The problem with the monorail system

[wm49rs]

You're still here? I'm kidding!

And I would ask the same of all your selves. But questions about this thread still remain....

 

[dadddio]

Every single time that I've used the monorail, it dropped me off at a different location then I started. I was transported.

 

[slappy magoo]

The problem with the monorail system at WDW is that is was never designed to be a transportation system.

The Magic Kingdom loop was designed to keep the MK parking lot, the MK itself, and the MK hotels connected in a loop but at a safe distance apart so that guests magically leave the troubles and stress of the real world behind and enter the magic which is WDW, kinda like the Twilight Zone, but a good dimension.

AND provide transportation. Just because it's not the most efficient kind of transportation doesn't mean that it doesn't provide a transportation service.

The EPCOT loop basically gives people who park at the MK parking lot a choice of new dimensions to choose from: magical goodness or futurist internationalism.

Also, at the time Epcot was built, and it was just the two parks to choose from, it was a way to ensure you didn't have to re-park your car. People who wanted to start their day in Epcot and end in MK could park at TTC monorail over and then monorail back on A MONORAIL without dealing with their car again for the entirety of their day. And it was a way to let guests who were staying monorail resorts get to Epcot in a manner that befit the cost of staying in a monorail resort without having to get on something as common as a bus or use their own car. It still provides those services.

None really provide transportation as its function. You don't need to ride the monorail to go to EC, if you park at EC, for example. And you can't take the monorail from the MK loop to go directly to EC. You can go from MK to EC via monorail, but you have to switch trains and go on two lines in order to do so, proving that the system was never designed as a convenient transportation alternative to buses in this function.

Again, just because there are more efficient ways to get somewhere , this doesn't mean the monorail ceases to be a functional way to get from TTC to Epcot. "Everyplace is walking distance if you have the time" - Steven Wright

When I was there at WDW a few weeks ago, while at the TTC, I was thinking about this, looking up at the sign, pointing the way to the train going to the MK and another pointing to entrance for the train to EC. This is the only loading area in all of WDW where you can choose the monorail spur location to ride on. But the TTC is neither here or there. It is a transportation hub at the edge of nowhere with a big parking lot with a speedway in the middle. Yet, this "place" out in the middle of nowhere has two monorail loops going to it. Several ideas ran through my head as to what could be done to make sense of this enigma. I'll get into that later.

It is also the de facto parking lot for the Magic Kingdom. People relying on their own cars to get to the MK park at the TTC. It might not be much to look at, but that's its purpose. That's why it's the TRANSPORTATION and Ticket CENTER. The center of Transportation needs at WDW for quite a while before other parks opened up.

Leaving EC, my sister and I ran to catch the monorail as it entered the station. Entering the train, my sister asked the CM if this train was going to the MK. The CM said, "No, it's going to..."

I interrupted, "Yes, I know... The Transportation and Ticket Center."

The CM confirmed and my sister insisted that we were on the wrong train until I explained the whole TTC thing to her.

Thank heavens you were there. Otherwise the CM may have needed to explain that to your sister which may have taken an additional 10 seconds or so. I mean "No ma'am, this monorail goes to the Transportation and Ticket Center WHERE YOU MUST TRANSFER TO THE MONORAIL OR THE FERRY THAT TAKES YOU TO THE MAGIC KINGDOM." I mean, really, who has time for that crap?

The reason I bring this up is so that if you can understand the concept of the EC monorail loop never servicing the MK, then the MK Parking Lot must be misnamed because it serves the TTC (not the MK). In other words, the MK has no parking and you must park at a nearby transportation hub and take a train, bus, or ferry in order to get there.

Except the EC monorail loop can, indeed, service the MK. They're called Park Hoppers. Meanwhile, this bit about the history of the TTC might help with your questions: http://land.allears.net/blogs/jackspence/2011/04/transportation_and_ticket_cent.html Long story short, the more non-monorail resorts were built on property, and the more buses handled those guests, and the more expensive monorail tracks cost to build, the less reliant WDW was on TTC, but at the time they were built, they thought monorails were the shizznit.

