. Absolutely nothing has been OK'd beyond Pandora and that was greatly delayed -- and may well be further pushed back -- because of this boondoggle. So, those of you who love your MAGIC Bands? You can ride them instead!"

Translation No new attractions for WDW EVER, MM- will never pay back its spend it will however drive customers away. Along those lines we had cut christmas week from 10 days to 4 and even that is too long at WDW 2.0

 

[flynnibus]

Ah...cool...!
Well, who really knows...anything is possible.

The pre-show concept for the 'Posesidon' pre-show version of The Living Seas was impressive.
A description from the fabulous book 'EPCOT Center - Creating the New World Of Tomorrow" published in 1982 before the Park opened, and four years before The Living Seas opened :

Thx - just ordered the book.

 

[ford91exploder]

The Chinese would probably end up more hurt from that sort of action than Disney. They're big on the partnerships with existing companies and that sort of volatility could be crippling.

Not if the PRC declared that TWDC's IP was fair game and they would no longer honor TWDC copyright within China. TWDC would be in a world of hurt.

 

[PhotoDave219]

Not at all, we can argue the definition of professional till the cows come home, but, when you look at the other options, it's definitely the best deal. Have you seen what wedding photographers charge for a 4x6? $25-$50!

I know wedding photographers (friends) that charge $7,500-$10,000. Or more.

So while you can continue to look for a deal, you get what you pay for. If you're going to and moan about about the cost of a print, you chose the wrong photographer in the first place.

(For reference, I use AdoramaPix.com for my fulfillment. I usually mark up by at least double)