Now, with this concept of transportation hub and the purpose of the TTC explained, I have a riddle for you. Why is there a transportation hub for a monorail system that wasn't even designed as a functional transportation system to begin with?

It was designed to be functional, just not maximally efficient. As you pointed out earlier, it was meant to be a way to enhance the maaaaaaagic of going to the MK. Also, because of all the swampland in the area, that was as close as they could the parking lot.

That adds to the riddle of why is there a transportation out in the middle of nowhere and why do monorail loops reach out to this middle of nowhere from theme parks that are obviously somewhere? You get where I'm coming from. Add all the questions I asked or implied so far.

"However, a new problem was discovered. The area directly in front of the Magic Kingdom was a swamp and would not be suitable for a parking lot. The only solution was to build the parking lot a mile and a half away. The swamp was drained, the muck cleared away, and the Seven Seas Lagoon was born. The Magic Kingdom’s utilidors, the underground tunnel system beneath the park, were built at ground level. The excavated dirt from the swamp was then placed on top of the tunnels and the Magic Kingdom was built on top of this new land. If you notice, you walk uphill from Seven Seas Lagoon to reach the park’s entrance." - http://land.allears.net/blogs/jackspence/2011/04/transportation_and_ticket_cent.html

If the TTC were to truly function in the capacity I described, it would have loops connecting it to the other two parks. The fact that it doesn't even do that makes it even less functional as a transportation hub. If it did have four loops, connecting it to all four parks, it would effectively have four loops connecting nowhere to four somewheres - or four loops going nowhere (or your car, if that's where you parked). So, this makes worse sense.

I think you just verbally rope-a-doped yourself

One way to make sense of it is to build a fifth gate at the TTC parking lot and parking structures there. Now, both monorail loops would actually go somewhere. But this raises more questions than it answers, concerning why some parks have their own parking and why the monorail has a prejudice over the parks it goes to or leaves from.

It also raises the questions - if you're driving to the MK and there's now a 5th park where the TTC is, where do you park? And if you're going to that 5th gate...where do you park?

A centralized parking hub serving on-site hotels and retail for all the parks is the most logical thing I could think of that would make sense of this whole mess. You would also need a separate transit system that would also create a big four point loop connecting the parks for direct park to park transport. Now, that's what I call true park hopping!

Maybe they could also have boats and buses at this Transportation Center, to connect guests to places that the monorail does not. And for people who have yet to buy tickets, they could do this there, too. I wonder what they'd call such a transportation and ticket center...Well, it's the stuff dreams are made of I guess we'll never know really.

 

[PeterAlt]

AND provide transportation. Just because it's not the most efficient kind of transportation doesn't mean that it doesn't provide a transportation service.



Also, at the time Epcot was built, and it was just the two parks to choose from, it was a way to ensure you didn't have to re-park your car. People who wanted to start their day in Epcot and end in MK could park at TTC monorail over and then monorail back on A MONORAIL without dealing with their car again for the entirety of their day. And it was a way to let guests who were staying monorail resorts get to Epcot in a manner that befit the cost of staying in a monorail resort without having to get on something as common as a bus or use their own car. It still provides those services.

Again, just because there are more efficient ways to get somewhere , this doesn't mean the monorail ceases to be a functional way to get from TTC to Epcot. "Everyplace is walking distance if you have the time" - Steven Wright

It is also the de facto parking lot for the Magic Kingdom. People relying on their own cars to get to the MK park at the TTC. It might not be much to look at, but that's its purpose. That's why it's the TRANSPORTATION and Ticket CENTER. The center of Transportation needs at WDW for quite a while before other parks opened up.

Thank heavens you were there. Otherwise the CM may have needed to explain that to your sister which may have taken an additional 10 seconds or so. I mean "No ma'am, this monorail goes to the Transportation and Ticket Center WHERE YOU MUST TRANSFER TO THE MONORAIL OR THE FERRY THAT TAKES YOU TO THE MAGIC KINGDOM." I mean, really, who has time for that crap?

Except the EC monorail loop can, indeed, service the MK. They're called Park Hoppers. Meanwhile, this bit about the history of the TTC might help with your questions: http://land.allears.net/blogs/jackspence/2011/04/transportation_and_ticket_cent.html Long story short, the more non-monorail resorts were built on property, and the more buses handled those guests, and the more expensive monorail tracks cost to build, the less reliant WDW was on TTC, but at the time they were built, they thought monorails were the shizznit.



It was designed to be functional, just not maximally efficient. As you pointed out earlier, it was meant to be a way to enhance the maaaaaaagic of going to the MK. Also, because of all the swampland in the area, that was as close as they could the parking lot.


"However, a new problem was discovered. The area directly in front of the Magic Kingdom was a swamp and would not be suitable for a parking lot. The only solution was to build the parking lot a mile and a half away. The swamp was drained, the muck cleared away, and the Seven Seas Lagoon was born. The Magic Kingdom’s utilidors, the underground tunnel system beneath the park, were built at ground level. The excavated dirt from the swamp was then placed on top of the tunnels and the Magic Kingdom was built on top of this new land. If you notice, you walk uphill from Seven Seas Lagoon to reach the park’s entrance." - http://land.allears.net/blogs/jackspence/2011/04/transportation_and_ticket_cent.html

I think you just verbally rope-a-doped yourself

It also raises the questions - if you're driving to the MK and there's now a 5th park where the TTC is, where do you park? And if you're going to that 5th gate...where do you park?

Maybe they could also have boats and buses at this Transportation Center, to connect guests to places that the monorail does not. And for people who have yet to buy tickets, they could do this there, too. I wonder what they'd call such a transportation and ticket center...Well, it's the stuff dreams are made of I guess we'll never know really.

First, thank you for taking the time to go over all that. I know I wouldn't have the patience to go through it all like you had! Second, there is nothing you said that I disagree with. There is nothing you said that I didn't already know or had thought about before I wrote all that (except the link you provided, which is fascinating stuff - thank you!).

I tend to exaggerate sometimes or use sarcasm as a way to make my point get across, or as a way to interject humor in something that would be dull otherwise. I sometimes forget that not everyone reading knows when I'm using this as a writing style. I apologize for not being clear.

I started thinking about this, with the intention of writing something, under the presumption that there just has to be a better mousetrap (pub intended). So, I asked myself what I would do differently if I was a system-wide Project Manager. To answer that, I took apart the current system and questioned each element of it. The result is what I concluded in what I wrote.

I do know one thing. Even though the current system is faithful in spirit to Walt's original Master Plan for the property, the idea that everything built and planned on the property would be connected to a property-wide monorail and people mover network somehow was lost in the process.

 

[slappy magoo]

I do know one thing. Even though the current system is faithful in spirit to Walt's original Master Plan for the property, the idea that everything built and planned on the property would be connected to a property-wide monorail and people mover network somehow was lost in the process.

Yes because monorail track construction is crazy expensive and will probably never get cheaper. Had monorails become a system of choice for a lot of urban areas, you'd see lots of companies with the know-how and experience to build the and a more competitive bidding process (to say nothing of the infrastructure being in place to make things more inexpensively). But it's a you-snooze-you-lose situation and it's now even more expensive than, say, when Animal Kingdom first opened and there were some vague rumors of connecting all parks and DtD to the TTC via monorail.

Also when WDW was first being developed they had no way to do exactly how it would expand. 20/20 hindsight maybe they would've built MK as close to the center of property as possible, so all other subsequent developments surrounded it versus MK being all the way up north. But that's how it shook out.

 

[monothingie]

And I would ask the same of all your selves. But questions about this thread still remain....

I agree, this should answer it.

 

[PeterAlt]

Yes because monorail track construction is crazy expensive and will probably never get cheaper. Had monorails become a system of choice for a lot of urban areas, you'd see lots of companies with the know-how and experience to build the and a more competitive bidding process (to say nothing of the infrastructure being in place to make things more inexpensively). But it's a you-snooze-you-lose situation and it's now even more expensive than, say, when Animal Kingdom first opened and there were some vague rumors of connecting all parks and DtD to the TTC via monorail.

Also when WDW was first being developed they had no way to do exactly how it would expand. 20/20 hindsight maybe they would've built MK as close to the center of property as possible, so all other subsequent developments surrounded it versus MK being all the way up north. But that's how it shook out.

I agree. As for what they could do now, light rail seems to be the de facto standard and many cities in the US and world-wide are building these systems or expanding old ones. Light rail uses standard gauge tracks, so all parts are standardized for a very competitive industry. Light rail can be built on grade, below grade, above grade, or any combination of these. It's electric and environmentally sound. The trains are light weight (hence its name), making any supports needed for it less expensive to construct. It can be automated and completely grade separated, if designed properly.

As for what they could have done during Phase I construction, they could have anticipated that the system would have to move people beyond the Phase I construction zone, and allow for the installation of switches and track continuation at key areas. If they've done that, all that would have been required would have been a switch near the Contemporary and one near where the TTC is now (for each direction of track) and extensions to EC instead of the separate EC loop.

They did have the future in mind during EC construction, with plans to extend the EC loop to Downtown Disney (then-called WDW Village Resort and Marketplace), but I'll do everyone a favor and not talk about those.

 

[wm49rs]

I agree, this should answer it.

I'm sure it'll play a role in the inevitable backtracking....

 

[Big C 73]

Also when WDW was first being developed they had no way to do exactly how it would expand. 20/20 hindsight maybe they would've built MK as close to the center of property as possible, so all other subsequent developments surrounded it versus MK being all the way up north. But that's how it shook out.

The reason for developing and constructing the Magic Kingdom and resort area was for correlation to Walt Disney's original thesis for the property. Roy Disney ensured the location of the Magic Kingdom and surrounding infrastructure, opposing other members at Walt Disney Productions whom insisted upon the placement of the Magic Kingdom near Interstate I-4. At the time of development for the Magic Kingdom, and preceding the opening of Walt Disney World, the company still also had plans for constructing E.P.C.O.T City, and therefore this was just Phase I of development within the property. The realization of E.P.C.O.T was void as time proceeded, the company was intrigued in developing the Lake Buena Vista community, which would soon inhabit an opposing function to the intended basis. Michael Eisner would indeed produce an abundance of fertility in developments within the property, but these were absent of a central basis in planning to correlate with existing infrastructure.

 

[DBF John]

I think David Brinkley said it best

http://m.youtube.com/?#/watch?v=8Aj7fYJocyE

Its all just one grand experiment.

 

[Pumbas Nakasak]

is the lack of cowbell.

 

[copcarguyp71]

I still say pave over the lagoon and make it a parking lot.

How will they ever be able to sell shares in the Atlantis DVC they most certainly have planned then????

 

[Sans Souci]

It's a bit warm for anoraks, no?

 

[FettFan]

The problem with the monorail system at WDW is that is was never designed to be a transportation system.

 

[Tom]

Every time a thread is started about monorails, a pixie dies.

 

[PeterAlt]

I see where this thread is headed...

MonoFLAIL

 

[PeterAlt]

Every time a thread is started about monorails, a pixie dies.

I hope so because Advantage isn't working!

 

[PeterAlt]

is the lack of cowbell.

True dat, triple stack!

 

[Goofyernmost]

Peter if you are still wondering why you get no respect, which I don't really think is a problem for you anyway, it's because you make statements like it's not a transportation system because it doesn't go directly to your destination. If you go by that criteria the only transportation systems that exist are walking, taxi's and private automobiles. Also covered under that are express trains, (monorails or other) buses. They deliver people to their personal destination and return home.

Buses run in circles, Commuter trains and subways return to the home station. Trucks run one way and then turn around and come back home. Even long distance carriers, in all likelihood, will take you from one hub to another were you switch to another vehicle going where you are going. That would include Buses, Trains and Airplanes. There is no such thing as a trip to "nowhere", they all have to return to where they started. In that process they deliver passengers to specific locations even if it's back to where they started.

So any discussion about the system not being transportation, is total nonsense. In the meantime, sorry that you and your sister had to trudge all the way across the Monorail Platform, it must have been awful for you. Maybe Disney will pay for counseling.

 

[Pumbas Nakasak]

Now that was quality.